Hi Veteran. Instead of talking about what I have shown, my conversation with you always starts at your eschatology. This then has me having to argue from the basis of your eschatology and not examining what I have presented from the Bible. So we're really not discussing the subject of whether or not the Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:51is the same as the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath in Revelation.
I prefer to let the Scripture speak for itself with showing its events, which reveals timing they occur and their connections with the seals, trumpets, and vials throughout Revelation. That reveals events that occur in a parallel timing, but evidently the parallels you see are different than what I see.
I, and others, so I'm not the only one to see this, think Revelation is made up of parallel accounts. I have shown my work and revealed the tool with which I use to discern breaks in Revelation. If the reader wants to know that, it's on the first page of this thread.
This is a part of the salutation common in writing of this era. It expresses not only a singular fact, but a hope. This does not establish a time for the coming on the clouds because it is not set in a linear narrative with which we can compare other specific and unique events, but it does establish that Christ's coming is not in secret, and it is on the clouds for every eye to see Him. Since most people don't live in Israel, this is how the world will see him.
I well know Rev.1:7 is only giving info about Christ's coming, and is not happenning at that point in the Rev. flow. But because of the type of events that begin on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe in Rev.11:15 to the end of the Rev.11 chapter, the time of His coming IS happenning there, even though we don't have there this exact type of statement as given in Rev.1:7. So the Rev.1 example is like a, look and mark these events that occur with Christ's coming, they'll pop up later.
More than a future view, John chronicles everything he sees in the third Heaven of God's presence. If you read the final part of chapter 11, you'll see that an Elder is looking forward to hearing our stories.
I don't think you understand what the third heaven really means. There's really only two heavens in God's Word that I know of (Gen.1:1, "heavens" is plural), the heavenly order above the earth, like clouds, and then the Heavenly dimension where God and the angels dwell. The third heaven is about a third heavenly age of time. John was caught up in the Spirit to be given visions of EVENTS leading up to Christ's coming, and then continuing through Christ's Milennium reign, and then finally... to the third Heavenly age with the new heavens and a new earth timing, i.e., God's Eternity after Satan and the wicked are destroyed. The idea of multiple levels in Heaven comes from pagan mysticism like the Kabbalah, eastern religion, and occultism with the idea of multiple spiritual planes. If I recall, the Kabbalah teaches planes existing below our earthly plane with 'elemental spirits'.
I don't buy that elders want to hear our stories bit. The elders there are declaring how God has taken power to reign.
The Elders are in Heaven before us. To say this scene must happen before the rewards are handed out ignores that that happens after the one 'seven' with the unveiling of the Bride. As of this setting, the Scroll hasn't even been opened yet and all the Seals are intact.
Nope. John is first shown 24 thrones ("seats") only. Then, ... he is shown 24 elders sitting upon them (representing 12 OT Partriarchs and 12 Apostles). It's to show God's Heavenly pattern. The elders don't actually sit upon them until after Christ's gathering. In Matt.19:28 our Lord confirms this, for He said in the
regeneration is when His Apostles will sit upon 12 thrones. If we believe the OT Patriarchs and NT Apostles are already there sitting upon 24 thrones as those elders, then that is to push the idea they have already been made 'perfect', without us. Because some believe they are there at this point in Rev.4, they also wrongly conclude the whole Church must have been raptured, which that isn't true either.
Rev.5:9-10 gives another time marker about these 24 elders which they apply to themselves, which further shows what I'm saying. They declare how THEY were redeemed out of EVERY kindred, tongue, people, and nation. Is a history lesson really needed to understand that the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles did not come from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation? And with Rev.5:10, they rule on the EARTH as priests and kings?
This is not a gathering at all. I think your interpretation of this passage is really off. Having to argue from the basis of your eschatology doesn't make sense when you present things like this... chapters four and five set the stage for what follows with the Seals and then the opened Scroll and its seven Trumpets.
I never said Rev.4-5 was the actual time of Christ's gathering, but as evidence of after the time of His gathering. What you're not seeing there in Rev.4-5 is two timelines given at once. One is about the preparation for the seals, and another is how John is being shown the Heavenly pattern of 24 thrones, and then 24 elders into the future after Christ's coming.
Here you actually have a Day of the Lord reference.
Note that after the sun/moon/star event is the second earthquake of the sixth Seal, and following that the only event John chronicles is the 144,000 and then he reports on the sudden arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven. How did they get there? John doesn' t reveal that here, but it happened, and so it will be revealed in a parallel account. John does not record God's Wrath as coming - he only records the conclusion the wicked come to from hearing what the three Angels said. Again, I covered this before, so any difference remaining means we're just going to have to disagree.
That idea of a "second earthquake" is strictly YOUR idea. There is only ONE mention there of "a great earthquake" on that 6th seal. The events given there happen as a RESULT of that one great earthquake.
The 6th seal event is the time of the day of The LORD, which is also the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. Paul revealed that in 1 Thess.5, as Peter did also in 2 Pet.3:10 forward. And there's further evidence for that in the OT prophets. That's also the time of the "sudden destruction" upon the deceived per Paul in 1 Thess.5. That's God's cup of wrath. That's why the Rev.6:16-17 verses are SPECIFICALLY mentioning that the time of Christ's wrath has come.
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)
You're denying those last two Rev.6 verses show Christ's wrath upon the wicked, whether you like that pointed out to you or not. So you're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with what's written there.
This is the result of the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14, which fits perfectly with the gathering of the Elect in Mt 24:31 out of the Great Tribulation which Jesus said was shortened by the arrival of the Day of the Lord's sun/moon/star event of v. 29.
It does not say the Great Multitude were sealed for the Great Tribulation.
It does show the Elect who come out of the shortened Great Tribulation are in Heaven before the desolations God has decreed, Daniel 9:26 from so long ago, go out from the soon to be opened Scroll.
Rev.7 is especially about the idea of the sealing of God's elect servants PRIOR to the "four winds" blowing on earth (end of this world at Christ's coming). There is no specific mention of a 'rapture' anywhere within that Rev.7 chapter.
Instead, we're given a future view of the great multitude with Christ after His coming, having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of The Lamb Jesus, and "Therefore, are they before the throne of God...". They went through the tribulation in order to do that washing. They don't do that washing of their robes by escaping the tribulation. Through much tribulation we must enter into the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22).
This is why Milennium timing events like the waters of life, no hunger, no tears, is also given as a time marker of what period John is seeing that great multitude in. That's how we know John is being given a future forward view into the Milennium at that point of Rev.7:9 forward.
This doesn't say what you say it says. You are backing into the Bible based on a prior conclusion on your part that Jesus parousia is only realized with the seventh Trumpet. This is not discussing what is in the Bible, but forcing everyone to argue from the basis of your eschatology.
Rev 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by Him That liveth for ever and ever, Who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein,
that there should be time no longer:
7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)
Well, I think it's so easy that a 3rd grader can easily understand it, especially the 7th verse about the sounding of the seventh angel, which is about the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. It's not me that's backing anywhere.
No, I don't think God sends His Two Witnesses to Jerusalem at the sixthTrumpet... They precede Christ's parousia and are on the earth for 1260 days, the whole of the second half of the one 'seven.'
Then maybe you've forgetten how to count then, for the three 'woe' periods are given along with the last three trumpets. The 1st woe - 5th trumpet is the first time period; the 2nd woe - 6th trumpet is a second time period; and the 3rd woe - 7th trumpet is the final time period, literally. Since the 2nd woe does not end until Rev.11:14, everything before that verse is 2nd woe timing back to Rev.9:12. At Rev.9:12-13 is when the 2nd woe began... with the 6th TRUMPET.
Then it's a very, very simple matter to know the 1260 days of their prophesying ENDS within the same 'hour' the 2nd woe ends, and the 3rd woe begins. So you are correct the start of the 1260 days of their prophesying begins prior to Christ's coming, aproximately 1260 days + 3.5 days prior to Christ's coming (per the Scripture). It is Christ's coming that ends the "great tribulation" you know, which I thought you agreed on that point? So I don't know why you're not able to clearly see this 7th trumpet timing at the start of the 3rd woe is the END of the tribulation, and start of His wrath, just as the Rev.11:15-19 verses show.
The Great Earthquake doesn't happen in conjunction with the second Woe. I think you're mixing your Bible up here.
Rev 11:12-14
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
(KJV)
Why must I continually show you the Scripture as if you had never read it?
The third Woe is not Christ's victory... that's a celebration; not a desolation.
Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)
Again, I have to show you. ALL of that is 7th trumpet - 3rd woe timing. Why are you in such denial of that? Who has bewitched you to follow something different?
The end of chapter 11 ends the one 'seven' and its broad overview. A lot of things are missing, but the important part is that we have a good chronological start to figure in the sequence of events which will happen.
Nothing is missing, except phrases some people unreasonably require, like a DIRECT STATEMENT among those verses that says something like, "Hey ya'll, Christ is coming and gathering His saints right here at this point now!"
Your chronology is simply based on the traditions you've been taught, sorry to say. Christ's chronology with those last three trumpets and three woe periods is not. We CANNOT get those events on the 5th trumpet - 1st woe, 6th trumpet - 2nd woe, and 7th trumpet - 3rd woe out of order. Our Lord made sure of that. That's why He chained those woes with the sounding of those specific trumpets! This is WHERE you start, to find out in WHAT ORDER the Revelation events actually belong! It is the height of battle time against His saints.
There is no reference to gathering the Saints at the end of God's desolations on the earth because they were gathered before them. That IS in the linear narrative.
The 6th seal shows the time of Christ's gathering and His wrath, just as the 7th trumpet also does, even though you flat deny BOTH of those timings. The 6th vial ALSO shows the same.
IF YOU SAY A RAPTURE HAPPENS BACK AT REV.4 OR 5, THEN THAT IS THE IDEA OF A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, AND IS FALSE.
This is in parallel to the sixth Seal. Notice that the order of First Fruits to the Harvest of the Great Multitude is preserved. In addition, we now find out why the wicked know God is coming for them in Wrath; they heard what the three Angels said.
Rev.14:1-5 is a future forward look AFTER Christ's coming and gathering of His saints, ALL of His saints. It's a view like the great multitude of Rev.7. Rev.15 mentions another group too, but all His saints are gathered at the same timing. That's also the time of His wrath upon the wicked, and that's why those two views are given in that same Rev.14 chapter.
This is the "how" for the Great Multitude's arrival in Heaven. This is the same scene as Mt 24:31 and 1Th 4:17. THIS is Christ's parousia the Church was told to watch for, because the Church is not in Israel when the God/Magog invasion goes on right before the midpoint abomination. You're not even going to be able to travel there during that period, and after the midpoint abomination is set in place, you'd be hard pressed to escape the "test" of worship or death.
The Heavenly is going to be revealed upon this earth at Christ's coming. Christ's coming is to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, where His saints will be gathered to Him at. That's what the "great earthquake" at His coming is about, per Zech.14 and the Rev.11 7th trumpet events. The elect of Israel are gathered to Christ too, for they also are His Church. Only the unbelieving of Israel are not gatherd. The Gog-Magog Ezek.38-39 event happens JUST PRIOR to Christ's coming, for it's Christ's coming that ends that battle in the middleast. Or did you miss the "two candlesticks" (Churches) standing along with God's two witnesses during the tribulation? And if two symbolic Churches are STILL on earth during that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, the other five Churches are still on earth then too.
By your saying a 'rapture' happens prior to the Gog-Magog northern army coming upon Israel, that would infer another coming of Christ, instead of one. That's confusion. He comes one time only, and destroying that army that comes upon Israel on the last day is what His cup of wrath is especially about! It's also what ends the tribulation. You're trying to separate the several events that happen in the same timing, spreading them out just to TRY and INSERT YOUR COMFORT SAFETY ZONE OF BEING RAPTURED SOMEWHERE OFF THE EARTH! That's not going to happen. WE all will be here on earth until the last day (unless we die sooner).
Revelation chapters 13 through 16 inclusive are a parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4 through 11 (exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in 11:1-13).
Rev.12 is part summary until the 6th verse, which is 1260 day timing. It links with the stinging event of Rev.9, and about the dragon's 42 month reign in Rev.13, which is trib timing. That also is the same timing of the two witnesses, I agree. Rev.14 is mixed with two different timings, as Rev.15 is also. Rev.16 is tribulation timing until the 7th vial.
John is being given multiple views in Rev.14. The firstfruits are about the 144,000 of Rev.7, AFTER the tribulation, not DURING IT AND NOT BEFORE IT. Then the timeline moves back to when Babylon is judged, and a warning about worshipping the beast. And then, a blessing about those who die in Christ from that point forward. Just HOW MANY so-called 'raptures' are there in your view, because if we look at Rev.14 from YOUR perspective, it's like people are coming to Christ and then dying and continually going to Heaven!!! There's only ONE time that Christ gathers His saints to Him.
This is another view of the Great Multitude in verse 2. Notice they are safely inside the Temple when God's Wrath goes against the tares who have been collected in the field of this world.
The Bowl Judgments take time. They are not all at once, or even in a day.
Wrong. Rev.16 shows the beast still at work on earth all the way up to the 7th vial. And Christ gives a warning to His saints on earth on the 6th vial. So the saints in Rev.15 that got the victory over the beast is a future view after Christ's coming and wrath, while the vials go back to tribulation timing.
This is a whole other subject. Who is left after the Church is taken? One such group are the Remnant Jews who do not yet believe in Christ, but whom God has set aside and shepherds through the desolations He will bring upon the earth. They are going to have to MOVE in a moments notice or bear their shame...
The 6th-7th vial events is not "a whole other subject". It is about TRIBULATION TIMING, AND THEN CHRIST'S COMING WITH A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, THE SAME EARTHQUAKE OF REV.11 AND REV.6, and the time of His wrath. Everyone will go through the tribulation, you included. And that tribulation will be a TEST upon us, to see who we will worship. And for some of us, by refusing to bow to the image of the beast, we will be killed. That's the same test upon all.
I do not think Revelation is written like a novel. I have covered this already. Do you read what others write so as to understand what they say? If so, why do you repeat this false charge here against me?
What charge would that be? That you expect Revelation to follow a linear order against the Scripture evidence of Christ's coming on the 6th-7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial? That your doctrine inserts a false 'rapture' into Scripture where there is none? You seem well educated, but mainly according to traditions, and appear unable to get very far from the tether of those who taught you. We shouldn't mistake tradition as a safety-net.
By the way, I'm quite familiar with jet engines and aircraft. I was a B-52 crew chief in the USAF during the Vietnam era.
