The Last Trumpet Is Not The Seventh Trumpet.

[Foreigner]

Sorry Paul, but just because you state it to be fact does not make it the definitive word on the topic.

There are scores of senior lifelong Holy Spirit filled Christians much more learned than you and I, having done years more research and seeking God with their whole hearts that still cannot agree on this subject.

There are some learned scholars (again more qualified than anyone currently on this BB) who would agree with you totally on the Rapture and the Mark of the Best. There are others - just as learned and qualified - who would absolutely disagree on both your statements. There are others still who would agree on the Rapture but not the Mark of the Beast. Still others who would disagree on the Rapture but agree on the Mark of the Beast.

Your opinion that it is a "doctrine of Satan" is just that - an opinion.

Neither you nor I are qualified to say that the discussion is closed.

Yes you can close the thread and ensure another "Rapture" thread is not started. I have no problem with that.

But neither you nor I - nor anyone else here - from either side of the discussion - has shown that the subject is settled.

 

[teleiosis]

Does anyone here on this board actually want to comment on the theme of this one particular thread without rancor or dragging in other issues?

 

[Paul]

Paul, I have to laugh out loud at your post. I am SO sorry to hear I already have an impression in my hand so I can buy and sell. As I am thus not Christian, and unworthy of eternal life based on my eschatology, ....

When you hear these words spoken the final time, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," do it and get up off your knee, because you will have been worshipping The Antichrist. That is where your eschatology is leading you. I pray that your eyes and the eyes of many other on this board will be opened by then.

 

[teleiosis]

Actually, it didn't address anything specifically mentioned in my response to your first post; you have not identified the impression which condemns those who have it. Your post was unsolicited and off topic, and you just reiterated your point.

 

[242006]

I am SO sorry to hear I already have an impression in my hand so I can buy and sell.

The 'mark of the beast' is not an 'impression' in your hand or your forehead. If you look at the vials of God's wrath, you will see that some christians [Rapturists for sure] have already taken the mark of the beast ahead of the arrival of the fallen angels and Satan. Hence, it cannot be a voluntary or involuntary impression on one's hand or forehead, as none of the entities, who would require such impression [assuming arguendo that you are correct], are on the scene prior to the first vial of God's wrath.

 

[Martin W.]

So what is the majority opinion here? Amillennial? Preterist? I thought most were Post-Trib, but like I said, I'm new here.

I allow for the possibility that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. Or maybe the christian will get a glimpse of the beginning of the tribulation before being taken.

It is a difficult subject but (in my opinion) the pieces fit pretty good if there is an early rapture. When I try to piece together an end of tribulation rapture I encounter many snags.

I cannot prove the timing of the rapture. So far nobody else can either. And if that is the case , I feel nobody can prove when it will not happen either. It is a best guess either way.

I also keep in mind that God has a history of catching mankind unaware when he takes action. Maybe something will happen none of us are expecting.

Think of the surprise of the flood , or how Jesus arrived , born in a barn , riding on a donkey , hanging on a cross ..... nobody was expecting that.

For thousands of years nobody was expecting Israel to be regathered and prosper the way it has.

As well informed as we are today ,a part of me still prepares to be caught by surprise when God drops back for his next visit.

Best regards.

Martin.

 

[Foreigner]

My opinion leans towards post-Tribulation, but I am quite aware that there are large numbers of Spirit-filled God-seeking Christians who have studied scriptures for decades that still disagree on this topic.
I can find scripture supporting the pre-Tribulation idea, as well.
The key is simply to press into God, work to help as many souls as possible come to Him and pray that you are prepared for whatever happens.

 

[242006]

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

As Jesus informs us in the parable of the tares of the field, both the tares and the wheat will be harvested at the same [end] time. There is never a separate 'rapture' of the church, whether it be pretrib, midtrib, or post-trib.

 

[veteran]

Well that happens; that's why we share and discuss.

I look at the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) as one long, broad overview to the end-times which includes the beginning of birth pains, which I think happens outside the "birthing" of the Millennium of Christ's reign when the "water breaks" with the start of the one 'seven,' to carry the birth analogy along. To wit: I look at the first Seal spirit being unleashed as fostering a whole system which is against Christ because there are many anti-Christs apart from the "ruler who will come" who sets up the talking image of himself through the false prophet in front of the Curtain inside the Temple which has yet to be built in Jerusalem. Anything which takes away from Jesus, or allows people to look for "salvation" besides in Christ, is a type of anti-Christ. A lot of "-ism's" fit this bill; whenever something exists which people put their trust in then can be termed as being against Christ.

Well, it's obvious when one reads starting at Rev.8 through 11, a picture of trumpets is being given that signal battle, and when our Lord Jesus gives the three woes with the last three trumpets, that's for a special emphasis, much like the woe chapters of Isaiah, which have many events about the end. So by Rev.9, one should have already understood the information imparted in the seals, and understand the trumpets are given as another parallel to the seals. This is supported more by the fact that our Lord Jesus only gave seven major signs for the end in His Olivet discourse, and not twenty one different signs to individually match each seal, trumpet, and vial.

Agreed on 1:7; and you do admit there is nothing in chapter 11 latter half to specify the gathering at that point. I will agree it covers the end of the one 'seven' though.

We may agree that Rev.1:7 is info only of when Christ does return, but not on the layout of Rev.11 with the last half of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel. By the time the 7th trumpet sounds, that final "one week" of Daniel will be over. The reason for that is simple. Rev.11:15 on the 7th trumpet -3rd woe to the end of that chapter covers Milennium time events involving the saints. Christ's Milennium won't start until after His coming and our gathering. That's how we should KNOW FOR SURE His coming and our gathering has to be included in that. I think you need to weigh the doctrine or method you're holding on to that's preventing you from seeing that.

It is my own thinking. I started with Paul's term for what a person he knew did, went "downward" with the fifth Seal for a "second Heaven" and finally looked at the "ends of Heaven" Jesus mentioned, or Paradise as He described in Luke 16 as the "first."

This answered the question for me as to how: 1. We go to Heaven when we die, 2. Yet Jesus has to come back for us so we can be with Him, and 3. That we only "arrive" in the presence of the Father after the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those Elect who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation nearly destroys them all.

I like your definition of Heaven, and I've read lots of commentaries about it. I am talking about a different plane, or another aspect of the same thing though. Both ideas can exist simultaneously. I did not come up with this from paganism though, Paul was the one who termed it the third.

I figured the "third Heaven" idea was an assumption, because many make that assumption. The "end of heaven" idea in Matt.24 is simply about the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him when He comes. It also aludes to the saints still alive on earth at that point, because the "four winds" He gave with it involves the last trump change of the saints on earth, in order to be joined with them. So at that point, it's signaling the 'heavenly' dimension will be revealed upon the earth right then, i.e., the Rev.1:7 event.

Well, like I said, the only idea of multiple heavens in God's Word is about the firmament around the earth, and then about the Heavenly dimension that exists behind a vail where God and the angels dwell. Whether you got the multiple level heaven dimension idea from paganism or not, it still is a pagan idea. In Rev.12:8 when no longer is Satan's place found in Heaven, many think that was about Satan's original fall. It was not, as Job gives evidence after his fall that he is still able to appear before God's Throne in the Heavenly dimension. Satan's abode of the bottomless pit is behind a vail in the Heavenly dimension also, but in a place of separation from God like our Lord Jesus showed in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Our Lord Jesus actually matched descriptions of the Heavenly separations in the book of Enoch with that example.

The idea of being "caught up" has already been shown to us in 2 Cor.12 and even with John in Revelation. It's the same Greek word 'harpazo' that used in 1 Thess.4 for the saints being "caught up" with the asleep saints at Christ's coming. Apostle Paul said he didn't know whether that one caught up in 2 Cor.12 was in the body, or out of the body. That suggests that the part of our being that is "caught up" to the Heavenly at Christ's coming is of the Heavenly order dimension. That would mean the saints on earth must be changed to the resurrection body ("spiritual body") first, and then are siezed to Christ. That also means the wicked on earth are changed at that moment also, to the "resurrection of damnation" Christ said would happen at His coming also, per John 5:28-29.

And if both the resurrection of life, and the resurrection of damnation happen at the same time like our Lord showed in John 5, then it means the "second resurrection" of Rev.20 a thousand years later is about something else.

Even though the majority choose to pass over the John 5:28-29 evidence of both the just and the unjust being resurrected at the same time when Christ comes, I will not pass over that Scripture and pretend like it's not written. This is why Apostle Paul also said it was his "hope" there will be both a resurrection of the just, and the unjust, per Acts.24:15. His hope was that that at least some of the unjust would be turned to Christ DURING His thousand years reign. The OT prophets speak of a time after Christ's return, showing it will be a great time of teaching God's Word. And the priests who allowed Israel to stray bearing their shame (Ezek.44). It is also the time when those of the "synagogue of Satan" will bow in worship to Christ before the feet of His elect, per the Rev.3:9 verse. This reveals the wicked are going to be changed at Christ's coming also. Another pointer to this is the "outer darkness", a place of separation at that time which will allow the unjust to see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God (Luke 13:26-28). The wicked are not going to still be in literal graves.

I am in a hotel in Dallas (I didn't make it to Indianapolis last night due to some storms here) and I don't have a Bible here. However, as God rules, He also allows us to rule in His stead. While He will judge, I know of passages in which He passes on that authority to us or others, like how the Apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel after the second Resurrection.


I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree with your logic. The Elders have thrones... they have already passed the test. I think they were captives that Jesus led in His train when He first went to see the Father after He met Mary in the Garden.

I have to get off the hotel computer now... it's a shared thing. I'll try and respond more tomorrow when I'm home.

The idea that Christ's servants are made priests and kings is about ruling WITH Him, not in His stead. That timing is ONLY for AFTER His coming, for that's when the rewards are handed out, and not before. That marker of being made priests and kings is given about the 24 elders in the Rev.5 example. And furthermore, the very one our Lord Jesus Christ gave His Book of Revelation to write down for the Churches was in a prison on the Isle of Patmos, still alive on earth when he was given that 24 elder vision. I speak of Apostle John, whom would be included in those 24 Elders if they are indeed made up of the 12 Apostles of Christ. This is really simple to figure out.

 

[teleiosis]

Well, it's obvious when one ... understand the trumpets are given as another parallel to the seals.

Ah, no. The whole point of the Seals is to open the Scroll and read the writing thereon.

Rev 5:1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

​

Notice after the seventh Seal is broken, no one "reads" per se, but seemingly, all of a sudden, John sees seven Angels with seven Trumpets.

Rev 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

​

At this point, the Great Multitude is already in Heaven.

So the point of the Seals is to open the Scroll, and then, as joined by the conjunction "and" in the Greek, John sees the Angels and they were given seven Trumpets.
The Trumpets announce the various desolations God has decreed.

Dan 9:26 After the sixty–two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

​

I propose those desolations, which have been decreed from so long ago, have been stored on the Scroll, and the Wrath of God goes out, not at the sixth Seal, or even with the first; but only with the Trumpets.

However, the fact that the Seals "seal" the Scroll, and must be opened before the Scroll can be read -
- and since no "reading" actually is done, but various desolations go forth with the Trumpets
= the Seals precede the Trumpets; they are not parallel.

Mark

 

[Martin W.]

The return of the Lord is entirely decided by him alone. Our opinions change nothing. Our interpretations change nothing. One of the messages of the bible is how wrong men and women can be trying to tell other men and women what God is doing.

Within that historical teaching are a few glimpses of a few people who got it right. Who are these people , and what did they do different.

ArnieM
Martin W.
A.M.M.
WDS.MB.CA.

 

[Martin W.]

Mark. I find you are one of the few who are capable of proper interpretation..At least as good as possible with the limited information we are given for now.. Carry on.

Martin W.
A.M.M.
WDS.MB.CA.

 

[242006]

The return of the Lord is entirely decided by him alone. Our opinions change nothing. Our interpretations change nothing. One of the messages of the bible is how wrong men and women can be trying to tell other men and women what God is doing.

Within that historical teaching are a few glimpses of a few people who got it right. Who are these people , and what did they do different.

ArnieM
Martin W.
A.M.M.
WDS.MB.CA.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Unless you believe Paul to be a fraud, then a true Christian knows that the Lord does not return until there is a falling away [Rapture] and the son of perdition, who is Satan himself, sitting in the temple of God [in Jerusalem].

You are partially correct in that no one knows the day; however, you are mistaken in your claim that we do not know what God is doing. God, through Paul, has informed us as to these important sequence of events, which will take place prior to Christ's return.

 

[Paul]

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Unless you believe Paul to be a fraud, then a true Christian knows that the Lord does not return until there is a falling away [Rapture] and the son of perdition, who is Satan himself, sitting in the temple of God [in Jerusalem].

You are partially correct in that no one knows the day; however, you are mistaken in your claim that we do not know what God is doing. God, through Paul, has informed us as to these important sequence of events, which will take place prior to Christ's return.

The apostasy of our day involves far more than just those that believe in the rapture.

 

[teleiosis]

Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, his earliest letters, distinguish themselves as being highly eschatological. The two letters contain a basic sequence of events as well as add some important details found nowhere else. The issue here is how certain words are used by predominantly the Pre-Tribulation school of scholars. This section will examine first how apostesia is used.

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3, Paul writes that certain conditions precede the Day of the Lord and the gathering of believers to reassure the Thessalonians that they have not missed this seminal event. One of the conditions is termed “rebellion” and it comes from the Greek word apostesia. Some background is required since this word has become a one-word test like the word you in Revelation 4:1 to place the rapture before the appearance of the anti-Christ. The word translated in the NIV as rebellion is translated in the KJV as falling away and in the NASB as apostasy, which has the best word for word translation. While a minor point, one school of eschatology makes a major leap from a single translation that allows for an interpretation quite different than a plain reading of apostesia.

KJV: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

NIV 2Th 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NASB 2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

​

Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice in their book Charting the End Times, make the assertion that the first seven English Bibles dating from the Wycliffe Bible in 1384 to the Geneva Bible in 1608 are the defining source for rendering what is read as apostesia as departing first to support a pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church. In the first editions of the English Bible going back to Wycliffe, apostesia is translated more along the lines of its root word, aphistemi, which means to fall away and is translated as departing first. Using aphistemi in the nominal sense for apostesia would seem to support a position whereby the rapture happens first. However, just because this is the first translational use of apostesia does not indicate it is the best word choice for it in a word-for-word translational sense. Precedence should not dictate meaning; just because a mistake has been made, does not mean it should be grandfathered into actuality of interpretation.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure does not infer the physical departure of the Church. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:

“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

​

LaHaye and Ice use 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 as the keystone for a pre-Tribulation rapture, based on using departing first in the normal sense of movement, as a departure from a place. This is far removed from the sense of apostesia as a departure from the law or an article of faith. Their conclusion links the gathering together in the first verse of chapter two with the departing from the law in the third verse as the same thing. But saying the apostesia is the Rapture gives no assurance to the Thessalonians they did not miss it because the very action they are to look for comes after the event Paul gives them to identify it. LaHaye and Ice ignore this illogic, because putting the Rapture before the man of lawlessness appears supports Pre-Tribulation eschatology’s priori assumptions.

Instead Paul is setting an outside event as a precursor for the expected return of our Lord and this apostasy or departure is linked directly to the man of sin or lawlessness. LaHay and Ice neglect the conditional word until expressed in the Greek as ean me proton, a conditional and a prime particle and an adverb as setting a condition that must be satisfied before the Day of the Lord comes with its attendant gathering. ean represents something under certain circumstances actual or liable to happen, while me means not, lest, (used for qualified negation) and proton from protos, meaning first.—Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible p.1644, 1666 and 1679. Don’t let anyone deceive you (about the Day of the Lord having already come) for lest certain circumstances first rebellion occurs and… is set as a precursor. All the conditions through the end of 2 Thess 2:4 have to occur before the Day of the Lord occurs. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they have not missed the gathering because they have not missed the Day of the Lord and before that can happen this man will set himself in God’s Temple and proclaim himself God. The rebellion then, is not the rapture as maintained by Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice using departing first in that manner as presented in their book, Charting the End Times, p. 38.

In Charting the End Times, LaHaye and Ice write:

However, if the more popular view of “falling away” or rebellion is the true meaning, then apostesia would refer to the career of the anti-Christ during the Tribulation. The important truth here is “that day” or the glorious appearing will not occur until the “son of perdition” has been revealed (see Revelation 12-13).—p.38

​

While the LaHaye and Ice acknowledgement an alternative reading it is dismissed without further consideration. They do set the Day of the Lord after anti-Christ is revealed, but they separate the Rapture from the Day of the Lord. Using the word apostesia in a way that is against any normal meaning allows them to set their eschatology on a one word test, and that test fails to be convincing. In fact, it actually has to twist the meaning of apostesia from a departure from faith to the departure of the faithful.

apostesia does not mean "Rapture."

 

[242006]

The apostasy of our day involves far more than just those that believe in the rapture.

It is true that many churches promote false doctrine. I have even heard that eschatology is not taught in Catholic Church. Unless one knows for certain that the first superhuman entity on the scene is Satan, who is pretending to be Christ, the probability of deception is quite high among non-Rapture churches.

I try to make a distinction between the innocent, who end up taking the mark of the beast as a result of poor scholarship within their respective churches [including the innocent within the Rapture religion], and those Rapturists, who have been shown the Truth and, yet, choose to delude themselves with the big lie of Rapture. When we are informed of the damnation of the Rapturists in 2 Thes. 2, I would surmise that God is speaking of those who willingly decided to believe the lie of Rapture after being shown the Truth. In addition to the 2 Thes. 2 scriptures, I base my position on Isa. 28:13. Those, who God will damn, will have been taught the Truth.

 

[omnicopy]

Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians, his earliest letters, distinguish themselves as being highly eschatological. The two letters contain a basic sequence of events as well as add some important details found nowhere else. The issue here is how certain words are used by predominantly the Pre-Tribulation school of scholars. This section will examine first how apostesia is used.

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3, Paul writes that certain conditions precede the Day of the Lord and the gathering of believers to reassure the Thessalonians that they have not missed this seminal event. One of the conditions is termed “rebellion” and it comes from the Greek word apostesia. Some background is required since this word has become a one-word test like the word you in Revelation 4:1 to place the rapture before the appearance of the anti-Christ. The word translated in the NIV as rebellion is translated in the KJV as falling away and in the NASB as apostasy, which has the best word for word translation. While a minor point, one school of eschatology makes a major leap from a single translation that allows for an interpretation quite different than a plain reading of apostesia.

KJV: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

NIV 2Th 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NASB 2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

​

Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice in their book Charting the End Times, make the assertion that the first seven English Bibles dating from the Wycliffe Bible in 1384 to the Geneva Bible in 1608 are the defining source for rendering what is read as apostesia as departing first to support a pre-Tribulation rapture of the Church. In the first editions of the English Bible going back to Wycliffe, apostesia is translated more along the lines of its root word, aphistemi, which means to fall away and is translated as departing first. Using aphistemi in the nominal sense for apostesia would seem to support a position whereby the rapture happens first. However, just because this is the first translational use of apostesia does not indicate it is the best word choice for it in a word-for-word translational sense. Precedence should not dictate meaning; just because a mistake has been made, does not mean it should be grandfathered into actuality of interpretation.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure does not infer the physical departure of the Church. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:

“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

​

LaHaye and Ice use 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 as the keystone for a pre-Tribulation rapture, based on using departing first in the normal sense of movement, as a departure from a place. This is far removed from the sense of apostesia as a departure from the law or an article of faith. Their conclusion links the gathering together in the first verse of chapter two with the departing from the law in the third verse as the same thing. But saying the apostesia is the Rapture gives no assurance to the Thessalonians they did not miss it because the very action they are to look for comes after the event Paul gives them to identify it. LaHaye and Ice ignore this illogic, because putting the Rapture before the man of lawlessness appears supports Pre-Tribulation eschatology’s priori assumptions.

Instead Paul is setting an outside event as a precursor for the expected return of our Lord and this apostasy or departure is linked directly to the man of sin or lawlessness. LaHay and Ice neglect the conditional word until expressed in the Greek as ean me proton, a conditional and a prime particle and an adverb as setting a condition that must be satisfied before the Day of the Lord comes with its attendant gathering. ean represents something under certain circumstances actual or liable to happen, while me means not, lest, (used for qualified negation) and proton from protos, meaning first.—Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible p.1644, 1666 and 1679. Don’t let anyone deceive you (about the Day of the Lord having already come) for lest certain circumstances first rebellion occurs and… is set as a precursor. All the conditions through the end of 2 Thess 2:4 have to occur before the Day of the Lord occurs. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they have not missed the gathering because they have not missed the Day of the Lord and before that can happen this man will set himself in God’s Temple and proclaim himself God. The rebellion then, is not the rapture as maintained by Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice using departing first in that manner as presented in their book, Charting the End Times, p. 38.

In Charting the End Times, LaHaye and Ice write:

However, if the more popular view of “falling away” or rebellion is the true meaning, then apostesia would refer to the career of the anti-Christ during the Tribulation. The important truth here is “that day” or the glorious appearing will not occur until the “son of perdition” has been revealed (see Revelation 12-13).—p.38

​

While the LaHaye and Ice acknowledgement an alternative reading it is dismissed without further consideration. They do set the Day of the Lord after anti-Christ is revealed, but they separate the Rapture from the Day of the Lord. Using the word apostesia in a way that is against any normal meaning allows them to set their eschatology on a one word test, and that test fails to be convincing. In fact, it actually has to twist the meaning of apostesia from a departure from faith to the departure of the faithful.

apostesia does not mean "Rapture."

I totally agree with you that it does not, indeed, mean rapture. The reason why Tim LeHaye and Ice can't not acknowledge that truth is that they are part of the falling away. Those who are of the falling away are going to fight tooth and nail to keep their false doctrines. They are in error. The falling away that Paul speak about is the falling away of the churches. It has now occurred and taken years to have done so.

Don't worry over those who continue to do this, it is just still part of keeping them in the great delusion. You probably aren't going to stop it because this is a very strong delusion. I'm still trying to get my arms around understanding it. Same reason that Jesus taught in parables!

Kim

 

[teleiosis]

I'm not going to start saying who is saved and who isn't saved. Now if we get to the midpoint, and folk are "falling away" by worshipping the beast, or taking his mark, then they're like the foolish five virgins and they will be locked out of the wedding feast of the Lamb.

I look at apostasy as whenever a person or group of people goes against the commands we were given. For instance, if a person or body of believers thinks that sexual immorality is "okay," then they're in apostasy. Still I have to allow that they can repent, and God is faithful to forgive.

I think one of the major attacks upon the Church has been the homosexual movement. I think this radical element of our society, which has been responsible for a lot of what we call "politically correct" will be the basis for future oppression against the Church. When they claim we condemn them to Hell, or condemn the very basis of their being since they define themselves first by what they do which is sexually impure, then in a perfectly politically correct world they can 'shut us up.' And that is exactly what I think they want us to do: stop proselytizing. We're commanded to do spread the Gospel. Will we do it when it means being fired from our jobs, ostracized in our communities and even punished criminally?

But when we get into the world of eschatology, I really think we ought to go easy on ourselves. We are not saved on the basis of our being able to "figure it all out." We're only saved through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now do I think strict adherents of various eschatologies can get into trouble? Absolutely. I think the warnings Jesus gave about looking for Him in all the wrong places apply to those who are Pre-Trib. I think the warnings about the mark of the beast apply to Preterists and Amillennialists. I think these people might be emotionally and spiritually ill-equipped for hardship and devilish snares. If, however, they keep the faith and adhere first to the Gospel and then to all the warnings in Revelation, even if they don't necessarily believe them; then they might "make it," and keep the faith and not panic and follow false Christs or take the mark of the beast and so be doomed.

Post-Trib believers are prepared to go through all that. Pre-Wrath too. Those who are Pan-Millennial are on safe ground as well. The best folk are the ones who are ready to go any day because they're living their faith one day at a time, and who also expect trouble in this world. ...And I think we're going to get plenty of trouble before we see Jesus, but we are not to incur His Wrath.

 

[veteran]

Ah, no. The whole point of the Seals is to open the Scroll and read the writing thereon.

Rev 5:1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”

​

Notice after the seventh Seal is broken, no one "reads" per se, but seemingly, all of a sudden, John sees seven Angels with seven Trumpets.

Rev 8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

​

At this point, the Great Multitude is already in Heaven.

Treating the separate visions John was given in Revelation as if they occur in chronological fashion the way they are written has misled you from seeing how the seals, trumpets, and vials, are all parallels within a time period of seven major signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. That's why you openly deny the events pointing to Christ's coming and time of His wrath that are given on the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet, and 7th vial.

SIXTH SEAL:
Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

SEVENTH TRUMPET:
Rev 11:13-18
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

SEVENTH VIAL:
Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(KJV)


So the great multitude shown in Rev.7 after the seven seals, IS NOT about their being gathered prior to the 7th trumpet, nor prior to the 7th vial. The start of Rev.7 is even a move back in timeline to before the tribulation with God's elect's being sealed in prep for it.

What you're trying to insert is actually a Pre-Trib "secret rapture", with the Church being 'raptured' out before the tribulation, when Rev.7 reveals the great multitude came out of great tribulation only BY WASHING THEIR ROBES IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, meaning they went through the great tribulation.

ANY idea that great multitude ESCAPED the great tribulation IS the false Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine.

I think you well see the order I'm pointing out to you by the scripture evidence I've layed before you, but you still would rather believe what you've been taught by men's traditions on Revelation layout, and as of now,

I believe you ARE a believer on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, and not a believer of a Post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering at all. I sensed from the beginning it was the Pre-tribulational "secret rapture" you actually believe in, and now I'm convinced.

 

[veteran]

I'm not going to start saying who is saved and who isn't saved. Now if we get to the midpoint, and folk are "falling away" by worshipping the beast, or taking his mark, then they're like the foolish five virgins and they will be locked out of the wedding feast of the Lamb.

I look at apostasy as whenever a person or group of people goes against the commands we were given. For instance, if a person or body of believers thinks that sexual immorality is "okay," then they're in apostasy. Still I have to allow that they can repent, and God is faithful to forgive.

I think one of the major attacks upon the Church has been the homosexual movement. I think this radical element of our society, which has been responsible for a lot of what we call "politically correct" will be the basis for future oppression against the Church. When they claim we condemn them to Hell, or condemn the very basis of their being since they define themselves first by what they do which is sexually impure, then in a perfectly politically correct world they can 'shut us up.' And that is exactly what I think they want us to do: stop proselytizing. We're commanded to do spread the Gospel. Will we do it when it means being fired from our jobs, ostracized in our communities and even punished criminally?

But when we get into the world of eschatology, I really think we ought to go easy on ourselves. We are not saved on the basis of our being able to "figure it all out." We're only saved through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now do I think strict adherents of various eschatologies can get into trouble? Absolutely. I think the warnings Jesus gave about looking for Him in all the wrong places apply to those who are Pre-Trib. I think the warnings about the mark of the beast apply to Preterists and Amillennialists. I think these people might be emotionally and spiritually ill-equipped for hardship and devilish snares. If, however, they keep the faith and adhere first to the Gospel and then to all the warnings in Revelation, even if they don't necessarily believe them; then they might "make it," and keep the faith and not panic and follow false Christs or take the mark of the beast and so be doomed.

Post-Trib believers are prepared to go through all that. Pre-Wrath too. Those who are Pan-Millennial are on safe ground as well. The best folk are the ones who are ready to go any day because they're living their faith one day at a time, and who also expect trouble in this world. ...And I think we're going to get plenty of trouble before we see Jesus, but we are not to incur His Wrath.

Don't you realize you're talking in circles Mark? With your previous post you just revealed that you believe the great mutltiude of Rev.7 are 'raptured' BEFORE the 7th trumpet has sounded!!! THAT is also what those on the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" believe also!

As for the "falling away" Apostle Paul taught, in what association with other events did he give that idea? It was in association with the false working of the "man of sin", "son of perdition", the false one who is setup himself up over all that is worshipped, so that he AS God, sits in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Once we understand just WHAT it is that he associated the idea of "falling away" with, the word 'apostasia' becomes very clear that's it is NOT simply about falling away to do sins of the world, but the idea of falling away to worship the "another Jesus", an imposter that comes working great wonders and signs to deceive the majority into really thinking he is our Lord Jesus Christ, a particular pseudo-Christ that our Lord Jesus forewarned in His Olivet discourse, which IS, one of the 7 signs of the end Christ gave.

No wonder when Christ does return, He will tell those who didn't wait on Him to get away from Him, because they instead hastily bowed in worship to a fake messiah who comes first. That is the great theme of the spiritual virgin metaphors in God's Word, staying a chaste virgin for Christ, waiting for His coming. And I'm surprised that so few have understood who Paul was pointing to with the false one of 2 Thess.2, for the act of wanting to be God, coveting His Throne, and be worshipped in place of God, is what Satan's original rebellion was about. The 2 Thess.2:3-4 warning is a direct link to Satan as that man of sin and son of perdition.

With that in mind, that it will be Satan himself coming to work wonders and miracles on earth to deceive the majority into thinking he is God, that overshadows ANY type thinking of the falling away being simply about falling to the ways of this world. A believer on Christ bowing in worship to the devil thinking he is our Lord Jesus, and then our Lord Jesus shows up to reveal that false one for who he really is, what a shock and in great shame those will be in. That is the type of "strong delusion" Apostle Paul was actually pointing to, and he pointed to that as the type also in 2 Cor.11 about the "another Jesus." Not about many antichrists, but a PARTICULAR antichrist, the devil himself.

This is why those like myself take this matter of knowing the times and the seasons leading up to our Lord's coming as being so important, and also why I give such strong warnings against 'rapture' doctrines of men.