The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[GodsGrace]

Clearly you have not read the Law when God told Eve after they had sinned,

Your husband shall rule over you

Eve was submitted to her husband, which is why wives must submit to husbands. The sign that a woman has come under submission to a husband is the veil. I have a study on this here, The Tzniut, Wives and Head Coverings | Wisdom of God . The apostle Paul mandates it.

Did Jesus mandate it?

 

[Rev20]

Can angels not sin? And we know what happens to them if they do, they are never forgiven. So, even if it were possible for someone who has the holy spirit to fall away, if they do sin, they can never be brought to repentance again. This is how serious sin is for anyone who is baptized with the holy spirit.

christiang, earlier you wrote, "You're not getting it, do you not understand that someone who is baptized with the holy spirit can NEVER sin again?"

Now you are saying, "even if it were possible for someone who has the holy spirit to fall away". You sound confused.

The author of the Hebrews certainly appeared to think it was possible for one to fall away after receiving the power of the holy spirit. Christ even foretold a falling away:

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another." -- Mat 24:9-10 ESV

Christ's epistles to the seven churches in Asia are loaded with warnings against falling away. For example:

"But I have this against you (Ephesus), that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent." -- Rev 2:4-5 ESV

Peter gave this warning:

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability." -- 2Pet 3:17 ESV


Why all the warnings? It seems the Judaizers (those promoting the law of Moses) were making many Christians fall away. For example:

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." -- Gal 5:4 ESV

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." -- Rev 2:9-10 KJV

All in Asia abandoned Paul (e.g., his teachings), at least at time he wrote this letter:

"Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you. You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes." -- 2Tim 1:14-15 NASB

That falling away by those in Asia may have been the reason for Christ's urgent warnings to the seven Churches in the Revelation.


In any case, you appear to have fallen into the same literary trap that the rulers of first-century Jerusalem fell into, which ultimately led to their destruction:

"But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation [the anointing and ministry of Christ]: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." -- Isa 28:13-18 KJV

All of that was fulfilled in the first century.

Perhaps everything will make more sense to you if you start relying on every Word of God, rather than a verse here and a verse there (that is, "here a little, and there a little").

Rev

 

[Rev20]

I am self righteous because I teach living a holy life free of sin in accordance to scripture? You would rather I fill your ears with, "oh, carry on sinning, surely God will continue forgiving you as you live your life how you want." Indeed the way to life is abhorred by those who are deceived and perishing.

You remind me of the Pharisee in this parable:

"The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess." -- Luk 18:11-12 KJV

God help you, christiang.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

So what's the difference between the old covenant and the new?

The old covenant (also called the "Law") was given to the children of Israel at Sinai and comprised over 600 commandments and ordinances, which was taught and administered by those in the tribe of Levi. The later prophets were also considered part of the Law, as mentioned in the new testament. For example, this quote ("I said, ye are gods") came from Psalms 82:6:

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" -- John 10:34 KJV


After Israel broke the old covenant, the Lord promised them a new one where his laws would be written in their hearts. This is the promise:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." -- Jer 31:31-33 KJV

The Hebrews 8 provides more detail.


Jesus summarized all the law (the law that he writes into the hearts of the faithful) as simply:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Mat 7:12 KJV

Jesus provided more detail in this passage:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -- Mat 22:36-40 KJV

John explained that they who love others are born of God:

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." -- 1John 4:7-8 KJV

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Every new Covenant does not abolish the older ones but adds to them or changes them in some way to make them better.

There is no evidence of that. However, there is plenty of evidence that Jesus (the husband) died to release Israel (the wife) from the bondage of the old covenant (the law). The best evidence is probably found in Romans 7:1-4,

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." -- Rom 7:1-4 KJV

Here's your scripture: Mathew 5:17
Jesus did not come to Abolish the law.

What is the rest of the passage?

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." -- Mat 5:17-18 KJV

Jesus said, all that was written would be fulfilled in the days that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." -- Luk 21:20-22 KJV

Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies of Cestius Gallus in A.D. 66. Cestius withdrew his troops a short time later, giving Christians the opportunity to leave Jerusalem and run for the hills before things got too out of hand.

The part about "heaven and earth" passing is another story.

Rev

 

[christiang]

christiang, earlier you wrote, "You're not getting it, do you not understand that someone who is baptized with the holy spirit can NEVER sin again?"

Now you are saying, "even if it were possible for someone who has the holy spirit to fall away". You sound confused.

The author of the Hebrews certainly appeared to think it was possible for one to fall away after receiving the power of the holy spirit. Christ even foretold a falling away:

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another." -- Mat 24:9-10 ESV

Christ's epistles to the seven churches in Asia are loaded with warnings against falling away. For example:

"But I have this against you (Ephesus), that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent." -- Rev 2:4-5 ESV

Peter gave this warning:

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability." -- 2Pet 3:17 ESV


Why all the warnings? It seems the Judaizers (those promoting the law of Moses) were making many Christians fall away. For example:

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." -- Gal 5:4 ESV

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." -- Rev 2:9-10 KJV

All in Asia abandoned Paul (e.g., his teachings), at least at time he wrote this letter:

"Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you. You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes." -- 2Tim 1:14-15 NASB

That falling away by those in Asia may have been the reason for Christ's urgent warnings to the seven Churches in the Revelation.


In any case, you appear to have fallen into the same literary trap that the rulers of first-century Jerusalem fell into, which ultimately led to their destruction:

"But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation [the anointing and ministry of Christ]: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." -- Isa 28:13-18 KJV

All of that was fulfilled in the first century.

Perhaps everything will make more sense to you if you start relying on every Word of God, rather than a verse here and a verse there (that is, "here a little, and there a little").

Rev

First, anything is possible, for if God wanted to make an example of someone who was baptized with the holy spirit that later sinned, God could appoint that to happen to exemplify the destruction of a person who disobeyed after receiving the holy spirit, which is why we must all walk in fear of God, for any of us could get cut off for disobedience, even after having been baptized with the holy spirit. In either case, if it were possible or not, if it has happened or not, even though we see in scripture that anyone that is freed from sin cannot sin, shouldn't you be afraid that this same passage teaches that if anyone that has received the holy spirit, yet sins, he can never be brought to repentance again? You are trying to seek loopholes to excuse your continuance of sin.

Now, concerning the warnings to all the assemblies, you must understand that not everyone who believes, and is baptized with water actually receives the holy spirit. There are many examples of this in the book of Acts, where even Simon the magician believed and was baptized with water, but later was denied the holy spirit because he offered money to try to acquire the holy spirit. And this is because "many are called, but few chosen". Only those who are chosen will actually receive the holy spirit, but many will believe and be baptized with water, but few will be baptized with the holy spirit, for the baptism of the holy spirit is the seal of having been chosen, and can never be revoked, hence why this baptism is called a "seal". As such, all these warnings are specifically for the infants in Christ, for those who are still uninstructed, still sinning, even after believing, not for those who have been perfected.

 

[Richard_oti]

Did Jesus mandate it?

This oughta be good.

Save me a seat, I'm going for popcorn.

 

[christiang]

Did Jesus mandate it?

the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
... If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored. (1 Corinthians 14:37-38 [ESV])

Whatever Paul commanded are commands of Lord, and the Lord is Jesus Christ. Paul commanded wives being silent in the assemblies, and also wearing tzniut, because it was commanded in the Law, which the Lord, who is Jesus Christ, also taught that all must obey.

 

[bbyrd009]

don't forget to keep your milk and your meat separated too

 

[christiang]

don't forget to keep your milk and your meat separated too

Why do you mock the Law of God? Was the command that brought death to the entire world not as simple as "do not eat this fruit"? So why should it surprise you that other commands of God may not also come as "do not do this" and "do not do that" as commands that also convey hidden wisdom of God? Do you not know that "do not muzzle the ox" conveys wisdom towards laborers being worthy of their wages, and that those who labor in the gospel have a right to making a living from it? People who so easily mock commands of God are idiots, imbeciles who lack understanding, and are thus perishing because of their disobedience to what the Lord has commanded, even in lesser commands related to boiling meat in milk. "Whoever sets aside the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens".

 

[KBCid]

The new covenant is based on love for others. Do you recall the prophet saying God would write his laws in the hearts of the children of Israel and Judah?
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." -- Heb 10:16-17 KJV
This is the law: "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well" -- Jas 2:9 KJV
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." -- Rom 13:10 KJV
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -- Gal 5:14 KJV
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." -- Mat 7:12 KJV Rev

Umm not Quite.
There were two tablets given in the OT and if you pay attention to the scriptures that you referenced God said I will put my "LAWS" in their heart. So, there is not just one law.
Now I am not just going to give you the answer to what you missed since we as Christians are supposed to live by every word of God's mouth so, tell me what is missing from your reply?

 

[bbyrd009]

Was the command that brought death to the entire world not as simple as "do not eat this fruit"?

no, it is not that simple, and "judge by the fruit" is already understood to not be advising us to go looking for ripe plums on people, as i'm sure you would agree

Why do you mock the Law of God?

so hopefully what was perceived as mocking is explained above

So why should it surprise you that other commands of God may not also come as "do not do this" and "do not do that" as commands that also convey hidden wisdom of God?

it is the "hidden" part that i would like to have revealed

Do you not know that "do not muzzle the ox" conveys wisdom towards laborers being worthy of their wages

wait, now alla sudden an ox is not an ox anymore, see

those who labor in the gospel have a right to making a living from it?

hmm. So you say, but i suggest that that is an assumption based upon false premises, as the vv that are taken as being in contrast to that one might bring out, the "filthy lucre" one, you know.

People who so easily mock commands of God are idiots, imbeciles who lack understanding, and are thus perishing because of their disobedience to what the Lord has commanded, even in lesser commands related to boiling meat in milk. "Whoever sets aside the least of these commands will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens".

understand then how ritual observance without understanding is also mocking God, at least in a sense, even if it is mocking in ignorance, monkey see monkey do type stuff, not involving judgement iow. Because milk and meat should definitely be kept separate, i am not denying that. Women should cover their heads, not denying that either. These are the "oxen" of Scripture, that just have not been seen for their significance yet.

 

[christiang]

no, it is not that simple, and "judge by the fruit" is already understood to not be advising us to go looking for ripe plums on people, as i'm sure you would agree

so hopefully what was perceived as mocking is explained above
it is the "hidden" part that i would like to have revealed
wait, now alla sudden an ox is not an ox anymore, see

hmm. So you say, but i suggest that that is an assumption based upon false premises, as the vv that are taken as being in contrast to that one might bring out, the "filthy lucre" one, you know.
understand then how ritual observance without understanding is also mocking God, at least in a sense, even if it is mocking in ignorance, monkey see monkey do type stuff, not involving judgement iow. Because milk and meat should definitely be kept separate, i am not denying that. Women should cover their heads, not denying that either.

For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.
(1 Corinthians 9:9-10 [NIV])

 

[KBCid]

You are not making a lot of sense. If you believe Christians (or anyone else) are under the law of Moses, you are gravely mistaken. The only "law" we are under was given to us by the Lord in Matthew 7:12. Rev 20

Of course we are not under the very limited kindergarten laws given by Moses. That law was given as examples of God's way. The Israelites were to gain understanding of Gods ways from those simple rules and grow from them and be ready for when Christ would come and EXPAND the law under the new covenant.
As I already asked in my last post What are the LAWS of God that are to be written in our hearts? Notice it plainly and clearly states LAWS thus it is plural... more than one.
Then once you define what these more than one LAWS are tell me which of the old testament laws are not included within the intent of the new covenant LAWS?

 

[bbyrd009]

For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.
(1 Corinthians 9:9-10 [NIV])

we can note that "old wive's tales" remain old wives tales, even if men repeat them

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course we are not under the very limited kindergarten laws given by Moses.

unless one is not over them at least, ya

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not arguing that which you present, but also note:

1Co 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:9-15 KJV
[9] Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. [10] For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [11] Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. [12] For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. [13] Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? [14] Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? [15] But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I posted the KJV since this is the one I usually stay with. It is confusing changing back-and-forth between translations. I did, however, look up the original Hebrew of this verse to compare. First, we must realize what this reveals which is Christ and His body. The topic is hair, imo. The hair (like with Samson) the sign of power. But pertaining to the verse you posted:

Neither was Christ created for the body; but the body for Christ. For this cause ought not the body have power on its head because of the Angels. Nevertheless neither is Christ without the body, neither the body without Christ.
For as the body is of Christ, even so is Christ also by the body; but all things of God.

1 Timothy 2:15 KJV
[15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

She (the body) is saved through a child: Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 KJV
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

a perfect man= One (Christ and His body)

Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is (his body), the fulness of him that filleth all in all

Ephesians 2:14-16King James Version (KJV)
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. The HEAD is Christ and He is the Power.
It is not about hair. Those disputes over meats and hairs: are those gnats that are strained earnestly against and they unknowingly swallow a camel. It ALL speaks of Christ. It all points to Christ. Miss Christ. And you miss the entire message of His death and resurrection.

 

[christiang]

we can note that "old wive's tales" remain old wives tales, even if men repeat them

The command of God, which the apostles repeated, is an old wives tales?

 

[bbyrd009]

The command of God, which the apostles repeated, is an old wives tales?

what? no, sorry. In that analogy, you are reading logically what was written dialectically, and oxen can be people, but hair or scarves stay literal until you see them differently, just like milk and meat, or any other spiritual concept given in Scripture that can be taken literally or figuratively. Keeping milk on a separate shelf from meat is not evil; it is just not the point iow.

 

[Helen]

Phil 3:9 "...that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;"