The Millennial Kingdom

[Randy Kluth]

If I may interject...

Man was brought forth by God from the dust of the earth--so was the Son of man. That is the body that was raised from the dead, and as it is written, "the body returns to the dust, and spirit to God who gave it."

Meaning, there was no glorification of the flesh to immortality as some believe. But it is rather as Jesus said, "take, eat, this is My body"...which is to say that He gave His flesh body to the church. And as confirmation, He also said on the cross, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit"--not His flesh.

That was interesting, to say the least. I'll think on that....

 

[PinSeeker]

--Time for one more riddle?​

If a thousand years is of this world and a day is of the Lord (by their own measure), how long is the reign of Christ and how long is Satan bound?​

If, in your if clause, you mean that in the context of David in Psalm 90:4 and Peter in 2 Peter 3:8 (as you should), then if you then mean to ask how long the millennial reign of Christ is, then the answer is... we don't know exactly how long, but only in the fullness of God's time, which may seem like a very long time to us (it may seem like God is tarrying) but is not (He is not).

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[PinSeeker]

...there was no glorification of the flesh to immortality as some believe.

I hope no one ever believed that there was any glorification of the physical body of sin. But when the physical body is resurrected upon Jesus's return, for believers, that physical body will no longer be of sin or sinful, and our spirits will be reunited with our physical body. That's when the glorification takes place; we'll be just like Jesus.

But it is rather as Jesus said, "take, eat, this is My body"...which is to say that He gave His flesh body to the church.

And His blood, you will remember. This is a sacrament that He Himself inaugurated, by which we proclaim His death until he comes.

And as confirmation, He also said on the cross, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit"--not His flesh.

Right, and we will too, when we die. Christians, anyway. But the second resurrection in which what I said in my first comment directly above takes place. We will not be... ghosts... or spirits only... in eternity.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

I hope no one ever believed that there was any glorification of the physical body of sin. But when the physical body is resurrected upon Jesus's return, for believers, that physical body will no longer be of sin or sinful, and our spirits will be reunited with our physical body. That's when the glorification takes place; we'll be just like Jesus.


And His blood, you will remember. This is a sacrament that He Himself inaugurated, by which we proclaim His death until he comes.


Right, and we will too, when we die. Christians, anyway. But the second resurrection in which what I said in my first comment directly above takes place. We will not be... ghosts... or spirits only... in eternity.

Grace and peace to you.

To be clear, God who is "perfect", lacking nothing--is spirit.

So, to believe or campaign for an eternal future for the body of flesh which is at war with God...is just the flesh talking--by the power of Satan. In other words, although it is hard to imagine from our current perspective, there is nothing lacking with the spirit in God that we should hope and wrongly look forward to a future, lessor existence of the flesh. That way of thinking is counter productive, against God (whom is spirit), and backwards.

But make no mistake, if God whom is spirit (and perfect) can and does make manifest matter at will, then our future of Oneness with Him is not lacking in the least, having no fleshly existence, but is greater than we have yet to experience. Thus, it is foolish to imagine that this fleshly existence is somehow greater than God's own spiritual makeup as is--being strictly "spirit." Contrary to what many would like to believe, we should instead include our fleshly knowledge, desires, and experience among those things brought under subordination of the spirit we are just beginning to come to know--and take this fleshly captivity captive.

God has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing, as if God is in our one hand and our flesh is in the other--and what does He say? "Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

"If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off..."

 

[PinSeeker]

To be clear, God who is "perfect", lacking nothing--is spirit.

I'm well aware of that, Scott. Yes, John 4:24. Thank you, though.

So, to believe or campaign for an eternal future for the body of flesh which is at war with God...

A sinful body, yes. However... We shall all be changed... And we will not... disappear.

is just the flesh talking--by the power of Satan. In other words, although it is hard to imagine from our current perspective, there is nothing lacking with the spirit in God that we should hope and wrongly look forward to a future, lessor existence of the flesh.

Some are looking forward to still being in their sin, the passions of their flesh, yes. But... that's not us.

That way of thinking is counter productive, against God (whom is spirit), and backwards.

Well, I agree, in the context of my comment immediately above.

But make no mistake, if God whom is spirit (and perfect) can and does make manifest matter at will, then our future of Oneness with Him is not lacking in the least...

Right with you this far. You know, when Jesus said He was one with the Father, He had not yet died, and was very much physically still with us... And after His resurrection, more specifically when He ascended to the Father, He did so quite physically... And I would point back also to Adam and Eve before the their fall in Genesis 3...

...having no fleshly existence...

Right, no longer having a sinful nature, and completely without sin. Agreed, although... I'm well aware that's not what you mean, at least not exactly.

...but is greater than we have yet to experience.

Yes, having no sin, and being completely inclined against it and therefore remaining without it is hard to imagine.

Thus, it is foolish to imagine that this fleshly existence is somehow greater than God's own spiritual makeup as is--being strictly "spirit."

Sure. Absolutely.

Contrary to what many would like to believe, we should instead include our fleshly knowledge, desires, and experience among those things brought under subordination of the spirit we are just beginning to come to know--and take this fleshly captivity captive.

Right, this is what Paul exhorts us to when He says we should put off the old man and put on the new. Absolutely. I mean, as of now we cannot do this fully, but we should strive for it.

God has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing, as if God is in our one hand and our flesh is in the other--and what does He say? "Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

"As if God is in our one hand and our flesh is in the other"... I'm really not sure what you mean by that, but that is the Christian's dual nature for now, the old man and the new man, as, again, Paul puts it. But yes, this is His general call to all through His infallible Word; His desire is that all people would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, for sure.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

A sinful body, yes. However... We shall all be changed... And we will not... disappear.

These are big issues, so I will address them one at a time:

The "change" however, is not from sinful flesh to unsinful flesh, but from darkness to light--the light of God...which does not transform sinful flesh, it "dissolves" it, just as is true of all the "elements." As He warned, "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness."

Thus, the "change" in simple terms, is actually a matter of being made anew--"a new creation" (not the old renewed and retaining the flesh). Again, to be clear, "God is spirit", meaning that our future Oneness with Him in Christ, is not the flesh (old or new) inheriting the kingdom--but rather becoming "like Him"--like Him who "is spirit."

 

[ScottA]

You know, when Jesus said He was one with the Father, He had not yet died, and was very much physically still with us... And after His resurrection, more specifically when He ascended to the Father, He did so quite physically... And I would point back also to Adam and Eve before the their fall in Genesis 3...

Those are all reasonable assumptions, nonetheless incorrect. Assumptions of the flesh.

The overarching reality however, is that all those events are mere manifestations or public revelations of what was already true "before the foundation of the world." So, citing their chronology after the fact takes not precedence: Before all those things "I am" (He was...past tense). Which is to say, that regardless of what may appear in the manifestation of each event in this world--Jesus always was and is One with the Father whom is spirit. Which only makes your statement true with in a created-for-revelation enactment context...a mere "image" as is the entire creation of man.

The choice then, is to limit the context to this world, or as a matter of God, to "press on" to that which is greater and ultimately the actual overarching truth. To which I will respond to say, in the words of Jesus to disciples just before being captured and taken to be crucified, "rise, let us be going."

 

[PinSeeker]

These are big issues...

You're right about that, I agree. But the concepts themselves are not so big.

The change however, is not from sinful flesh to unsinful flesh, but from darkness to light--the light of God...which does not transform sinful flesh, it "dissolves" it, just as is true of all the "elements." Therefore, He warned, "Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness."

Hmmm... well, in a way, I agree, but your use of 'flesh' is of a different context that what Paul refers to as the flesh. In what Jesus says there in Luke 11, He's speaking metaphorically. Yes, one day, there will be no more "darkness" in our bodies, but only "light," which is to say not that we will be invisible... ... or blobs of light... ... but there will be no more darkness ~ no more evil, no more sin ~ in us, but only righteousness... the fruit of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Thus, the "change" in simple terms, is actually a matter of being made anew--a new creation...

Well, I agree, except that Paul says this is already a reality. This is the 'now' as opposed to the 'not yet,' but that 'not yet' will surely be a reality... when Jesus comes back. We will be like Him. Jesus, Scott, as surely you will agree, was very much in His body after He was resurrected. And we will be, too.

(not the old renewed and retaining the flesh).

Again, I agree, but how you're using "the flesh" is... well, sorry, a problem.

Again, to be clear, God is spirit, meaning that our future Oneness with Him in Christ, is not the flesh (old or new) inheriting the kingdom--becoming "like Him"--like Him who "is spirit."

We will be like God the Son, not God the Father, in that we will, assuredly, have a corporeal (bodily) existence. Paradise will be restored, as John Milton put it, and we will be in the same state as Adam and Eve before the fall of Genesis 3.

Those are all reasonable assumptions, nonetheless incorrect. Assumptions of the flesh.

I appreciate the compliment... and the opinion.

The overarching reality however, is that all those events are mere manifestations or public revelations of what was already true "before the foundation of the world." So, citing their chronology after the fact takes not precedence: Before all those things "I am" (He was...past tense). Which is to say, that regardless of what may appear in the manifestation of each event in this world--Jesus always was and is One with the Father whom is spirit. Which only makes your statement true with in a created-for-revelation enactment context...a mere "image" as is the entire creation of man.

The choice then, is to limit the context to this world, or as a matter of God, to "press on" to that which is greater and ultimately the actual overarching truth.

You have some interesting ideas, Scott. You're an interesting person, insofar as I know you.

To which I will respond to say, in the words of Jesus to disciples just before being captured and taken to be crucified, "rise, let us be going."

I'm with you on that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[strepho]

The millennium is time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead. Those who worshipped antichrist in the flesh, will be in sheol.
Documentation, revelation chapter 20
Ezekiel chapter 44

God's election are predestined. God judged the election in first earth age.
Documentation, romans chapter 8.

God's election are priests. The election will reign with Jesus during the millennium. Jesus is high priest, and king of kings.

Revelation chapter 12 . One third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God in first earth age. Satan had a political structure in first earth age.

Lucifer wanted the Mercy seat. To be messiah. God condemn satan to lake of fire.
Documentation, Ezekiel chapter 28.

Jeremiah chapter 4 to document their was first earth age.

TOHU in Hebrew means = void.

Satan's rebellion in first earth age. God destroyed the first earth age.

How.
Kadabal. It was world wide flood. This is not Noah's flood. God also shook the earth. That's why we have four seasons year. Irregular weather patterns. Get the picture.

Dinosaurs died from world wide flood and shaking of the earth.

Ezekiel chapter 44 . The 7th trump starts the millennium.
Ephesians chapter 1
First Peter chapter 1.
Romans chapter 8
Will document, the election we're judged in first earth age. They are predestined, chosen before foundation of the world to be priests in kingdom of God.

Isaiah chapter 6. Many people in the flesh have spirit of stupor. God has His reasons why he placed blinders on some people.

Matthew chapter 13 is cross reference. Mystery of God is hidden from some people. They have spirit of stupor.

During millennium, every one will have full understanding and capacity.

We understand this. I won't sugar coat Gods word.

 

[ScottA]

"As if God is in our one hand and our flesh is in the other"... I'm really not sure what you mean by that, but that is the Christian's dual nature for now, the old man and the new man, as, again, Paul puts it. But yes, this is His general call to all through His infallible Word; His desire is that all people would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, for sure.

Grace and peace to you.

God has presented us with the flesh vs. the spirit (Himself), as if we are to weigh them in our own hands and choose between them.

I see that we are much in agreement. Grace and peace to you as well!

 

[ScottA]

Hmmm... well, in a way, I agree, but your use of 'flesh' is of a different context that what Paul refers to as the flesh. In what Jesus says there in Luke 11, He's speaking metaphorically. Yes, one day, there will be no more "darkness" in our bodies, but only "light," which is to say not that we will be invisible... ... or blobs of light... ... but there will be no more darkness ~ no more evil, no more sin ~ in us, but only righteousness... the fruit of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

That misses the point that God is not flesh, but spirit, and that our purposed future is to be One with Him and "like Him." There is nothing metaphoric about it.

Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

 

[ScottA]

We will be like Him. Jesus, Scott, as surely you will agree, was very much in His body after He was resurrected. And we will be, too.

We already are (in our flesh bodies). That is...as Jesus also "was" before His ascension.

However, John saying we would be "like Him" did not mean that we would be what he had already known of Jesus, but rather what "has not yet been revealed", just as he said. Which is to say, "as He is" and as we too will be in that same Oneness with the Father (whom is spirit), which no man except Jesus had yet seen. So, the likeness is not of Jesus was as a man--that much had "been revealed", but rather as Jesus now "is" in the same existence as the Father--whom is spirit.

 

[ScottA]

and the opinion.

Thank you as well...but I do not dabble in opinion.

Blessings--all is well!

 

[PinSeeker]

God has presented us with the flesh vs. the spirit (Himself), as if we are to weigh them in our own hands and choose between them.

I see that we are much in agreement. Grace and peace to you as well!

Sure.

That misses the point that God is not flesh, but spirit, and that our purposed future is to be One with Him and "like Him." There is nothing metaphoric about it.

With regard to what you say specifically here, no, there's nothing metaphorical there. But in what Jesus says in Luke 11:33-36, He's indisputably speaking metaphorically. God the Father and God the Son are one in each other, certainly, but they are distinct Persons. As are we, and as will we be, together and with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But with regard to the physical body, we will be, one day, just like the Son, and not the Father or the Spirit, Who both, we agree, are Spirit.

Revelation 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Hmmm, well, Scripture says what it says, for sure. But we... disagree on some things therein, obviously, or what the true thrust and meaning of the text. So be it.

We already are (in our flesh bodies). That is...as Jesus also "was" before His ascension.

Interesting. And what makes you think He disappeared after His ascension? And what makes you think He will return out of body, when he descends from heaven with a cry of command, as Paul puts it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? After His ascension, Scott, I'm sure you know that the two men standing His disciples in white robes said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." I'm... sure you will have an interesting answer, but why are you contradicting that? Eh... no answer necessary. I mean, certainly, do whatever you feel compelled to do, but I don't require an answer to that.

However, John saying we would be "like Him" did not mean that we would be what he had already known of Jesus, but rather what "has not yet been revealed", just as he said. Which is to say, "as He is" and as we too will be in that same Oneness with the Father (whom is spirit), which no man except Jesus had yet seen. So, the likeness is not of Jesus was as a man--that much had "been revealed", but rather as Jesus now "is" in the same existence as the Father--whom is spirit.

Interesting. Again, a contradiction of several Scriptures ~ for example, when Jesus said, in John 10, while physically present with the Jews to whom He was speaking at the Feast of Dedication, "The Father and I are..." ~ not "will be" ~ "...one" (John 10:30) ~ but interesting none the less.

I do not dabble in opinion..

You're not alone in asserting that... And... not purposefully, I'm sure. We all have opinions, Scott. And we all think we're right, which is... often a problem, even unto ourselves.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation chapter 12 . One third of God's children followed satan in rebellion against God in first earth age. Satan had a political structure in first earth age.

No part of Rev 12 is "the first Earth age". It starts with the birth of Christ and ends with satan starting the trib. Teh 1/3 of angels mentioned happens in this Earth age, and it happened long after angels rebelled with satan. It isn't even an angelic rebellion in Rev 12. Why would satan remove his own loyal angels from heaven when satan is about to start a war in heaven a few verses later?

Ezekiel chapter 44 . The 7th trump starts the millennium.

No, the 7th trump is the second coming. The Millennium starts after Armageddon is over which is some point after the 7th trump.

 

[ScottA]

With regard to what you say specifically here, no, there's nothing metaphorical there. But in what Jesus says in Luke 11:33-36, He's indisputably speaking metaphorically. God the Father and God the Son are one in each other, certainly, but they are distinct Persons. As are we, and as will we be, together and with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But with regard to the physical body, we will be, one day, just like the Son, and not the Father or the Spirit, Who both, we agree, are Spirit.

It would appear that you mean to say that the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit, but the Son is not...or at least that the Son is also flesh. Which is not true, as "the flesh returns to the dust" (and in the end is "dissolved" with the elements).

If that is not what you mean to say, please clarify.

 

[ScottA]

Interesting. And what makes you think He disappeared after His ascension? And what makes you think He will return out of body, when he descends from heaven with a cry of command, as Paul puts it in 1 Thessalonians 4:16? After His ascension, Scott, I'm sure you know that the two men standing His disciples in white robes said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." I'm... sure you will have an interesting answer, but why are you contradicting that? Eh... no answer necessary. I mean, certainly, do whatever you feel compelled to do, but I don't require an answer to that.

It is written "while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight." Which does not mean that Jesus "disappeared", except to those of this world, for He also then appeared to each whom He received unto Himself.

As for Jesus returning "out of body"--no I did not say or mean that, but rather that He returns to many in the flesh--theirs, which is become His, for He gave it to His church, saying "take, eat, this is my body" after which in the crucifixion He committed only His "spirit" to the Father, and not His flesh.

As for the "same way" as they saw Him go into heaven--do not misunderstand. That is what was said, but it was not a contradiction to the fact that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”--but rather that the two men simply spoke regarding what they could see of the event that they could otherwise not see. Only by the Spirit are these two passages clearly understood. Hence the misunderstanding, indeed not "required" of many generations, but the cause and propagation of false doctrine--which is the "lie" leading to "strong delusion" and great apostacy.

 

[ScottA]

Interesting. Again, a contradiction of several Scriptures ~ for example, when Jesus said, in John 10, while physically present with the Jews to whom He was speaking at the Feast of Dedication, "The Father and I are..." ~ not "will be" ~ "...one" (John 10:30) ~ but interesting none the less.

No contradiction. Your observation just proves that Jesus was God, saying in effect that as "One" with the Father, He was including Himself in the "Us" who made man in their image, and all things manifest to be seen of men.

 

[ScottA]

You're not alone in asserting that... And... not purposefully, I'm sure. We all have opinions, Scott. And we all think we're right, which is... often a problem, even unto ourselves.

When Peter spoke his own opinion, Jesus rebuked him, saying "Satan, get behind Me." But when Peter did not speak his own opinion, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him, it was written as the word of God.

 

[PinSeeker]

It would appear that you mean to say that the Father and the Holy Spirit are spirit, but the Son is not

This is exactly what I said, although not verbatim; you sort of changed how I said it. Not to say that is a bad thing or "changed what I said, but, yeah. "Spirit" can have different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. The context in which I used it was that the Son has a visible, corporeal body like men ~ at least in the time that He walked the earth, and when He returns and in the age to come.

...or at least that the Son is also flesh. Which is not true, as "the flesh returns to the dust" (and in the end is "dissolved" with the elements).

Well, again, it depends ~ in my opinion, I guess I will say ~ on the context in which you use "flesh." It you mean it (as it is used many times in Scripture) as sinful... of the flesh... then I certainly agree. If you mean it in the context of a corporeal body, then, in the flesh, as a man, Christ did "return to dust" when He died, but He was ~ as you will certainly agree ~ resurrected, and soon thereafter ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Your observation only proves that Jesus was God, saying in effect that as "One" with the Father, He was including Himself in the "Us" who made man in their image, and all things manifest to be seen of men.

Well, it proves that; yes, I agree. But you missed my point, which is understandable.

When Peter spoke his own opinion, Jesus rebuked him, saying "Satan, get behind Me." But when Peter did not speak his own opinion, but the Holy Spirit spoke through him, it was written as the word of God.

Well, you're not Jesus... or like Him yet.

And I would say with regard to Peter that just in and of himself he did speak his opinion ~ spoke in his own words, and of his own volition, conveyed his own thoughts very well ~ but yes, it was the Holy Spirit superintending Peter's writing. And having said that, your words are not inspired by God. Nor are mine.

You're angry, it seems, which is a good reason to stop. And, whether that's true or not, even beyond that, I certainly don't mean this in any disparaging way, Scott, but it's enough, my friend.

Grace and peace to you.