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Featured The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Zachary, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. RogerDC

    RogerDC Active Member

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    Were the prophets fallible? Of course they were, so how did they utter the infallible words of God?

    Were the Bible writers fallible? Of course they were, so how did they write the infallible words of God?
     
    Marymog likes this.
  2. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    The Pope is like the OT Prophets?

    The Pope is like the writers of the Bible?

    The foundation of the Apostles and Prophets is still being built by the Popes?

    Sounds like a fishy new foundation to me.
     
    r1xlx likes this.
  3. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    You mean “the gentiles upon whom my name is called”....water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ
     
  4. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    So it looks like we agree that it is not as easy as calling upon the name of the Lord to become saved (which is what you originally alleged). I agree with you that we must build upon that foundation.
     
  5. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi Truther,

    I don't "mean" anything by it.....I was only responding to Enow sooooo maybe you should as him?
     
  6. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi Truther,

    Was the Protestant movement, which started 500 years ago, built upon the foundation of the Apostles?

    Curious Mary
     
  7. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    No, it was mostly RCC with a little modification.

    Any church must be completely free from RCC doctrine to qualify for pure doctrine.

    Folks must drop how they think completely, start over by obeying Acts 2:38 for themselves, then obey the Epistles in their entirety.
     
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  8. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    It fine.

    I just wanted you to think about the use of the name of Jesus Christ.
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    BINGO.

    And I cite the Pope as another example of a saint being given accolades even though he doesn't seek them.
    He is the Servant of the servants of God.
    It's "wrong" to tell a Catholic to go back to their faith??
    That's just another stupid anti-Catholic remark - and yet another reason I don't take people like you seriously . . .
     
  10. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Truther.

    So your theory is that any church that is completely free of the doctrine of the Trinity, baptism being necessary for salvation, the Real Presence in communion, anointing of the sick, marriage, etc. then that church is the true church started by Christ and the Apostles?

    Wow....you have elimintated almost all Christian doctrines. Which Church meets your criteria?

    Curious Mary
     
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  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Matt. 28:19-20
    "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Best to always obey Christ . . .
     
  12. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    What is that specific, singular name?
     
  13. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Case in point, a sinner must pass through Acts 2:38 to qualify for any church doctrine whatsoever.
    If they skip Acts 2:38, they are automatically disqualified, and are reading the saints mail illegally.
    Then after finally giving up and obeying Acts 2:38, they may graduate to the Epistles, which provides doctrine.
    then, you will find that by only using the Bible and refusing all commentary, that Jesus has a God etc.
    Then you will be at odds with modern day Christendom but lined up with the 1st century, pre-commentary, Apostles doctrines.
    Gotta start from scratch.....
     
  14. Illuminator

    Illuminator Active Member

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    1st century Christians didn't have Bibles, so "starting from scratch" is problematic.

    Biblical scholars tell us that the last book of the New Testament was not written until the end of the 1st century A.D., that is, until around the year 100 A.D. (9) This fact would leave roughly a 65-year gap between Our Lord’s Ascension into Heaven and the completion of the Bible as we know it. The question that begs to be asked, therefore, is this: "Who or what served as the final, infallible authority during that time?"

    If the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura were true, then since the Church existed for a time without the entire written Word of God, there would have been situations and doctrinal issues which could not have been resolved with finality until all of the New Testament books were complete. The ship would have been left without a rudder, so to speak, at least for a time. But this goes contrary to the statements and promises that Our Lord made about His Church – particularly, "behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28:20) – not to mention that He told His disciples: "I will not leave you orphans." (John 14:18).

    This issue is of particular importance, as the first several decades of the Church’s existence were tumultuous. Persecutions had already begun, believers were being martyred, the new Faith was struggling to grow, and some false teachings had already appeared (cf. Galatians 1:6-9). If the Bible were the Christian’s only rule of faith, and since the Bible was not fully written – much less settled in terms of its canon – until 65 years after Christ’s Ascension, how did the early Church possibly deal with doctrinal questions without an authority on how to proceed?

    Now Truther may be tempted to offer two possible responses:
    1) that the Apostles were temporarily the final authority while the New Testament was being written, and
    2) that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church and that His direct guidance is what bridged the time gap between Our Lord’s Ascension and the completion of the New Testament.

    Regarding the first response, it is true that Jesus Christ invested the Apostles with His authority; however, the Bible nowhere indicates that this authority’s active role within the Church would cease with the death of the last Apostle. Quite the contrary, the Bible record is quite clear in that
    a) it nowhere says that once the last Apostle dies, the written form of God’s Word will become the final authority; and
    b) the Apostles clearly chose successors who, in turn, possessed the same authority to "bind and loose."

    This is shown in the election of Matthias as a replacement for Judas Iscariot (Cf. Acts 1:15-26) and in St. Paul’s passing on his Apostolic Authority to Timothy and Titus (cf. 2 Timothy 1:6, and Titus 1:5). If anything, Truther only gives credence to the Catholic teaching by insisting on the authority of the Apostles.

    Regarding the second response – that the Holy Spirit’s direct guidance bridged the time gap – the problem with such a position is that the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit Himself is an extra-Biblical (That is, "outside of the Bible") source of authority. Naturally the Bible speaks very clearly of the Holy Spirit’s presence among the believers and His role in teaching the disciples "all truth," but if the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit were, in fact, the ultimate authority during those 65 years, then the history of the Church would have known two successive ultimate authorities:
    first the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, with this guidance
    then being replaced by the Scriptures
    ,
    which would have become sola, or the "only" ultimate authority. And if this situation of an extra-Biblical ultimate authority is permissible from a Protestant perspective, does this not open the door to the Catholic position, which says that the teaching authority of the Church is the direct ultimate authority – deriving her authority from Christ and her teaching from Scripture and Tradition, guided by the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit was given to the Church by Jesus Christ, and it is exactly this same Spirit who protects the Church’s visible head, the Pope, and the teaching authority of the Church by never permitting him or it to lapse into error. The Catholic believes that Christ indeed did give the Holy Spirit to the Church and that the Holy Spirit has always been present in the Church, teaching it all truth (John 16:13) and continually safeguarding its doctrinal integrity, particularly through the office of the Pope. Thus the Gospel would still have been preached – authoritatively and infallibly – even if not a single verse of the New Testament had ever been written.
    Twenty One Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
    RogerDC likes this.
  15. Illuminator

    Illuminator Active Member

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    "Impeccable" (living without sinning) does not mean the same thing as "infallible", (teaching without error). I hope that polemical nonsense has been cleared up.
     
  16. Truther

    Truther Well-Known Member

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    Right. They did not have the NT.
    They were the examples of the NT.
    The only examples we have.
    We must follow them.

    Our Bible is written about them.

    Starting from scratch is starting with them, not anyone else.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And that's where your heresy falls off the tracks.

    Jesus didn't say:
    "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the specific, singular names of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, . . .”

    He said:
    "... baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT, . . ."

    YOUR problem - apart from being woefully-ignorant of Scripture - is that you are ALSO ignorant of history and the use of language.
    Therein lies your complete confusion . . .
     
  18. r1xlx

    r1xlx Active Member

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    Marymog, The Protestant church was started by Jesus 2,000 years ago before your friend Satan infiltrated it and introduced worship of Ishtar and Tammuz and all ridiculous idols, symbols, pomp, ceremony and false doctrines.
    And of course you Catholics gloat about killing Jesus by having crucifixes of him hanging outside your churches.
    The cross is empty while you Catholics keep it full of shame.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  19. r1xlx

    r1xlx Active Member

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    Popey may be head of your Satanic church but he sure ain't head of mine.
    Popey prays to idols of Ishtar and Tammuz.
    Popey protects pedophiles and war criminals.
    Popey worships Lucifer.

    And quote: 'Holy Spirit who protects the Church’s visible head, the Pope, and the teaching authority of the Church by never permitting him or it to lapse into error!' My my, you really drank the Kool-aid didn't you.
    Popey is Satan in the flesh.
     
  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    ALL Baptized Christians have heeded Acts 2:38.
    YOUR confusion stems from your denial of the Triune Godhead.
     
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