The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Illuminator]

What does God say about people who pray to Mary instead of Him, or even as well as Him?

"pray to Mary instead of Him" is a constant misperception because you do not, or refuse to understand, what "my soul magnifies the Lord" means. (Luke 1:46).

 

[Illuminator]

Um no your missing the point

if I go get drunk and get into a vehicle and drive and get killed in the process. I have com tied a deadly sin (physical death)

if I say a white lie, or get drunk or commit any other sin, according to the law of God, I deserve spiritual death (the penalty of sin is death). Hence I better received the gift of God, or I will suffer what I deserve, death.

your church does not comprehend this biblical fact, that’s why I An not accept your church

No, you are missing the point.
1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

There is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Your church does not comprehend this biblical fact, that’s one reason of many why I left Protestantism.

 

[RogerDC]

how can you sit here and read something so clear and get it wrong.
The word a ONLY is not found in the text, Not by good works we have done, BUT by his mercy he saved us

So what? You’re trying to read something into Titus 3:5 that simply isn’t there - it doesn’t say works are irrelevant to salvation, but that we are not saved by “good works” alone. Paul makes the same point in Romans -that no one is saved by works alone. If works are irrelevant to salvation, why does Paul urge believers to “apply themselves to good works” in Titus 3: 8, 14)?

James 2:24, 26 clearly contradict your false “faith alone” doctrine. If works are irrelevant to salvation, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5:19-21 that their sins can lead them to hell?

Explain 1Peter 1:14-17, which tells believers to “be holy” and to conduct themselves “with fear”, because God will judge each one them according to their “deeds” (aka “works”).

Explain this: “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). Holiness is works.

 

[RogerDC]

You could be right, except I know these people, doctors, dentists, teachers, those who for truth really matters.

Truth really matters to me too - that’s why I left non-Catholic forms of Christianity behind and returned to the Catholic Church, which is “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim 3:15).

 

[RogerDC]

Something to do with

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Which part of that passage says we are saved before Christ judges us after we die?

 

[RogerDC]

He saved us

that’s gods word.

He will save us if we prove ourselves "worthy" (Rev 3:40 by abiding in Christ until the end. That's God word.

Jesus said believers will never die - but believers do die. Please explain.

you seem to have a problem with Gods power.

You seem to have a problem with logical thinking - how can you be “saved” before Christ judges you? If you have judged yourself “saved”, you have put yourself on the Judgement Throne instead of Christ, which is blasphemy.

Furthermore, why is salvation described as a “hope” in at least twenty verses in the NT? If you know you are “saved” (which is actually impossible), you no longer have hope, but certainty, thus contradicting all those “hope” verses.

And if you are "saved" NOW, what are you "saved" from NOW? Are you saved from death? No. Are you saved from aging and sickness? No. Are you saved from committing sin? No. So what is it exactly that you are "saved" from NOW?

 

[mjrhealth]

Which part of that passage says we are saved before Christ judges us after we die?

Not all men will be judged, some have already being judged, but so few persue after Christ, the religious, woudl rather be judged because religion is all about performance and you all want to have Him pat you on the back and say, ahh there there good little boys. Wont happen, none will boast, and if you would rather the second death, go right ahead.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

do it your way most men do.

 

[RogerDC]

Amen! James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came through faith.

What does James mean by "works"?

James asks, “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but not works?” (James 2:14). Notice that James says, “if a man SAYS he has faith”, not “if a man HAS faith” … implying that talk is cheap and means nothing - it is only through works that one’s faith is proven.

Then James asks “Can his faith save him?” - in other words, can we be saved by faith alone? He answers this question in verse 26 - “faith without works is dead” - ie, No, faith alone does not save.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Man is saved by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

We are commanded to be “obedient” and “holy”, as we will be judged according to our “deeds” (1Peter 1:14-17). To be holy is to obey “His commandments”, without which one is a “liar, and the truth is not in him (1John 2:3-4).

Without the holiness obtained by striving to obey Christ’s commandments, you will not be saved - “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

Works-salvationists twist James 2 to teach that we are saved by works. Some may even stress saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

News to me - I’ve never heard of any Christian teaching that we are “saved by works.”

 

[RogerDC]

that’s your excuse for everything if it does not agree with you it’s misinterpreted

james said we prove our faith by works

James said “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”, which means works are just as essential to salvation as faith is.

If a serial killer becomes a believer, but does repent and he keeps on killing, will he be saved? Of course not! So works can mean the difference between being saved and ending up in Hell. Come on - think! - it ain't rocket science.

Paul said we are not justified by works period

Wrong. Paul says we are not justified by works alone. He doesn’t say works are irrelevant to salvation. On the contrary, Paul warns that the sins of a believer can lead to Hell (Gal 5:19-21, 1Cor 6:9-11). There are good and bad “works” (Romans 2:6-8) - sin is bad works, so Paul preaches that bad works can destroy any hope of salvation.

Paul also preaches that holiness and righteous are essential for salvation:
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);
“He who through faith is righteous shall live” (Romans 1:17).
Holiness and righteous are achieved by keeping Christ’s commandments - keeping Christ’s commandments is good works, so Paul preaches that good works are essential for salvation. Thus Paul agrees with James, that faith and works are essential for salvation.

 

[RogerDC]

learn what grace is, you do not understand it

Does grace mean a believer can commit unlimited sins and still be saved?

learn what repent means, you have a “religious” view and not a literal understanding

There are Christians converts in South America who once worked for drug cartels, which involved torturing and murdering people on command. Their conversion meant they realized that what they were doing was sinful, so they left the cartels and stopped the torturing and murdering - in other words, they repented.

According to you, repenting simply means acknowledging that one is a sinner, and that’s it - no change in sinful behaviour - so the aforementioned converts did not have to stop to torturing and murdering in order to repent!

Who taught you this moronic nonsense? It’s embarrassing.

Romans 4, you can push James forever but until you interpret James correctly, you have no ground to stand on

Explain Romans 4 and how it relates to James 2.

 

[RogerDC]

It says scripture is able to make a man complete. If I am complete. I need nothing else.
end of discussion

2Tim 3:16 says Scripture can make a man “complete” with respect to “every good work”. Salvation depends on more than “every good work”.

 

[mjrhealth]

2Tim 3:16 says Scripture can make a man “complete” with respect to “every good work”. Salvation depends on more than “every good work”.

Yep believing, most important bit, without faith, the rest is irrelevant.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Religion makes it all about work, self....

We are justified because of the works Christ has done and our faith in Him.

 

[Paul Christensen]

"pray to Mary instead of Him" is a constant misperception because you do not, or refuse to understand, what "my soul magnifies the Lord" means. (Luke 1:46).

The official RCC prayer book encourages people to pray to Mary as the Queen of Heaven, and that there are prayers in it that state that there is no salvation for anyone outside of Mary's intercession to God as the result of people praying to her for it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, you are missing the point.
1 John 5:16-17 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

There is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Your church does not comprehend this biblical fact, that’s one reason of many why I left Protestantism.

No your missing the point

I can not see a brother or sister commit a sin leading to death if it is spiritual. I can only see it if they die physically

if I see a brother or sister commit the sin of drunkedness. Get behind a wheel, and NOT DIE, I should pray, and God will give them life

this mortal genial sin is a Catholic heresy not found in scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So what? You’re trying to read something into Titus 3:5 that simply isn’t there - it doesn’t say works are irrelevant to salvation, but that we are not saved by “good works” alone. Paul makes the same point in Romans -that no one is saved by works alone. If works are irrelevant to salvation, why does Paul urge believers to “apply themselves to good works” in Titus 3: 8, 14)?

James 2:24, 26 clearly contradict your false “faith alone” doctrine. If works are irrelevant to salvation, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5:19-21 that their sins can lead them to hell?

Explain 1Peter 1:14-17, which tells believers to “be holy” and to conduct themselves “with fear”, because God will judge each one them according to their “deeds” (aka “works”).

Explain this: “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14). Holiness is works.

Titus said not by good works

james said works prove faith

Paul said not by works

Paul said we are not justified by works, else we boast.

your stuck on one passage taken out of context.

good luck trying to earn your salvation,

remember, when you tell Jesus of all the works you did in his name, what his reply will be, he already warned you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He will save us if we prove ourselves "worthy" (Rev 3:40 by abiding in Christ until the end. That's God word.

Jesus said believers will never die - but believers do die. Please explain.


You seem to have a problem with logical thinking - how can you be “saved” before Christ judges you? If you have judged yourself “saved”, you have put yourself on the Judgement Throne instead of Christ, which is blasphemy.

Furthermore, why is salvation described as a “hope” in at least twenty verses in the NT? If you know you are “saved” (which is actually impossible), you no longer have hope, but certainty, thus contradicting all those “hope” verses.

And if you are "saved" NOW, what are you "saved" from NOW? Are you saved from death? No. Are you saved from aging and sickness? No. Are you saved from committing sin? No. So what is it exactly that you are "saved" from NOW?

See your trying to add to the word. It did not say he will save us, Paul said he saved us, a completed act

jesus said it is finished

he did not say it is almost accomplished, I did my part now you do yours

the only means of atonement on the OT was blood sacrifice.

now your church says there are many means of atonement.

your following a modern day system that is really do different than the jews. You just use different works to accomplish your salvation,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

James said “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”, which means works are just as essential to salvation as faith is.

If a serial killer becomes a believer, but does repent and he keeps on killing, will he be saved? Of course not! So works can mean the difference between being saved and ending up in Hell. Come on - think! - it ain't rocket science.Wrong. Paul says we are not justified by works alone. He doesn’t say works are irrelevant to salvation. On the contrary, Paul warns that the sins of a believer can lead to Hell (Gal 5:19-21, 1Cor 6:9-11). There are good and bad “works” (Romans 2:6-8) - sin is bad works, so Paul preaches that bad works can destroy any hope of salvation.

Paul also preaches that holiness and righteous are essential for salvation:
“Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14);
“He who through faith is righteous shall live” (Romans 1:17).
Holiness and righteous are achieved by keeping Christ’s commandments - keeping Christ’s commandments is good works, so Paul preaches that good works are essential for salvation. Thus Paul agrees with James, that faith and works are essential for salvation.

Yawn

james did not contradict Paul

your stuck on one passage, a passage where james was refuting belief only people, people who had no faith proven by the fact they had no works. Ie, their faith was dead.

true faith works, it is not dead. That’s why true faith will be followed up by works. In this fact james is correct

Paul said however, when talking to people just like you, if abraham was found righteous by works, he has something to boast of. Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness. Imputed righteousness, Jesus righteousness for his own, which would be paid for on the cross.

but we know abraham had many works after this, but he also had many sins after this.

start studying man.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Does grace mean a believer can commit unlimited sins and still be saved?There are Christians converts in South America who once worked for drug cartels, which involved torturing and murdering people on command. Their conversion meant they realized that what they were doing was sinful, so they left the cartels and stopped the torturing and murdering - in other words, they repented.

According to you, repenting simply means acknowledging that one is a sinner, and that’s it - no change in sinful behaviour - so the aforementioned converts did not have to stop to torturing and murdering in order to repent!

Who taught you this moronic nonsense? It’s embarrassing. Explain Romans 4 and how it relates to James 2.

So you can com it all the sins you want as long as you do what your church says to do and your ok?

stop being a hypocrite and judging others, and judge yourself, when are you going to repent

and your view of what I think repent means is off. Way off. Not even close.

Your church is wrong about me, hence yu are wrong about me because you blindly follow your church

that my friend is how did you put it? moronic,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2Tim 3:16 says Scripture can make a man “complete” with respect to “every good work”. Salvation depends on more than “every good work”.

who taught you this?

every good work is everything good work a man or woman needs to know about being a child of God, everything we need to know for sanctification. Not how to be saved, although it is included, remember, Paul told Timothy he had enough knowledge as a child to know how to be saved.

Oh that’s right paul does not know much, I should listen to you

 

[mailmandan]

What does James mean by "works"?

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" So to give a brother or sister who are in need these things needed for the body certainly is an example of "works." Certain people like to play games with the word "works" then proceed to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works. The apostle Paul leaves no room for salvation by works of any kind. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

James asks, “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but not works?” (James 2:14). Notice that James says, “if a man SAYS he has faith”, not “if a man HAS faith” … implying that talk is cheap and means nothing - it is only through works that one’s faith is proven.

Amen! If someone merely says/claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works (to substantiate their claim) then they have a bare profession of faith and not genuine faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Then James asks “Can his faith save him?” - in other words, can we be saved by faith alone? He answers this question in verse 26 - “faith without works is dead” - ie, No, faith alone does not save. Man is saved by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9) In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence/proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a righteous state.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." So this is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless, dead faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10)

We are commanded to be “obedient” and “holy”, as we will be judged according to our “deeds” (1Peter 1:14-17).

To be holy is to obey “His commandments”, without which one is a “liar, and the truth is not in him (1John 2:3-4).

Without the holiness obtained by striving to obey Christ’s commandments, you will not be saved - “Strive for … the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14).

Believers will be judged according to their works for the purpose of rewards and loss of rewards (not salvation or loss of salvation) at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) Unbelievers will be judged according to their works at the great white throne judgment and (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith) will be found wanting and will be cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15) For certain people like these scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:14, Jesus points out their (bad) works and calls them hypocrites and because they devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers, they will receive greater condemnation. Sadly, many unbelievers will find out the hard way that without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many so called wonderful works that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works. (Matthew 7:22-23)

In 1 John 2:3-4, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time as sinless perfectionists teach. It also does not mean that we will obtain eternal life based on the merits of perfectly obeying the 10 commandments either, as misguided teachers of the law teach.

In Hebrews 12:14, those who teach salvation by works are quick to point out - Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. The implication is that if we are not "holy enough" (practical holiness) then we will not see the Lord. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing, practical, progressive sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have practical, progressive, ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess positional, holiness, in their judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to ongoing sanctification towards spiritual growth.

News to me - I’ve never heard of any Christian teaching that we are “saved by works.”

"Nominal" Christians teach salvation by works. You said that you never heard of any Christian teaching that we are "saved by works," yet you previously used James 2:24 to teach that we are saved by works, when you said - "Man is saved by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24) Yet James said that man is "justified" by works (not saved by works) and not by faith alone and in context, once again, James is not using the term "justified" to mean accounted as righteous, but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence/proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).