The Narrow Way

[Episkopos]

No it is not beside the point,if you read the original post and way the the narrow and broad ways are described you will see what i am speaking of....the bible does not forbid individuals from having posessions,making choices in their lives,having a certain degree of privacy in their homes and lives and does not make communal living a requirement of salvation...that is exactly what he is saying....community yes,sharing yes,sacrifice yes...posession of people by people no.

The practise of creating single scripture doctrie that contradicts the rest of the bible is very common here and would give any athist or skeptic a field day.

We are not talking about law, but grace. People can do as they feel they should. Jesus is explaining something that only a few will ever do or realize. There are thousands of excuses why it should not be done. But the word remains there to judge people's motive's by.

As per usual...everything is always sidetracked into a salvation issue. That is the sacred cow.

But very few will experience a fulness of a life in the deeper reaches of the Spirit. What stops them? A holding onto the things of this life. A taking for oneself the things that God would give us if we would wait for Him.

Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

IS this a law? Or is it a reality?

So without realizing it, people will hold their needs out AGAINST a commitment to God...whereas God would give so much more to the one who commits his all to Him.

Why seek to take for ourselves what God will give us abundantly?

How much of the costly ointment did the woman pour out on Jesus' head? How much did the poor widow give to the poor? Was Jesus being legalistic by pointing this out? To a legalist....YES! To one who loves and wishes to give all in return for the love of God...it is an affirmation.

 

[Prentis]

We are not talking about law, but grace. People can do as they feel they should. Jesus is explaining something that only a few will ever do or realize. There are thousands of excuses why it should not be done. But the word remains there to judge people's motive's by.

As per usual...everything is always sidetracked into a salvation issue. That is the sacred cow.

But very few will experience a fulness of a life in the deeper reaches of the Spirit. What stops them? A holding onto the things of this life. A taking for oneself the things that God would give us if we would wait for Him.

Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

IS this a law? Or is it a reality?

So without realizing it, people will hold their needs out AGAINST a commitment to God...whereas God would give so much more to the one who commits his all to Him.

Why seek to take for ourselves what God will give us abundantly?

How much of the costly ointment did the woman pour out on Jesus' head? How much did the poor widow give to the poor? Was Jesus being legalistic by pointing this out? To a legalist....YES! To one who loves and wishes to give all in return for the love of God...it is an affirmation.

Amen!

God gave everything and did not hold anything back... His own son he gave!

We see that the standard of the saint in response to this is the same. Abraham also gave his very own son to God.... The disciples left everything.... Then they shared everything. The standard of a disciple is to hold nothing back from God, to put everything on the altar.

We are called to an extravagant love that throws itself out for the sake of God the same way God did for us. We find the treasure in the field, and we sell EVERYTHING to buy that field... The treasure is Christ.

 

[Strat]

We are not talking about law, but grace. People can do as they feel they should. Jesus is explaining something that only a few will ever do or realize. There are thousands of excuses why it should not be done. But the word remains there to judge people's motive's by.

As per usual...everything is always sidetracked into a salvation issue. That is the sacred cow.

But very few will experience a fulness of a life in the deeper reaches of the Spirit. What stops them? A holding onto the things of this life. A taking for oneself the things that God would give us if we would wait for Him.

Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

IS this a law? Or is it a reality?

So without realizing it, people will hold their needs out AGAINST a commitment to God...whereas God would give so much more to the one who commits his all to Him.

Why seek to take for ourselves what God will give us abundantly?

How much of the costly ointment did the woman pour out on Jesus' head? How much did the poor widow give to the poor? Was Jesus being legalistic by pointing this out? To a legalist....YES! To one who loves and wishes to give all in return for the love of God...it is an affirmation.

Well sir you are certainly a master of ambiguity and saying something without saying it,as a well as a purveyor of guilt self rightously applied...salvation a sacred cow ? Jesus had much to say about it...guess it was important to him.

I have known people like you before,those who surpassed mere salvation long ago and now inhabit the lofty heights and those of us who are not fit to touch the hem of your garment will never get a straight answer to anything.

 

[Prentis]

Well sir you are certainly a master of ambiguity and saying something without saying it,as a well as a purveyor of guilt self rightously applied...salvation a sacred cow ? Jesus had much to say about it...guess it was important to him.

I have known people like you before,those who surpassed mere salvation long ago and now inhabit the lofty heights and those of us who are not fit to touch the hem of your garment will never get a straight answer to anything.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This is not said in a judgmental way, but it is a call to move forward now into the depths of Christ. Most people desire only to know of repentance of dead works and faith towards God, so that their consciences are appeased, and then they want to stop.

But Christ calls us to go deeper. This is only the foundation of faith. Who perceives this and then goes deeper into the things of God?


Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

If we began in faith we must continue in this way. It's not over once we 'believed'.

 

[JohnnyB]

Strat,

You are side stepping, you said, "possession of people by people", we're talking more on the lines of this:

Luke 14:33 So then, none of you can be my disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

We are not even our own in the first place, we were bought with a price.

1 Cor 6:19 you are not your own, you were bought at a price.

We can read these words but then some will say that's not really what it means.

It's a sacrificial life, people will give some, they may give alot, but is it really sacrificial? Are we, in turn, giving up something that might affect our own lifestyles?

You are really presenting an attitude of western culture, believers in poorer countries do not have this attitude, they only have God and the brethren to rely on.

Belonging to a cult and being a disciple of Christ are two different things.

 

[dragonfly]

There is a world of difference between holding what one possesses in a closed hand, or, an open hand.

No-one on an internet forum is in a position to 'know' what another person has given up for the Lord or sacrificed for the Lord, and, in that the Lord said to give our alms in secret, Matt 6:4, there is a very good reason not to be provoked into some sort of competition between ourselves over who can claim, or, be seen to have laid down the most. God works His own character into us as we obey Him. What others 'think' has to become inconsequential by comparison, or we would go crazy.

Hi Episkopos,

I'm wondering which scriptures you would use to support this comment? 'But the word remains there to judge people's motive's by.'


And who is doing the judging?

 

[Strat]

Strat,

You are side stepping, you said, "possession of people by people", we're talking more on the lines of this:

Luke 14:33 So then, none of you can be my disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

We are not even our own in the first place, we were bought with a price.

1 Cor 6:19 you are not your own, you were bought at a price.

We can read these words but then some will say that's not really what it means.

It's a sacrificial life, people will give some, they may give alot, but is it really sacrificial? Are we, in turn, giving up something that might affect our own lifestyles?

You are really presenting an attitude of western culture, believers in poorer countries do not have this attitude, they only have God and the brethren to rely on.

Belonging to a cult and being a disciple of Christ are two different things.

So one cannot enter the kingdom of God if they own anything ? anything meaning exactly that,ANYTHING.......its a direct question that cannot seem to get a direct answer...being presented with the circumstances that would require one to give up everything to follow God is another thing...this i suspect alot of us now living will be required to do in the not too distant future.

What do you own ? do you earn a wage or salary and use a portion of it to sustain yourself ? or do you take it to the leader of your group and give it all to them and they give you back what they think you need ?...my attitude is one of clear communication...wish i could get it in return.

Strat,

You are side stepping, you said, "possession of people by people", we're talking more on the lines of this:

Luke 14:33 So then, none of you can be my disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

We are not even our own in the first place, we were bought with a price.

1 Cor 6:19 you are not your own, you were bought at a price.

We can read these words but then some will say that's not really what it means.

It's a sacrificial life, people will give some, they may give alot, but is it really sacrificial? Are we, in turn, giving up something that might affect our own lifestyles?

You are really presenting an attitude of western culture, believers in poorer countries do not have this attitude, they only have God and the brethren to rely on.

Belonging to a cult and being a disciple of Christ are two different things.

Have you ever encountered a person such as this...."Everything you have belongs to God....now here's what God told me to tell you to do with it"

 

[aspen]

Americans have idealized the 'rugged individualist', but most people in the rest of the world live communally - some, like in the Phillipines do not even have a concept of individualism - their identity is rooted in their community.

My concept of Hell is radical individualism - complete isolation from God, the Body, and ourselves. We were created social - I think our society has idealized a concept that goes against or nature. I think the concept of community (many radicals like to label it socialism or communism) goes against Americanism, not Christianity.

 

[Strat]

Americans have idealized the 'rugged individualist', but most people in the rest of the world live communally - some, like in the Phillipines do not even have a concept of individualism - their identity is rooted in their community.

My concept of Hell is radical individualism - complete isolation from God, the Body, and ourselves. We were created social - I think our society has idealized a concept that goes against or nature. I think the concept of community (many radicals like to label it socialism or communism) goes against Americanism, not Christianity.

This of course is nonsense,America idealized the freedom of the individual to use their talents and abilities to serve both their own needs and those of their community and there were very close communities throughout America for decades and there still are tho fewer in number...how odd it is that all of those other countries who's customs and culture are so superior to ours have sought our aid and assistence so many times and flood our borders with immigrants seeking to escape the poverty,disease and misery of their superior culture...but such is liberal socialist folishness.

The same people who have done everything they can in the last 100 years to destroy communities of wives and husbands,children and grandchildren and Grand parents who lived together to replace them with "communities" of single mothers,delinquent children,drunks,drug addicts all built with tax dollars....yeah let's listen to them some more.

 

[Prentis]

So one cannot enter the kingdom of God if they own anything ? anything meaning exactly that,ANYTHING.......its a direct question that cannot seem to get a direct answer...being presented with the circumstances that would require one to give up everything to follow God is another thing...this i suspect alot of us now living will be required to do in the not too distant future.

What do you own ? do you earn a wage or salary and use a portion of it to sustain yourself ? or do you take it to the leader of your group and give it all to them and they give you back what they think you need ?...my attitude is one of clear communication...wish i could get it in return.

You're repeating yourself like a broken record... You have already asked if it literally meant having nothing, and you have already been answered. You are being defensive about something you think you are hearing and attacking what someone says based on a skewed understanding of it.

This is not about physically owning things... In some cases, men were asked to own nothing... But this is about counting nothing as our own, and sharing our lives with the brethren... giving our lives for the brethren. For Paul, that might mean owning nothing, and for the rich man Philemon it means to open his house for the brethren, and help all those who have need of help. The point is the shared life.

The individualistic mentality so prevalent in North America is an enemy to the gospel, it seeks to destroy the body...

"Everything you have belongs to God....now here's what God told me to tell you to do with it"

The Word tells us to give our lives for the brethren and to do all these things. Why does speaking of this bother you so much?

 

[aspen]

This of course is nonsense,America idealized the freedom of the individual to use their talents and abilities to serve both their own needs and those of their community and there were very close communities throughout America for decades and there still are tho fewer in number...how odd it is that all of those other countries who's customs and culture are so superior to ours have sought our aid and assistence so many times and flood our borders with immigrants seeking to escape the poverty,disease and misery of their superior culture...but such is liberal socialist folishness.

The same people who have done everything they can in the last 100 years to destroy communities of wives and husbands,children and grandchildren and Grand parents who lived together to replace them with "communities" of single mothers,delinquent children,drunks,drug addicts all built with tax dollars....yeah let's listen to them some more.

Consumerism, materialism, relativism and individualism results in the breakdown of community, not liberalism. Fundamentalism encourages us to avoid the reality of change and embraces the sick, status quo. Liberalism acknowledges reality and works to make positive changes.

 

[JohnnyB]

Consumerism, materialism, relativism and individualism results in the breakdown of community, not liberalism. Fundamentalism encourages us to avoid the reality of change and embraces the sick, status quo. Liberalism acknowledges reality and works to make positive changes.

Aspen this thread has nothing to do with politics, it's not about people who want to take and take and take.

It is about living a shared life in Christ with the brethern, if you want to discuss liberalism, start another thread.

 

[aspen]

Aspen this thread has nothing to do with politics, it's not about people who want to take and take and take.

It is about living a shared life in Christ with the brethern, if you want to discuss liberalism, start another thread.

I was just talking about philosophy, not politics, but I understand your point. Anytime someone mentions the word liberal, everyone goes crazy. Like I said before, we were created to be in communion with God and each other so I think it is nature for us to live in community. Being antisocial is the result of Original sin and drives us into the unnatural state of isolation.

I enjoy spending time at the monastery I belong to because of the communion I experience with the brothers. It is good to worship God in community.

 

[Strat]

Consumerism, materialism, relativism and individualism results in the breakdown of community, not liberalism. Fundamentalism encourages us to avoid the reality of change and embraces the sick, status quo. Liberalism acknowledges reality and works to make positive changes.

Liberalism has created a reality of broken homes and parentless children and a society void of any decency,it has done so through legislation,infiltration and degradation of every aspect of society...and then one of its disciples has the gall to claim it offers positive changes...too funny.

You're repeating yourself like a broken record... You have already asked if it literally meant having nothing, and you have already been answered. You are being defensive about something you think you are hearing and attacking what someone says based on a skewed understanding of it.

This is not about physically owning things... In some cases, men were asked to own nothing... But this is about counting nothing as our own, and sharing our lives with the brethren... giving our lives for the brethren. For Paul, that might mean owning nothing, and for the rich man Philemon it means to open his house for the brethren, and help all those who have need of help. The point is the shared life.

The individualistic mentality so prevalent in North America is an enemy to the gospel, it seeks to destroy the body...



The Word tells us to give our lives for the brethren and to do all these things. Why does speaking of this bother you so much?

No i have not received an answer...however your post does express some of what i have been trying to say....i am not bothered,i am simply discussing the issue....are you bothered because you do the same ?

Aspen this thread has nothing to do with politics, it's not about people who want to take and take and take.

It is about living a shared life in Christ with the brethern, if you want to discuss liberalism, start another thread.

Not possible...liberalsim is as much a religion as any religion can be,and as you can see from the contributions of this particular disciple it covers everything,everybody,in all situations at all times.There is one area where i admire liberals...they have an incredible ability to defend failure,no matter what it somebody else's fault,and no matter what their role was in causing a problem they still put forth the absurd proposition that they have the answers

 

[Prentis]

No i have not received an answer...however your post does express some of what i have been trying to say....i am not bothered,i am simply discussing the issue....are you bothered because you do the same ?

The answer is within the posts for whoever would understand it. :)

 

[Strat]

I was just talking about philosophy, not politics, but I understand your point. Anytime someone mentions the word liberal, everyone goes crazy. Like I said before, we were created to be in communion with God and each other so I think it is nature for us to live in community. Being antisocial is the result of Original sin and drives us into the unnatural state of isolation.

I enjoy spending time at the monastery I belong to because of the communion I experience with the brothers. It is good to worship God in community.

Realy,so people never sin in groups or collectively...i didn't know that....removing one's self from sin often results in isolation....bet you didn't know that.

The answer is within the posts for whoever would understand it. :)

Yes, i am faliliar with that routine as well...what would the high and holy do without pious condescension to hide behind...only those in the know,wink,wink...only those in the group,wink,wink h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:

 

[Prentis]

Yes, i am faliliar with that routine as well...what would the high and holy do without pious condescension to hide behind...only those in the know,wink,wink...only those in the group,wink,wink h34r: h34r: h34r: h34r:

That's one attitude to answer with. A humble response would be 'really? I missed it? Let me look again'. That would be the attitude of someone who is open to growth, and learning.

Or do you expect people to endlessly repeat themselves because you haven't understood?

There is no exclusivity in the truth, but people do exclude themselves if they are not willing or not humble. The response of faith makes us to see, but otherwise, though it be right before our eyes, we remain blind to it.

It is the same with this subject. Those who seek to protect their own lives answer defensively, trying to protect whatever they feel is threatened by the subject and trying to retain their own lives.

Those who are here to give their lives for whatever the Lord has respond with faith, because they trust that God can and will sustain them if they follow the truth. So we see that men reveal themselves by their reaction.

 

[aspen]

Trying to pick a fight again Strat? Stop it.

 

[Strat]

That's one attitude to answer with. A humble response would be 'really? I missed it? Let me look again'. That would be the attitude of someone who is open to growth, and learning.

Or do you expect people to endlessly repeat themselves because you haven't understood?

There is no exclusivity in the truth, but people do exclude themselves if they are not willing or not humble. The response of faith makes us to see, but otherwise, though it be right before our eyes, we remain blind to it.

It is the same with this subject. Those who seek to protect their own lives answer defensively, trying to protect whatever they feel is threatened by the subject and trying to retain their own lives.

Those who are here to give their lives for whatever the Lord has respond with faith, because they trust that God can and will sustain them if they follow the truth. So we see that men reveal themselves by their reaction.

And a detailed and informative response would have been appreciated as well,why is it that some people make ambiguous statments and refuse to discuss any details that would reveal exactly what they are saying to say...i have not questioned caring,sharing or fellowship...i have ask if the OP or you or anyone else belives that communal living is a requirement for what the Op has referred to as the "sacred cow" of salvation ? not just spirital communion but physical ?

The statement about salvation being a sacred cow is astounding considering what Jesus has to say about it

Your post drips with judgement but i'm sure you feel too good about yourself to even realize it especially since you want a humble response to it.......translated it comes across as if you were on my level you would know,protect my life ? no just working,surviving and living paycheck to paycheck and helping when i can in ways i can and weary to the bone of the pseudo spiritual convoluted double speak from today's modern christian instead of clear answers to direct questions.

Trying to pick a fight again Strat? Stop it.

No,just trying to get direct clear answers to questions about what people actually believe and are trying to promote....this is a forum isn't it ?

 

[JohnnyB]

And a detailed and informative response would have been appreciated as well,why is it that some people make ambiguous statments and refuse to discuss any details that would reveal exactly what they are saying to say...i have not questioned caring,sharing or fellowship...i have ask if the OP or you or anyone else belives that communal living is a requirement for what the Op has referred to as the "sacred cow" of salvation ? not just spirital communion but physical ?

The statement about salvation being a sacred cow is astounding considering what Jesus has to say about it

Your post drips with judgement but i'm sure you feel too good about yourself to even realize it especially since you want a humble response to it.......translated it comes across as if you were on my level you would know,protect my life ? no just working,surviving and living paycheck to paycheck and helping when i can in ways i can and weary to the bone of the pseudo spiritual convoluted double speak from today's modern christian instead of clear answers to direct questions.



No,just trying to get direct clear answers to questions about what people actually believe and are trying to promote....this is a forum isn't it ?

What does it matter what another person thinks of it being a salvation issue? The sacred cow reference is because people always seem to jump to "is this a requirement for salvation?" Why ask another, instead of finding out from God how He wants you to live?

We were presented with what the Church looked like in Acts, the OP provided the verse, this is what the Church did. They did not seem to be disgruntled as they shared their possessions, they didn't seem to be put out because they had to give thanksgiving constantly. When I read about the Church in Acts, it seems they were filled with joy, loving God and others. It seems God was in them, walking among them.

2000 years later, those who have a vision for this same connection are asked if it is a salvation issue, we are asked if the leaders take your money, if they "own" you.