The New Covenant

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GerhardEbersoehn

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1) What covenant is the Lord referring to in Exodus 19:5? [[post#220]]
2) What covenant is referred to in Exodus 24:7-8?
3) As the rainbow was a token of the everlasting covenant made with Noah and all things living (Genesis 9:16-17), and circumcision was the token of the everlasting covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11): is the keeping of the sabbath day, the token of the covenant made at mount Sinai (Exodus 31:16-18)?

What covenant is referred to in Exodus 19:5-6 !?

HERE IS GOD'S EVERLASTING NEW COVENANT "made with the children of Israel IN TIME -- no temporary covenant, but God's Everlasting New Covenant temporarily "made" with the children of Israel...

'Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed,
and keep My Covenant,
then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me
above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
(Exodus 19:5-6)

First of all note God's Everlasting New Covenant = My Voice = God's Word of Oath = Jesus Christ to come "believed in" (in the future) John 3:16 = 1 Timothy 3:16
 
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Stan B

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Hello there,

I have been reading through several threads, catching up on the weeks entries I have missed while my computer was under repair. The last one I read through, started by @marks:- Faithful and Just to Forgive . . . - brought to mind the subject of the New Covenant, which was brought into the discussion between @marks and @CharismaticLady.

I do not believe that the church which is the Body of Christ, being called out during this dispensation, is in a covenant relationship with God. For the new covenant, as with the old covenant will be made with Israel.

What are your thoughts concerning this?

I fully agree!! The Old Covenant IS between Abraham and ALL of his descendants forever!

The New Covenant is an upgrade of the Old; a New and better Covenant.

But as I read the description of the New Covenant in the prophets, the New Covenant is still far from being realized.
 
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Stan B

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Hi @Nancy,

No, just have a different way of expressing things I think.

I don't know whether the ending of 'the times of the Gentiles', coincides with the up-call of the Church which is Christ's Body, but I will look into it.

Right on!! The times of the Gentiles ends in Rev 7, as the 144,000 are sealed in preparation for the 7th seal of the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's Trouble. And then as we get to Rev 7:9+ we see the saints who are taken out of the Tribulation, and are before the Throne of God.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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1) What covenant is the Lord referring to in Exodus 19:5?
2) What covenant is referred to in Exodus 24:7-8?
3) As the rainbow was a token of the everlasting covenant made with Noah and all things living (Genesis 9:16-17), and circumcision was the token of the everlasting covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11): is the keeping of the sabbath day, the token of the covenant made at mount Sinai (Exodus 31:16-18)?

So,
1) What covenant is the Lord referring to in Exodus 19:5? [[post#220]]
2) What covenant is referred to in Exodus 19:5-6 ? post #221
THEN,
3) What covenant is referred to in Exodus 24:7-8?

BOTH covenants!

The 'old covenant' made by the PEOPLE:
"And he (Moses) took the book (Law) of / containing the covenant,
and read in the audience of the people:
and they said (took oath made covenant), "All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient."
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,
and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant ... THROUGH FAITH WITHOUT SAYING ... which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words" Luke 24:27,44 Hebrews 10:29 !!!!
 
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Stan B

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[QUOTE="And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, [/QUOTE]
Can't find that in my Bible. Do you have a reference?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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3) As the rainbow was a token of the everlasting covenant made with Noah and all things living (Genesis 9:16-17), and circumcision was the token of the everlasting covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11): is the keeping of the sabbath day, the token of the covenant made at mount Sinai (Exodus 31:16-18)? I would value your thoughts on this.

As my three previous posts I hope, show, I do not like to value my thoughts, but to value Scripture as far as I can, solely.

Now in your last remark may be seen a typical case in what happens the moment (translators) value (their) own thoughts. The example may be seen in one's (man's) natural tendency to confuse DIFFERENT things for the one and same thing, in this case, to confuse the <token> or "sign" for the real thing, the covenant.
<<As the rainbow was a token of the everlasting covenant made with Noah and all things living (Genesis 9:16-17), it was a token of the covenant>>, not the covenant.
And just the same,
<<as circumcision was the token of the everlasting covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11)>>, it was not the covenant made; but only the sign of "the Everlasting Covenant" which God, "made" with Abraham and his "Seed" (Christ to come).

SO NOW BE CAREFUL...
<<: is the keeping of the sabbath day, the token of the covenant made at mount Sinai (Exodus 31:16-18)?>>
I am sure the Book does not mention any alternative. No, it reads, simply,
"15 But / Because / WHEREFORE in The Seventh (the name of the Day of the week) is the Sabbath-Day-of-Rest-Holy-TO-THE-LORD .. 16 the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath to observe (keep record / do count of / "remember") the Sabbath-perpetual-covenant- 17 -between-Me-and-the-children-of-Israel-SIGN*." The word 'is' is inserted for no reason. So the word 'sign' / <token> means the Seventh Day Sabbath-of-the-LORD is the sign OF the Covenant and not the Covenant itself.

*These hyphenated words are one thing, the Sabbath as a sign. The division in the Text and the verse-number make things appear more difficult than it really is.
 
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Davy

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God's Covenant was not made at Sinai; therefore the covenant sworn at Sinai was the people's "undertaking" / "covenant" WHICH THEY NO SOONER THAN THEY HAVE MADE IT, BROKE.

When God made His Covenant it was “before the foundation of the world”; when God made that same Covenant of His with Israel, it was <at Sinai>.

The Promise by Faith to Abraham, which Abraham believed, and God counted it to him as righteousness, did not involve the old covenant. The Promise by Faith was always first, even 430 years prior to the giving of the law according to Apostle Paul in Galatians 3. That Promise is what the New Covenant is about, so in reality the New Covenant was always presented first, by Faith, and when Jesus came to die on the cross, it was then in effect by His Blood shed upon the cross. Like Paul also said, the law was given because of transgression, and was to serve as a schoolmaster, but we are no longer under a schoolmaster, and that means the old covenant is no more, it is dead (and I do not confuse the difference between God's laws and the old covenant. They are two separate things, because not all of God's laws have been done away by Christ).
 

charity

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Hi Charity,

Let me create a word picture: -

Exodus 20:4-6 creates a timeline which spans four ages/Days of the Lord, i.e. approx. around 1,000 years each, where the first age begins with the birth of Isaac at the beginning of the third age of mankind. The second age by co-incidence, by my reckoning, begins with the birth of King David. These two ages constitutes the time of the "Fathers" in the Exodus 20:4-6 where the majority of the fathers indulged in idolatrous worship.

By my reckoning the third age began with the birth of Christ, at the beginning of the third age of the descendants of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob and is described in the Exodus passage as the fathers children, with the fourth age of the descendants existence described as the age of the children's children, which brings us to the end of this present age, the end of the fourth age of the existence of the descendants of Abraham.

The end of this present age will see the judgement against the heathen nations for their 2,300 years of trampling the sanctuary of God and His hosts, i.e. all of Israel, when Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that all of Israel will be saved.

Now the question that you have asked is how I am able to interweave Exodus 20:4-6 with Daniel 9:24?

In 9:24 Daniel informs his countrymen that they have period of grace of 490 years to repent of their iniquities of idolatrous worship before the visitation of the fathers iniquities would be visited upon their children and the children's children.

This verse can be broken up into two parts: -

The first part this verse is a call for Israel to repent of and put an end their iniquity: -

"Seventy weeks are determined, i.e. 490 years, For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins,

The second part of this verse falls into the providence of Christ to modify and improve the process of salvation from sin: -

To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

The Starting point of God's Grace towards Israel started in the year 494 BC, based on the consensus understanding that Christ was born in 4 BC and the seventy weeks (of years) being for a period of 490 solar years.

Now since Israel as a whole did not stop their idolatrous worship even after the birth of Christ, the visitation of their iniquities has fallen on the father's children and the children's children which included the destruction of the temple so that their was no longer any place where the yearly sin sacrifice could be presented. Isaiah 65 is a good passage to read with respect to the iniquities of Israel being remembered by God and His response to their iniquities.

Isaiah also tells us that after the completion of the period of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers being visited upon their children and the children's children, God will turn and hear their call to Him and will set about redeeming them and making like new again the Kingdom of Priest, a Holy Nation and His Possession Among the Nations, Covenant for the period of the Summer Harvest of Souls.

Shalom
Hello @Jay Ross,

Thank you very much for responding to my question, and taking the time to give a considered reply. I will print it and take time, with an open Bible, to fully appreciate what you have said.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Davy

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As my three previous posts I hope, show, I do not like to value my thoughts, but to value Scripture as far as I can, solely.

Now in your last remark may be seen a typical case in what happens the moment (translators) value (their) own thoughts. The example may be seen in one's (man's) natural tendency to confuse DIFFERENT things for the one and same thing, in this case, to confuse the <token> or "sign" for the real thing, the covenant.
<<As the rainbow was a token of the everlasting covenant made with Noah and all things living (Genesis 9:16-17), it was a token of the covenant>>, not the covenant.
And just the same,
<<as circumcision was the token of the everlasting covenant made with Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11)>>, it was not the covenant made; but only the sign of "the Everlasting Covenant" which God, "made" with Abraham and his "Seed" (Christ to come).

SO NOW BE CAREFUL...
<<: is the keeping of the sabbath day, the token of the covenant made at mount Sinai (Exodus 31:16-18)?>>
I am sure the Book does not mention any alternative. No, it reads, simply,
"15 But / Because / WHEREFORE in The Seventh (the name of the Day of the week) is the Sabbath-Day-of-Rest-Holy-TO-THE-LORD .. 16 the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath to observe (keep record / do count of / "remember") the Sabbath-perpetual-covenant- 17 -between-Me-and-the-children-of-Israel-SIGN*." The word 'is' is inserted for no reason. So the word 'sign' / <token> means the Seventh Day Sabbath-of-the-LORD is the sign OF the Covenant and not the Covenant itself.

*These hyphenated words are one thing, the Sabbath as a sign. The division in the Text and the verse-number make things appear more difficult than it really is.

Regardless, God's declaration to Israel about keeping the sabbath was later, during the time of Moses, and not involving the Promise by Faith which God first gave to Abraham. The 'everlasting covenant' is about the Promise by Faith, not the law or old covenant.
 

charity

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Ref@ replies #220,#221,#224,#227,

Hello @GerhardEbersoehn,

Thank you for the time and effort you put into replying to my questions. I believe I now understand what you are saying concerning the Old and New Covenant. Sorry to need so much confirmation.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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[QUOTE="And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,
Can't find that in my Bible. Do you have a reference?

'And he took the book of the covenant,
and read in the audience of the people:
and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,
and said, Behold the blood of the covenant,
which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.'

(Exodus 24:7-8)

:)
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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The Promise by Faith to Abraham, which Abraham believed, and God counted it to him as righteousness, did not involve the old covenant. The Promise by Faith was always first, even 430 years prior to the giving of the law according to Apostle Paul in Galatians 3. That Promise is what the New Covenant is about, so in reality the New Covenant was always presented first, by Faith, and when Jesus came to die on the cross, it was then in effect by His Blood shed upon the cross. Like Paul also said, the law was given because of transgression, and was to serve as a schoolmaster, but we are no longer under a schoolmaster, and that means the old covenant is no more, it is dead (and I do not confuse the difference between God's laws and the old covenant. They are two separate things, because not all of God's laws have been done away by Christ).

You presuppose your idea of God's Eternal Covenant for God's Eternal - NEW- Covenant. Your idea, isn't enough. Don't confuse your idea for God's Covenant.
 

Davy

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You presuppose your idea of God's Eternal Covenant for God's Eternal - NEW- Covenant. Your idea, isn't enough. Don't confuse your idea for God's Covenant.

I am not in confusion. The old covenant was never... meant to be an 'everlasting covenant'. I do not confuse the simple idea of words like 'old' vs. 'new'.
 

VictoryinJesus

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I am sorry to have caused you such consternation. There is only one point that I feel it necessary to comment on and that is, reply#173, concerning the absence of the word, 'everlasting' in relation to the covenant made by God, with Israel, at Sinai.


Jeremiah 51:25-26 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the Lord, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. [26] And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

here we are discussing “the corner stone” and covenants and foundations laid which He said no man can lay no other than 1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Paul who said I am an Israelite of Benjamin, those things it was revealed that they ministered not to themselves but to us who preach now the word of grace to come at the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the glory that should follow. The chief corner stone rejected becoming the cornerstone, the stone rejected by the builders. “they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.” and Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark 11:22-23 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. [23] For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Again: (Jeremiah 51:25-26)
(1 John 4:17-18)
What is the burning mountain, O destroying mountain which “they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations;“ ? May say it is not important but in discussing covenants, is not the stone rejected by the builders...the chief corner, no other foundation can be laid, the heart of the gospel of grace to come to you and the glory to follow Christ?
 
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Doug

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1 Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


That is where I’m so confused; you said the believing remnant of Israel and in context “the grace that should come upon you” “by them that have preached the gospel unto you” even going on in context of “the grace” to come at the Revelation of Jesus Christ. What gospel preached? The gospel of grace to the remnant of Israel but then those are not of the new covenant? What does He say of the remnant of Israel?

Peter is writing to the scattered believing Jews who believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23) in which they will reign on earth over the nations with Christ. Peter speaks of grace but is not talking about grace in the same context as Paul; Peter speaks of grace in that Christ will come and restore the kingdom on earth to Israel and blot out their sins.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Regardless, God's declaration to Israel about keeping the sabbath was later, during the time of Moses, and not involving the Promise by Faith which God first gave to Abraham. The 'everlasting covenant' is about the Promise by Faith, not the law or old covenant.

Stick to the facts. The facts are the actual Word(s) of Scripture. No one --not I speaking for myself here-- deny <<God's declaration to Israel about keeping the sabbath was later, during the time of Moses>>, or deny that the <<'everlasting covenant' is about the Promise by Faith [and is] not the law or old covenant>>. You say these things to confuse and mislead the reader, that is all. So is your claim that <<God's declaration to Israel .. was .. not involving the Promise by Faith which God first gave to Abraham>> conspicuously FALSE and meaningless except to muddle the mind.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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The Promise by Faith to Abraham, which Abraham believed, and God counted it to him as righteousness, did not involve the old covenant.

Who said it did? Me? Read your head!

Nevertheless, you say it didn't. Well, I'm telling you it did! Neither Abraham nor Sarah believed The Promise, but LAUGHED. That is the venerable old covenant for you in the pinnacle of its lovers' embrace.
 
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Waiting on him

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Peter is writing to the scattered believing Jews who believed the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 4:23) in which they will reign on earth over the nations with Christ. Peter speaks of grace but is not talking about grace in the same context as Paul; Peter speaks of grace in that Christ will come and restore the kingdom on earth to Israel and blot out their sins.
How does this work with those that are allegedly Israel that have died in their sins for the past 2k years, because they haven’t had their animal sacrifices to atone for their sins?