The Ones Who Are Left…

[Naomi25]

I think you misunderstood what this person was saying. English doesn’t appear to be his first language. I think he was trying to say that he thinks someone was asking an unnecessary question of you and that they were asking it in a wrong spirit?

Well, I may have. I wasn’t entirely sure what either of them were attempting to say. But…that wasn’t really my point…I don’t know that I was attempting to make a point. Oseas seemed to be saying ‘something’ and suggesting it in regards to what I had said. Considering I had ‘said’ a ten word sentence, there was a good chance…indeed, it seemed to me, that he did not know at all what I had meant. I certainly had not been asked. And so, I put forth what I HAD meant. And the two having the conversation could do with that whatever they choose to. My input was strictly neutral…but I thought if they were going to bring what I’d said into it, it might be good that there was some proper context there…you know?

 

[Waiting on him]

Oh dear! I see so much confusion in this thread.

I'll start off with Galatians 4:4-7
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law (Israel), that we (us believers) might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye (us believers) are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou (us believers) art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. (KJV) (parenthesized items are my insertions)

Clearly, Jesus was born under the law, lived his entire life under the law, and all His teachings and parables are directed to those under the law.
In actuality, He was here to fulfill all that the prophets said the Messiah would be...to Israel only!

In the Gospels, he only deals with 2.5 gentiles: The Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-24 where He answered: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." but healed her anyway; The Roman centurion and his servant in Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:2-10; and the Samaritan woman at the well (1/2 Jew) in John 4:3-30.

He even commanded his disciples to NOT go to Gentiles and Samaritans in Matthew 10:5
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (KJV)

Stated differently, Jesus earthly ministry was directed at Israel only...NOT gentiles.

.

 

[Naomi25]

To answer:

Never in Scripture is th elake of fire is referred to as the wrath of god!.

there are a handful of verses that speaks of Gods genral wrath against sinners.
then there is the wrath described as being the time of the tribulation (7 years, 70th week of daniel.)

Here are a few mentions;

Zeph. 1:15, RE. 15:1,7 14:10,19 rev. 16:1 1 thess. 1:10, 1 thess. 5:9, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 6:16-17

Hope this helps

Okay, thanks. I’ll have a look through those passages and study them a little…see what I can make of them in light of the topic.

 

[Oseas]

The spirit believes either you have mold in your house, or you have way to much time on your hands.
Jesus in the scriptures quoted is speaking to Jews in the first century. What gives you the impression that the words are privately spoken to you?

There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-, and the Holy Spirit -who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person): and these three are One.

 

[Waiting on him]

There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-, and the Holy Spirit -who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person): and these three are One.

Thanks!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Apparently my comment about not getting doctrine from the Gospels was misunderstood. To be clear, we can LEARN from the Gospels, but we aren’t COMMANDED to do what’s presented. Our faith is 100% based upon what Jesus did for us at Calvary. We are led by the Holy Spirit to do as He directs us. Remember that the Holy Spirit did not fill believers until Pentecost (the exception being Stephen). Therefore, Jesus commanded them vs our being led by the Holy Spirit.

yes so confusing. A few questions. “We are led by the Holy Spirit to do as He directs us. remember that the Holy Spirit did not fill believers until Pentecost (the exception being Stephen).” Christ said over and over He was led by the Spirit, only doing what He saw the Father do and only saying what He heard the Father say? I don’t think you are saying He wasn’t led by the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit? Why was Stephen an exception? What of Matthew 26:7-13 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. [8] But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? [9] For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. [10] When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. [11] For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. [12] For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. [13] Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

How did she? Without being led by the Spirit of God to do so? Or how did Abraham offer up Issac and there was a ram caught in thicket by his horns? How, If not being led by the Spirit of God, as Moses who “as seeing him who is invisible” ? Hebrews 11:26-27 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. I get the argument over not being filled with the Spirit of God, but how was He not leading in even Samson who Judges 16:3 And Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and took the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and went away with them, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of an hill that is before Hebron.

Does that mean that we, the church (to clarify…’the church’ is all born again believers), should NOT be evangelizing the lost? Absolutely not true! Should we NOT sow Gods’ Word abundantly, regardless of what type of ground the seeds fall on? Absolutely not true! Those that are gifted by the Holy Spirit to preach and/or teach will do so.

but that is what is being said. (Imo) it is being said it is all obsolete.(or that is what I’m taking away from it). History. Not alive and leading in “deliver us from evil” Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. [3] Give us day by day our daily bread. [4] And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Because if you (not you but we) can take the heart out of the gospels and gut it then there is no reason to follow after (from the gospels) “and forgive us our trespasses; for we also forgive everyone that is indebted unto us.” I’m not saying that is what you are claiming but in saying the gospels are only to the Jews, yes I do misunderstand also where you said “Apparently my comment about not getting doctrine from the Gospels was misunderstood.” Because what of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Did Jesus tell His disciples and followers to do the things that Paul listed? If He did, I have yet to find it in the Gospels.

yes. In Matthew 23:10-11 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Luke 22:24-27 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. [25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

1 Peter 5:2-5 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; [3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. [4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. [5] Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Did Christ teach(instruct) His disciples to become “helpers” or to become Masters and Lord’s?

 

[charity]

Matthew 13:24-30
. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’… gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

Hi @Naomi25,

I have only now read your OP, and have not read all of the responses that you have received, so if I repeat what others have said, I apologise.

* My first thought is that the parables of Matthew 13 are described by the Lord, as 'The mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven' or 'of God' (Matthew 13:11 & Luke 8:10). A parable urges the believer to consider deeply the ways of God with His People (Israel), and to look for the hidden causes and workings which are veiled from the eyes of the unbelieving. These things have been kept secret from the foundation of the world (Matthew 13: 34-35). They lead us to consider the hidden causes of the failure of Israel in relation to the kingdom and look forward to the time when all will be put right. The parables were not used to make the teaching plainer, but to veil the teaching from the majority.

* You have quoted Matthew 13:24-30 & Matthew 13:37-43, the parable itself with it's divine explanation: and compare the words of verses 30 & 40-42, with that of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, especially the words, 'gather ye together first the tares' (v.30), which are seen to be, 'all things that offend, and them which do iniquity' (verse 42). Comparing, 'we which are alive and remain' in (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

'Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
Gather ye together first the tares,
and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.'
(Matthew 13:30)

'The Son of man shall send forth His angels,
and they shall gather out of His kingdom
all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth
as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.'
(Mat 13:41-43)

'For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord. '
(1 Thessalonians 4:17)

* How wonderful it is, isn't it? That those who have died, 'in Christ,' shall rise first: the change taking place in them as described in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; where mortal puts on immortality. Then those believers who are alive and remain: who (wonderfully) will not see death (fulfilling John 11:26); will be raised to meet the believers who have been raised to life, and will themselves also be changed as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Then both will meet the coming Lord in the air, with spiritual bodies designed for resurrection life. Praise God!

* What a wonderful picture this is, isn't it? Though this is not my hope: for as a member of the Church which is His (Christ's) Body, my hope is that of Col 3:3-4:-

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'​

* Thank you for this thought process though, @Naomi25, though it does not really address the point you have raised I'm afraid.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's your opinion that you have provided verses showing a 1,000 year Kingdomon this earth

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is found no place in scripture, I have shown that all your claims made are false

Example : You claimed Isaiah 11 & 65 represented a Millennial Kingdom, you were shown it represents the New Heaven And Earth

Isaiah Chapters 11 & 65 Is The Very Same Place, The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth, Don't Be Deceived By Claims This Represents A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth

Same Wolf & Lamb Together, And Lion Eating Straw Like The Bullock/Ox, In The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth

(For, Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth)

Isaiah 65:17-18 & 25KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 11:6-7KJV
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Thus ends another wasted conversation with you.

You cannot prove 1,000 years is non literaL AND REFERS TO "ETERNAL; TIME". You cannot even define what eternal time means as per the thousand years. You also called it the church age and it is in effect now- so those who refuesed to worship the beast are living and reigning with christ NOW. So who was the beast and when did these die?

You love crowing about Isaiah 65 so lets look:

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Children in the eternal time kingdom will die, people will sin, people build houses plant crops etc.etc.etc. All in glorified bodies! For flesh and blood cannot inherit th ekingdom of heaven. so are the lion and lamb and wolfd and bull and snake all glorified spiritual creatures?

You keep vomiting out the same verses you misapply and fail to ansewr trhe necessary questions in thecontext of the verses surroundingf the 1,000 years.

Because you reject Jesus reigning on earth- you are forced to say these verses apply to the "eternal time" kingdom".

1. Zechariah 14:16
   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Zechariah 14:18
   And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Zechariah 14:19
   This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Because you rejectr a literal reign of Jesus on earth, these also must be in th enew heavens and new earth you crow about in your scenario:
Joel 3:
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lord dwelleth in Zion.

Sorryy - you try hard and believe intensely but you have been taught very very very very wrong!

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

yes so confusing. A few questions. “We are led by the Holy Spirit to do as He directs us. remember that the Holy Spirit did not fill believers until Pentecost (the exception being Stephen).” Christ said over and over He was led by the Spirit, only doing what He saw the Father do and only saying what He heard the Father say? I don’t think you are saying He wasn’t led by the Spirit, or filled with the Spirit? Why was Stephen an exception?

Jesus, while on earth, was both God AND human at the same time. How can the triune God become flesh and still remain God? Jesus is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all at the same time. How is that possible? It's beyond human comprehension to know or understand. John 1:1-4;14 shows that Jesus is the embodiment of Gods' Word:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

How is that possible? I haven't a clue. But God said it. I believe it.

What of Matthew 26:7-13 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. [8] But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? [9] For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. [10] When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. [11] For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always. [12] For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial. [13] Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

How did she? Without being led by the Spirit of God to do so? Or how did Abraham offer up Issac and there was a ram caught in thicket by his horns? How, If not being led by the Spirit of God, as Moses who “as seeing him who is invisible” ? Hebrews 11:26-27 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. [27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. I get the argument over not being filled with the Spirit of God, but how was He not leading in even Samson who Judges 16:3 And Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and took the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and went away with them, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of an hill that is before Hebron.

Being filled with the spirit and being led by the spirit are not the same thing. As I see it, we can be always led by the indwelling Spirit (but we can choose otherwise at will) or 'temporarily' by the spirit if God does decides to do it that way. (Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (KJV)) Yes, Jesus was always filled with the Spirit. He's God. There's many in the Old Testament that were led by the spirit. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc. come to mind. There's many that the Bible indicates they were filled with the spirit, Moses among them. Was he spirit filled from when he was born, went out and killed the Egyptian (of his own decision and power), or when God told him that he would be the one to lead Israel out of Egyptian bondage? Moses had to be filled with the spirit when he faced Herod, brought down plagues, parted the Red Sea, received the 10 Commandments, etc. Being filled with the spirit gave him various abilities apparently not given anyone else in the Bible.

Note, too, that the writers of the Bible must have been filled with the Holy Spirit as well as the Spirit effectively 'told' them what to write as shown in 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect (fully complete), throughly furnished unto all good works. (KJV) (parenthesized text is my addition)

Did they just 'dream it up' like fiction writers, various poets, composers, or artists? Of course not. God, working through the Holy Spirit, put the words in their hearts and they wrote them down. Clearly Paul is telling us that scripture is for our doctrine, correction, etc, thus, we are ready to do whatever He has called us to do. Does this mean that every line of scripture is good for doctrine? Not so. One need only look at some of the 'baddies' in scripture such as King Herod to know what's right and wrong. It comes down to rightly dividing scripture:

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)

Some Bible translations show this as 'rightly handling', 'rightly explaining', and 'correctly handles'. Regardless of the wording, Like any course in school, Bible study is needed to understand the subject. No matter how much one knows and understands the Bible, every time we delve into it, there's always something new we haven't seen or remembered.

In the 4 Gospels, only Jesus is filled with the Spirit. Others are led by the Spirit. When Jesus sent out His disciples in Matthew 10:5-15, they had to be filled with the Holy Spirit to perform the miracles He commanded them to do. Were they always filled, temporarily filled, partially filled? No one can say. In light of John 14:16,26; John 15:26, and John 16:7 I can only conclude the Holy Spirit was not 'permanent' within them until Pentecost.

Joh14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (KJV)

All those present at Pentecost were filled by the Holy Spirit. So the disciples had to be there.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (KJV)

As for Stephen, he was filled with the Spirit as well -

Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. (KJV) (underlining is mine)

Was he filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? The Bible doesn't say. But it would be reasonable that he was.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

but that is what is being said. (Imo) it is being said it is all obsolete.(or that is what I’m taking away from it). History. Not alive and leading in “deliver us from evil” Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. [3] Give us day by day our daily bread. [4] And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Because if you (not you but we) can take the heart out of the gospels and gut it then there is no reason to follow after (from the gospels) “and forgive us our trespasses; for we also forgive everyone that is indebted unto us.” I’m not saying that is what you are claiming but in saying the gospels are only to the Jews, yes I do misunderstand also where you said “Apparently my comment about not getting doctrine from the Gospels was misunderstood.” Because what of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I’m not ‘gutting’ the Gospel in any way. What Jesus said and did is very important to our walk with Him. His death for our sin is WHY we live for him, not as slaves, but willing servants as Paul wrote in Romans 12:1-2

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (KJV)

Each of us are expected to provide service (works and/or ministry) for Him. As we are filled with the Spirit when we get saved, doing things ‘in the Spirit’ is quite different from doing things ‘in the flesh’. When we are in the Spirit, work is easy and God provides us the motivation and the means to do so. However, these works are not necessarily ministerial efforts directly in Gods’ service. This past March, I was having financial problems and my 14 YO car needed over $2500 just to safely stay on the road. I prayed that if God wanted me to continue in my transportation ministry at church, He’d have to provide a means to do so! I was on the way out the door to buy a car I found on Carfax with no trade and nothing down and very good credit rating. But God, in His perfect timing, led a church member that knew my situation to put a cashiers check for $1200 in my door some time before I left! Had either I or that church member not been spirit filled and led, it likely would not have worked out so perfectly.

Your reference to what is commonly called the “Lords’ Prayer” in Matthew 6: 9-13 and Luke 11:2-4 isn’t being ‘gutted’ or lessened in importance in any way. However, unlike some denominations that repeat it verbatim in a drone-like manner, in actuality it is a model of how to pray, not a ‘prewritten prayer’ as plentifully found in some denominational churches. Jesus specifically told us in Matthew 6:7-8 to avoid countless repetitions:

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (KJV)

Instead, it starts out in specifically directing us who to pray to: “Our Father, which art in Heaven”. (not Mary or the saints) Then follow that with praise: “Hallowed be thy name”. “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” is a statement of our desires, hope and faith. It also asks that He guide and direct those on earth through the Holy Spirit. “Give us this day our daily bread” is asking for his continued provision. “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors” This likely speaks of the laws of Israel concerning debts and their forgiveness. Jesus goes on to talk about ‘trespasses’ which is our sins against Him, His Word, as well as hurts we’ve caused others.

“And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil” Paul expands upon this in 1 Corinthians 10:13 -
1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (KJV)
“For Thou art the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever, Amen” Worshipfully praises and glorifies God, forever. To be direct, we are to pray from the heart as led by the Spirit, not from a book.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

In Matthew 23:10-11 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. [11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Luke 22:24-27 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. [25] And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. [26] But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. [27] For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

1 Peter 5:2-5 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; [3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. [4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. [5] Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Did Christ teach(instruct) His disciples to become “helpers” or to become Masters and Lord’s?

It would seem you’ve mixed the Gospels (written to Israel) and Pauls writings to believers (Romans-Philemon) together and got confused.

In Luke, it’s apparent that the disciples were no different from any group of people, then or now. Remember that at the time of Jesus, Israel was under direct rule of Rome (Gentiles). The 12 wanted to know whether it is better to be a servant or a ruler. Jesus told them they will be leaders in verses Luke 22:29-30.

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (KJV)

Recognize that James and Peter are written to the scattered Jews of Israel (not the Gentile church) that were being hunted and persecuted by ‘Super Jew’ believers like Saul (before being met by Jesus on the road to Damascus) that did all they could to destroy Jews that believed that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ). Peter is writing 20 years or more after Jesus ascended into Heaven. In the verses you quoted, he is telling those believers to be examples (witnesses, and testimony) of Jesus being the promised Messiah. Peter is instructing them to be good shepherds, not rulers or dictators of those in the countries indicated in 1 Peter 1:1.

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles as the Lord told Ananias in Acts 9:10-16 – (only 15-16 shown for brevity)

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (KJV)

In 1 Corinthians 9:19, Paul is stating that he is a servant of the Lord, as are we. Taking one verse out of context can lead to misinterpretation of intent. Here’s the full context in 1 Corinthians 9:16-23:

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (KJV)

Paul willingly served as we are called to do. His most important spiritual gift was that of evangelism. He states that he is willing to ‘do whatever it takes’ to win Jews (under the laws of Moses), Gentiles (not under the Mosaic law) to faith in Christ alone, without works (1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 2:8-9). He did it all willingly. Prior to Jesus meeting him on the road to Damascus, Paul was a ‘super Jew’…born a Jew, a member of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees as well. As such, he was part of the ‘elite’, or upper 1% as we’d call them today. He was very well educated in the Old Testament and knew it backwards and forwards. He perceived Jesus as a threat to Judiasm as he could not possibly be the Messiah…the son of a carpenter.

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. (KJV)

But after the road to Damascus, he taught that Jesus WAS indeed the risen Messiah in the synogogues. (no Gentiles in there) Only some years later, was he led by the Spirit into the desert to be taught by Jesus himself over a period of 3 years the many ‘mysteries’ (hidden truths) of salvation by faith alone in Jesus’ death on the cross. THEN he went to the Gentiles.

 

[Oseas]

Ok..so. It seems I have inadvertently stepped into a conversation that is not mine. Or been bought into it. I fully confess that I am unsure of the reason behind ‘Waiting on hims’ question and response to my post….however. I prefer if you did NOT try and interpret what I ‘meant’. At least without actually speaking to me.

What I MEANT, when I said “Jesus spoke to the World”, is, unsurprisingly….”Jesus spoke to the World”.
Why?
It SAYS it.

John 18:20
[20] Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.

If we wish to consider what Christ might have meant by ‘I have spoken openly to the world’, there are various thoughts put forward by scholars. But, foremost in our consideration should be scripture itself.

Colossians 1:5-6
[5] because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, [6] which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,

Now, as far spread as Paul himself took the gospel, we can hardly say that it was flourishing in ‘the whole world’. It just wasn’t. So clearly ‘world’ is somehow equated with ‘Middle East/Asia Minor’. The heartbeat of the prophetic land…comic geography. And while Jesus specifically commands us to take it outwards ‘to the ENDS of the earth’…to all places, biblically, we can look at John 18:20 and say that when Jesus declared he had spoken to the world, he had done so. Both in a cosmic geography way, and in a way where his own disciples would see the commission filled later.

NOW…that you are aware of what I mean…you may continue your word war. Which I in no way want a part of.
Cheers.

Thank you for your reply, Naomi.

I was aware of what you meant by/through the gift of to discern spirits. As you know, the Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to render account. Hebrews 4:v.12-13

My focus was to confirm what JESUS had said by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, and you was testifying according JESUS had said, but the spirit of Waiting in him was contradicting what JESUS literally said. Because of this, by the same spirit he replied the same post of mine, and you also replied, then he said to me: (Quote)- " The spirit believes either you have mold in your house, or you have way to much time on your hands.
Jesus in the scriptures quoted is speaking to Jews in the first century, What gives you the impression that the words are privately spoken to you? This answer of Waiting in him makes me remember of 1Kings 22:v.24 to 28

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25,

I have only now read your OP, and have not read all of the responses that you have received, so if I repeat what others have said, I apologise.

Hi Chris! Thanks for your reply. I confess…I have not read all here too…just the ones addressed to me. It’d be nice to have the time to be able to sit and read every reply, however…! That said, no worries if you must repeat a question.

.
* My first thought is that the parables of Matthew 13 are described by the Lord, as 'The mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven' or 'of God' (Matthew 13:11 & Luke 8:10). A parable urges the believer to consider deeply the ways of God with His People (Israel), and to look for the hidden causes and workings which are veiled from the eyes of the unbelieving. These things have been kept secret from the foundation of the world (Matthew 13: 34-35). They lead us to consider the hidden causes of the failure of Israel in relation to the kingdom and look forward to the time when all will be put right. The parables were not used to make the teaching plainer, but to veil the teaching from the majority.

“The parables were not used to make the teaching plainer, but to veil the teaching from the majority”…yes, perhaps, it is true for unbelievers. But for the believers “it is for you to know”. And when it comes to some of the parables told in Matt 13, specifically the parable of the sower and the weeds, he gives explanations for those parables that make them rather clearer than he usually makes them. Indeed, he explains them TO the disciples. Are we not, then, supposed to understand that he wished believers to hold a particular understanding of these parables? Why might he have done that, do you think?

.
* You have quoted Matthew 13:24-30 & Matthew 13:37-43, the parable itself with it's divine explanation: and compare the words of verses 30 & 40-42, with that of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, especially the words, 'gather ye together first the tares' (v.30), which are seen to be, 'all things that offend, and them which do iniquity' (verse 42). Comparing, 'we which are alive and remain' in (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

'Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
Gather ye together first the tares,
and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.'
(Matthew 13:30)

'The Son of man shall send forth His angels,
and they shall gather out of His kingdom
all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:
there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth
as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.'
(Mat 13:41-43)

'For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord. '
(1 Thessalonians 4:17)

* How wonderful it is, isn't it? That those who have died, 'in Christ,' shall rise first: the change taking place in them as described in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; where mortal puts on immortality. Then those believers who are alive and remain: who (wonderfully) will not see death (fulfilling John 11:26); will be raised to meet the believers who have been raised to life, and will themselves also be changed as described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Then both will meet the coming Lord in the air, with spiritual bodies designed for resurrection life. Praise God!

* What a wonderful picture this is, isn't it? Though this is not my hope: for as a member of the Church which is His (Christ's) Body, my hope is that of Col 3:3-4:-

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'​

* Thank you for this thought process though, @Naomi25, though it does not really address the point you have raised I'm afraid.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It is an amazing picture, no matter how you may look at it. I truly don’t care which order it happens in, to be honest…if God sends his angels to ‘reap’ the sinful first, then comes for those who are his (the first of those being the dead in Christ)…or, if it happens the other way. I’m not sure it ultimately matters. All that matters is that the universe shall be put right again…sin will be no more, sickness, sadness, injustice. And Christ will be with his people.
It’s not just a compelling hope…its the only hope…and as hard as this life can get, I often feel like I live in the backwards glow of it…if that at all makes any sense.

 

[Naomi25]

Thank you for your reply, Naomi.

I was aware of what you meant by/through the gift of to discern spirits. As you know, the Word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to render account. Hebrews 4:v.12-13

My focus was to confirm what JESUS had said by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, and you was testifying according JESUS had said, but the spirit of Waiting in him was contradicting what JESUS literally said. Because of this, by the same spirit he replied the same post of mine, and you also replied, then he said to me: (Quote)- " The spirit believes either you have mold in your house, or you have way to much time on your hands.
Jesus in the scriptures quoted is speaking to Jews in the first century, What gives you the impression that the words are privately spoken to you? This answer of Waiting in him makes me remember of 1Kings 22:v.24 to 28

I’m clearly missing much of the back story there. I was rather baffled by his short question and even shorter response to me.
Anyway, thanks for your answer and explaining to me what you’d meant…God bless your ongoing discussions with him!

 

[n2thelight]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The dead are already with Christ ,how else do they come back with Him ?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."

 

[n2thelight]

Nobody dies the 2nd death at the return of Christ ,all shall be changed ,the difference is in the state of your soul ,ie, Mortal or Immortal

The lake of fire happens at the end of the Millennium after the White Throne Judgement

 

[charity]

Hi Chris! Thanks for your reply. I confess…I have not read all here too…just the ones addressed to me. It’d be nice to have the time to be able to sit and read every reply, however…! That said, no worries if you must repeat a question.

“The parables were not used to make the teaching plainer, but to veil the teaching from the majority”…yes, perhaps, it is true for unbelievers. But for the believers “it is for you to know”. And when it comes to some of the parables told in Matt 13, specifically the parable of the sower and the weeds, he gives explanations for those parables that make them rather clearer than he usually makes them. Indeed, he explains them TO the disciples. Are we not, then, supposed to understand that he wished believers to hold a particular understanding of these parables? Why might he have done that, do you think?

It is an amazing picture, no matter how you may look at it. I truly don’t care which order it happens in, to be honest…if God sends his angels to ‘reap’ the sinful first, then comes for those who are his (the first of those being the dead in Christ)…or, if it happens the other way. I’m not sure it ultimately matters. All that matters is that the universe shall be put right again…sin will be no more, sickness, sadness, injustice. And Christ will be with his people.
It’s not just a compelling hope…its the only hope…and as hard as this life can get, I often feel like I live in the backwards glow of it…if that at all makes any sense.

'He hath made every thing beautiful in His time:
also He hath set the world in their heart,
so that no man can find out the work that God maketh
from the beginning to the end.'
(Ecc 3:11)

Hello @Naomi25,

Thank you for your response.

Yes, resurrection is what we all look for, I agree. It is our means of entry into life eternal, that gift of God, which is ours by faith in the all-sufficiency of the sacrifice of God's only Begotten Son.

Like yourself, I am not clear as to the order of events, but I believe that all will be fulfilled, in God's time.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It would seem you’ve mixed the Gospels (written to Israel) and Pauls writings to believers (Romans-Philemon) together and got confused.

In Luke, it’s apparent that the disciples were no different from any group of people, then or now. Remember that at the time of Jesus, Israel was under direct rule of Rome (Gentiles). The 12 wanted to know whether it is better to be a servant or a ruler. Jesus told them they will be leaders in verses Luke 22:29-30.

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (KJV)

Recognize that James and Peter are written to the scattered Jews of Israel (not the Gentile church) that were being hunted and persecuted by ‘Super Jew’ believers like Saul (before being met by Jesus on the road to Damascus) that did all they could to destroy Jews that believed that Jesus was the Messiah (Christ). Peter is writing 20 years or more after Jesus ascended into Heaven. In the verses you quoted, he is telling those believers to be examples (witnesses, and testimony) of Jesus being the promised Messiah. Peter is instructing them to be good shepherds, not rulers or dictators of those in the countries indicated in 1 Peter 1:1.

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles as the Lord told Ananias in Acts 9:10-16 – (only 15-16 shown for brevity)

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (KJV)

In 1 Corinthians 9:19, Paul is stating that he is a servant of the Lord, as are we. Taking one verse out of context can lead to misinterpretation of intent. Here’s the full context in 1 Corinthians 9:16-23:

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (KJV)

Paul willingly served as we are called to do. His most important spiritual gift was that of evangelism. He states that he is willing to ‘do whatever it takes’ to win Jews (under the laws of Moses), Gentiles (not under the Mosaic law) to faith in Christ alone, without works (1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 2:8-9). He did it all willingly. Prior to Jesus meeting him on the road to Damascus, Paul was a ‘super Jew’…born a Jew, a member of the Sanhedrin and Pharisees as well. As such, he was part of the ‘elite’, or upper 1% as we’d call them today. He was very well educated in the Old Testament and knew it backwards and forwards. He perceived Jesus as a threat to Judiasm as he could not possibly be the Messiah…the son of a carpenter.

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. (KJV)

But after the road to Damascus, he taught that Jesus WAS indeed the risen Messiah in the synogogues. (no Gentiles in there) Only some years later, was he led by the Spirit into the desert to be taught by Jesus himself over a period of 3 years the many ‘mysteries’ (hidden truths) of salvation by faith alone in Jesus’ death on the cross. THEN he went to the Gentiles.

thank you for taking the time to respond. All three post is a lot and I admit to being overwhelmed. I’ve printed your responses out and will read over them more throughly before responding. It may take some time.

 

[Keraz]

The dead are already with Christ ,how else do they come back with Him ?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

We are told exactly who it is that Jesus will bring when He Returns:
Revelation 20:4....I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus, they came to life again and reigned with Christ for the next thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 Though the rest of the dead do not come to life again until the thousand years have ended.

Paul does NOT say all the dead in Christ, will be raised when Jesus Returns.
Also Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 plainly it is only the armies of heaven, who accompany Him.

It is necessary to be clear on this, or all sorts of fanciful beliefs arise.

 

[Davy]

I do agree that there can be a tend…whether its in ‘old time’ preachers, or ‘new time relevance’ that would lead people to not heed the word as inerrant and divine. Which it is…which it must be regarded as and protected as.
But, there can be great value in considering those God chose and used TO write his inerrant word. We can imagine if he’d inspired the bible today…there are many cultural references and events that would hold meaning to us…meanings that would make the truths he shared through his ‘prophets and apostles’ have even greater significance and relevance. I don’t think its a bad thing for us today to attempt to put ourselves in the place and understanding of both audience and writers of scriptures, in order to view those eternal truths God gave them in the light the original audience received them. It might not fundamentally change them, but it could give them a new depth and flavour that is beautiful.

Nah, those things are a trap, like I said. What's important is to heed what GOD says, even though He spoke it through His chosen prophets. If that isn't understood first, then trying to delve into the 'culture of caring' politically correct philosophy of men is like a child whining while grown ups are trying to have a conversation.