The reason I mention John not calling it the first resurrection of the 1,000 years isn't because I disagree with the statement, but because you're using words that John didn't write (adding to the book) to create a separate event that might justify your theory. In other words, you're adjusting scripture to conform to your doctrine. There are two end-time resurrections spoken of in the Bible. The first, before the 1,000 years, is for those who went through the tribulation and didn't worship the beast and/or his image and didn't take his mark. The second one, on the last day, is for everyone else.
The Pre-Trib Rapture
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The reason I mention John not calling it the first resurrection of the 1,000 years isn't because I disagree with the statement, but because you're using words that John didn't write (adding to the book) to create a separate event that might justify your theory. In other words, you're adjusting scripture to conform to your doctrine. There are two end-time resurrections spoken of in the Bible. The first, before the 1,000 years, is for those who went through the tribulation and didn't worship the beast and/or his image and didn't take his mark. The second one, on the last day, is for everyone else.
You are saying the resurrection of I Thess. 4:14 will not take place. You would have me believe the souls of the dead in Christ will not be resurrected until the resurrection at the end of the 1,000 years.
John stated that only "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hand", Rev. 20:4, will be resurrectedn in the resurrection of which John speaks.
I'll be 91 next month and my chances of living until I have can refuse to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark in my hand are pretty slim.
How about you, TWC?
God Bless you. Charlie.
tomwebster
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The souls of the dead are not in a hole in the ground, they are with God on one side of the gulf or the other. The moment we die our souls return to God (Ecc 12:6-7). That is the subject of I Thes 4: 14.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
They rise first because they are already with Him from the moment they died. When we die our flesh body is put into the ground to decay, it returns to dust, but our soul and spirit puts on our breath (aēr) body. It is (harpazō) “to seize (in various applications) : - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)” of our flesh body.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (G109) : and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The timing of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 isn't mentioned. Revelation 20:5 states that the rest of the dead would not rise until after the 1,000 years.
John 11:17-24
On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 5:28-30
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 11:17-24
On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
John 5:28-30
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
tomwebster
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Twc, Rev 20:5 is not talking about a body in the grave it’s talking about a spiritual body that is still mortal (liable to die). Those in verse 4 are the ones that had but on the immortal. (unending existence)
2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (G2227), except it die (G599) :
G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieō
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively) : - make alive, give life, quicken.
G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively) : - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial (G2032) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (G1919) : but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
G2032
ἐπουράνιος
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.
G1919
ἐπίγειος
epigeios
ep-ig'-i-os
From G1909 and G1093; worldly (physically or morally) : - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption (G5356) ; it is raised in incorruption (G861) :
G5356
φθορά
phthora
fthor-ah'
From G5351; decay, that is, ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) : - corruption, destroy, perish.
G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Dear Tom:
Thank you for you post. Please allow me to comment on parts of it..
When man issues from the womb and begins to breathe, the spirit of life, which is in the blood of man, is put there by the Word who lighteth every man that cometh into the world. That is the "true light" of John 1:9.
That is the spirit of man of Ecc. 12:6-7, not the soul of man. The soul of man is a spiritual entity. Ecc. 12:7 speaks of the spirit not of the soul and states the spirit returns unto God who gave it (by means of the Word of John 1:1).
No, Tom, the souls of those who have been saved go to heaven when the body dies, as did the soul of the thief on the cross. The body, with its blood, decays, and the spirit, which was in the blood, returns to God.
There is lack of agreement as to where the souls of men who have not been saved go to, to await resurrection.
God Bless you. Charlie
Thank you for you post. Please allow me to comment on parts of it..
When man issues from the womb and begins to breathe, the spirit of life, which is in the blood of man, is put there by the Word who lighteth every man that cometh into the world. That is the "true light" of John 1:9.
That is the spirit of man of Ecc. 12:6-7, not the soul of man. The soul of man is a spiritual entity. Ecc. 12:7 speaks of the spirit not of the soul and states the spirit returns unto God who gave it (by means of the Word of John 1:1).
No, Tom, the souls of those who have been saved go to heaven when the body dies, as did the soul of the thief on the cross. The body, with its blood, decays, and the spirit, which was in the blood, returns to God.
There is lack of agreement as to where the souls of men who have not been saved go to, to await resurrection.
God Bless you. Charlie
tomwebster
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Yes there is a “lack of agreement" because people are not studying the Word of God but are getting their information from false teachers and false prophets. At death ALL SOULS return to God and are on one of two sides of that gulf just as Christ says in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. Christ does not say that is a parable. The resurrection of the unsaved happens at the end of the millennium when their immortal bodies put on immortality or are destroyed. The millennium is a time of teaching and discipline.
When TWC inferred the pre-trib doctrine is a lie right out of the serpent's mouth, that is not equating all those who believe the doctrine with the serpent. Many on that doctrine do intend to accept only Christ Jesus and are brethren. But certain ones I believe were behind the start of the movement, and were not deceived and know it's wrong. Those intentionally intend to subvert the time of Christ's return and our gathering.
The Christian historian Ernest Sandeen mentioned there were members of the Illuminati order in some of the churches in Britain in Darby's day that were throwing around some of the ideas, hap-hazardly quoting Scripture out of context. In 2 Thess.2 Apostle Paul was repeating events involving Christ's return and our gathering for the very reasons TWC mentioned, that some false prophets among the Thessalonians were trying to mix up the timing and events, actually trying to confuse Christ's Body on the issue, on purpose.
This appears to be one the New Testament Messages quite a few brethren miss. There has been a battle over the correct timing of Christ's return between His saints and the wolves that creep in among Christ's Body. It first began in the early Church during Apostle Paul's day (Acts 20:28-31).
The "crept in unawares" Message is a huge 'be careful how you hear and what you hear' type of warning within Scripture. It applies especially to our teachers right within Christ's Body, not outside it (as per Paul in Acts 20:28-31 again). Our Lord Jesus warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing that creep into His Body, and the 'hireling' which only preaches for barley (money), and His warning about the "tares" of Matt.13. That's why we are to be especially careful to check out our teachers.
Inevitably, some brethren are still going to be deceived by listening to men's doctrines which originate from the 'wolves' within Christ's Body. That working is like a 'test' God allows upon His servants. It actually began in OT times upon Israel (Judges 2 & 3). It has continued among Christ's Church. Some, to their danger, simply are not aware of that false working and don't watch out for it.
One of the biggest results of that 'nakedness' and 'shame' you left out is... Deception in worship of the wrong messiah. That comes from NOT knowing the times and the seasons leading up to Christ's return.
Christ's coming is going to be "as a thief" ONLY upon the Deceived. Just as God let Noah know what was coming, likewise those who stay awake and sober will also know. Some Churches on the pre-trib doctrine use that "as a thief" and "any moment" phrases just about weekly, misapplying what Paul and our Lord Jesus were really warning.
You're wrong about that, because watching for it is the same as 'waiting' for it; and I'll show how even by Scripture you quoted:
Matt.24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Do you know what a "watch" is our Lord Jesus mentioned? It's a certain block of time, like a shift. Watchmen are assigned different shifts to stay up watching. Our Lord is saying for us to be like the watchman, and to KNOW in what "watch" the thief would come. I can tell you right now per Scripture, that final 'watch' is within a 3.5 day period of Christ's return. No man knows the exact day or hour, but our Lord Jesus did give us in what "watch" to be watching. It involves the signs of the end He gave in that same chapter.
Matt.24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
The Lord will make that faithful and wise servant ruler over all His goods for doing what? For watching like the watchman, for giving his household "meat in due season", all the way up to Christ's return. What's that "meat in due season"? It's The Lord's teaching of "strong meat" of His Word (Heb.5). It's especially about the signs of the end He gave us to watch for.
Matt.24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Those 48-51 verses are about His deceived servants who do NOT... watch, nor wait for Him. Because they don't know the times and the seasons they aren't able to watch, nor know in "what watch" the thief comes. That's why those will think Christ has delayed His coming, and will go back to their daily grind not knowing the times they're in. For those, Christ's coming will take them by surprise, "as a thief in the night". That is not just about unbelievers, but deceived believers that aren't watching the signs our Lord Jesus gave.
1 Thess.5 has a different flow to it than what you posted...
1Thes 5:1-7
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
No need to write to you about the times and the seasons Paul says, for they already knew them, and thus knew Christ's coming will be as a thief in the night, but upon whom?
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
When the deceived who are drunken in the night, being in darkness, start saying, "Peace and safety", that's when a sudden destruction will come upon them, which is to occur at Christ's coming. But those in Christ are not to be in darkness, that that day of Christ's return would overtake us as a thief.
Paul just gave 2 major signs for Christ's coming there:
1) on the "day of The Lord"
2) during a time when the deceived will declare, "Peace and safety"
Not all who accept the scriptural authenticity of a pre-trib rapture attempt to set a time of His return, my friend.
We can know what will take place before His return in the clouds, at the resurrection/rapture, and continue to wait and watch for that return.
God Bless you. Charlie
If you want to discuss Scripture about the true time of Christ's return and our gathering to Him, then I'd be glad to respectfully take the challenge, because the pre-trib rapture doctrine is not Biblical.
And may God bless you too, in Christ Jesus.
Dear JD:
In the messages to the seven churches, the messages to the churches in Sardis and Philadelphia refer to a pre-trib rapture.
Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Being worthy ties in to the accounted worthy of Luke 20:35 and 21:36.
The hour of temptation refers to the tribulation period that will come upon all the world.
Do you need more?
God Bless you. Charlie
revturmoil
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None of this proves a pre-trib rapture or the removal from tribulation.
"I pray that thou shouldest not take them out of this world, but thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
tomwebster
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Being "kept from the hour of temptation" has nothing to do with an "rapture." The Assemblys of Sardis and Philadelphia are tempted because they know who the Antichrist is and find him to be an abomination. They are not tempted by him. You are watching to many movies, cb, Satan wants you to worship him not fear him.
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Guys... I have presented my thinking both in video (My you tube video on the subject) and a well constructed time-line...
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14071-the-pre-trib-rapture/
In which I have also did you a favor by not saying 'this is God's timeline' and threatening you with damnation for not accepting my views on the subject. Please do the same! If you have PowerPoint 2010 you can build you a presentation, save it as a .wmv video, and then upload it to YouTube... This way I can get the big picture of the thoughts you are trying to present!
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14071-the-pre-trib-rapture/
In which I have also did you a favor by not saying 'this is God's timeline' and threatening you with damnation for not accepting my views on the subject. Please do the same! If you have PowerPoint 2010 you can build you a presentation, save it as a .wmv video, and then upload it to YouTube... This way I can get the big picture of the thoughts you are trying to present!
tomwebster
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The "gospel" according to rocky. I suggest everyone check us out in the Scripture. If the "churches" in rocky's "timeline" do not teach what the Assemblies in Rev 2 & 3 teach you have a problem. rock has a well-constructed time-line, but it's incorrect. Study it out for yourself. You don't need PowerPoint or YouTube, they do not make your studies correct, they just put you on record as being the kind of teacher you are. And remember God will hold you accountable for what you teach.
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Webster... Please... Organize your thinking and present to us your thinking in a chronological format... Post us something in a format where we can analyze. As a history guy I have spent many years at the Virginia Tech library and have read my bible trough seven times. In all my studies I have never once heard the seven churches taught as assemblies. And I do hold myself accountable for my postings.
Your material is not organized and is hard to make sense of.
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