The Pre-Trib Rapture

[WPM]

1 Thess 4:15 Those that fight and reject the rapture are left behind!!!
The catching up of believers IS the rapture.
15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord. 17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth """will be caught up""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. 18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.===Caught up IS the rapture. After the years of the great tribulation Jesus will return to earth and bring the raptured believers with Him and defeat all evil and set up His eternal kingdom here on earth and God will have His home here for all eternity!. PTL

1 Thessalonians 4 does not prove Pretrib. All it proves is that there is a catching away of the saints when Jesus comes. We both agree that there is a catching away in 1 Thessalonians 4. That is not the issue. But you force a 7-years trib into it and a 3rd coming that does not exist in the text.

So:

There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

What we do have in the text is "sudden destruction" accompanying Christ's return from which no one survives. This support Amillenialism and forbids both Pretrib and Premil.

 

[Truth7t7]

1 Thess 4:15 Those that fight and reject the rapture are left behind!!!
The catching up of believers IS the rapture.
15 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: that we who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord. 17 Then we who are still alive and remain on the earth """will be caught up""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. 18 So comfort and encourage each other with this news.===Caught up IS the rapture. After the years of the great tribulation Jesus will return to earth and bring the raptured believers with Him and defeat all evil and set up His eternal kingdom here on earth and God will have His home here for all eternity!. PTL

Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) Science Fiction

 

[WPM]

Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) Science Fiction

I agree! The reason they cannot answer simple questions is because it is simply not there in Scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree! The reason they cannot answer simple questions is because it is simply not there in Scripture.

Yes a pre-trib rapture is the teachings of John N. Darby and the Plymouth Brethren 1830's

This false teaching was made popular by the 1909 C.I. Scofield reference Bible that maintained Darby's teachings in cross reference in the margins, with millions of copies being sold around the world

C.I. Scofield was the mentor of Lewis S. Chafer who was founder of "Dallas Theological Seminary" Chafer started this seminary as a Bible course in Scofield's Dallas church, this is the basic foundation of dispensationalism, and the spread of the false teaching in a pre-trib rapture

Notable Alumni Dallas Theological Seminary:

Hal Lindsey, J. Vernon McGee, Chuck Swindoll, Tim LA Haye, David Jeremiah, Thomas Ice, Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges, to mention a few

 

[Timtofly]

I agree! The reason they cannot answer simple questions is because it is simply not there in Scripture.

I agree your simple questions are not in Scripture. No need to even answer them.

 

[The Light]

We Disagree,

You have been clearly shown that Jesus will return a 2nd time in fire and final Judgement, there isn't 3 comings of Jesus Christ as you repeatedly claim

Try common sense. You claim to know the timeframe of Jesus coming. Jesus tells you when He will come. But what Jesus tells you is He is coming at the 6th seal. Yes He comes at the end of the trumpets also. He also says He is coming when you think not. I gotta go with Jesus on this one.

 

[Truth7t7]

Try common sense. You claim to know the timeframe of Jesus coming. Jesus tells you when He will come. But what Jesus tells you is He is coming at the 6th seal. Yes He comes at the end of the trumpets also. He also says He is coming when you think not. I gotta go with Jesus on this one.

Sorry, there is one future coming of Jesus Christ, it will be at the 7th and last Trump (The End)

 

[The Light]

Sorry, there is one future coming of Jesus Christ, it will be at the 7th and last Trump (The End)

Always a blind eye to the truth of scripture. The Word says the gathering is before the Day of the Lord. (The End of the age)

 

[WPM]

Always a blind eye to the truth of scripture. The Word says the gathering is before the Day of the Lord. (The End of the age)

Where does it say that exactly in Scripture?

 

[Truth7t7]

Always a blind eye to the truth of scripture. The Word says the gathering is before the Day of the Lord. (The End of the age)

You Mean A Discerning Eye To Your Opinion Of Scripture, Yes I Disagree With Your Opinion

The gathering is on the day of the Lord, this being the second coming (The End)

 

[Truth7t7]

Where does it say that exactly in Scripture?

It dosent

 

[The Light]

Where does it say that exactly in Scripture?

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[WPM]

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yes. All the redeemed are rescued just before all the wicked are destroyed. That all occurs on the same last day. He's noticed that the destruction is sudden destruction. None shall escape. There is no delay.

 

[Truth7t7]

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You use the "Second Coming" seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and pretend it represents a pre-trib rapture "Wrong"

Your "Thief In The Night" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is (The End) when this earth is dissolved by fire, you don't want to acknowledge the whole of scripture because it destroys your claims

1 Thessalonians 5:2KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[The Light]

You Mean A Discerning Eye To Your Opinion Of Scripture, Yes I Disagree With Your Opinion

The gathering is on the day of the Lord, this being the second coming (The End)

Yeah, I see how discerning you are.

Can you discern that the gathering is before the wrath of God? Because the Word says that the believer is not appointed to wrath, but you have the Church going through the wrath of God.

You use the "Second Coming" seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and pretend it represents a pre-trib rapture "Wrong"

Your "Thief In The Night" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is (The End) when this earth is dissolved by fire, you don't want to acknowledge the whole of scripture because it destroys your claims

1 Thessalonians 5:2KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Hold those horses Sitting Bull. Nowhere have I said that 1 Thes 5 represents a pretrib rapture. It represents the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE wrath, at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Here's another view of the coming of Jesus at the 6th BEFORE wrath.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hold those horses Sitting Bull. Nowhere have I said that 1 Thes 5 represents a pretrib rapture. It represents the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE wrath, at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Here's another view of the coming of Jesus at the 6th BEFORE wrath.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

You use the "Second Coming" seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and pretend it represents a "Pre-Wrath" rapture "Wrong"

Your "Thief In The Night" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is (The End) when this earth is dissolved by fire, you don't want to acknowledge the whole of scripture because it destroys your claims

(The Last Day, The End)

1 Thessalonians 5:2KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[The Light]

You use the "Second Coming" seen in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and pretend it represents a "Pre-Wrath" rapture "Wrong"

Your "Thief In The Night" in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is (The End) when this earth is dissolved by fire, you don't want to acknowledge the whole of scripture because it destroys your claims

(The Last Day, The End)



1 Thessalonians 5:2KJV
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

How is it every time we are warned about being ignorant to the Word it falls in your wheelhouse? Maybe you should read all of the chapter.
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you just pretend this isn't in scripture?

Rev 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I can only post the scriptures; I can't help your blindness or unwillingness to accept the written Word of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you just pretend this isn't in scripture?

Rev 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I can only post the scriptures; I can't help your blindness or unwillingness to accept the written Word of God.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

How is it every time we are warned about being ignorant to the Word it falls in your wheelhouse? Maybe you should read all of the chapter.
2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you just pretend this isn't in scripture?

Rev 20
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I can only post the scriptures; I can't help your blindness or unwillingness to accept the written Word of God.

Your direct personal attacks against me show your signs of weakness and despair, because you are wrong in your eschatology

 

[The Light]

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Let me try this.

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So the day of the Lord is not a literal day. It could be a day, but literally a literal day would encompass a full 24 hours. Therefore there is not literal proof that a literal day of the Lord, is literally a day.

As for the heavens passing away, there will be no more heaven so when they say heaven on earth, that literally means that heaven is on earth. But in all the fire and fervent heat the earth burns up. However, we that are sealed with the seal of protection and now with no earth we drift into space. And space is the last frontier.

Nope. I'm not in your league. You are better at making things up than I am.