The Pre-Trib Rapture

[ewq1938]

You are exactly wrong.

No I'm not. The entire length of the tribulation is given in Revelation as 42 months. The tribulation is not years before it nor after it.

 

[ewq1938]

and the war against the saints hasn’t started yet.

War against the saints IS THE TRIBULATION. If there is no war against them there is no tribulation. You just proved yourself wrong. The antichrist and his kingdom cannot exist without also warring against the saints because that war is the ONLY purpose for the Great Tribulation. The end of Revelation 12 and all of Revelation 13 proves this. There is no gap of no war for years when the antichrist is here. The war starts immediately when he is here.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The first half is called simply THE tribulation, because though the antichrist is on the scene and consolidating his rule over the world, there is no mark being given, and the war against the saints hasn’t started yet.

It’s not two tribulations, it’s one 7 year tribulation, one full week of Daniels 70th week that has a demarcation line at the middle, which is when Satan is cast down to the earth out of the lowest heaven, in Revelation 12, possesses the beast we call the antichrist, who has been killed and rises from the dead full of satanic power, and kills the two witnesses who’ve prophesied for 1260 days (3.5 years), makes war on the saints and overcomes them, then gives the mark for 42 months (3.5 years).

Revelation 12 is the mid trib abomination of desolation event that occurs in the middle of Daniels 70th week, and therefore is the middle of the tribulation, where Israel flees into the desert, as Jesus warned to do, where they are kept safe for 1260 days, which is 3.5 years, during the last half of the 7 years.

It is when Satan is cast out of heaven and possesses the beast we call the antichrist that the really evil stuff happens.

Just some questions that havent been answered. I'd like to hear them from "Curtis" alone. I won't respond to others answering for him.
1. Where in the bible is the 1st half ever called the tribulation?
2. Where does the bible ever state that a tribulation last 7 full years?
3. Where does the bible say Satan possess the man of sin?
4. What beast is the man of sin?
5. Where does the bible say a man of sin will rise from the dead?
6. Where does the bible say the man of sin kills the 2 witnesses and not some other group?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wrong. There is only one last period of tribulation. The entire thing is called the Great Tribulation and it is only 42 months. The years leading up to it are not a tribulation.

What you call the "Great Tribulation", I would call "The Day of the Lord."

 

[ewq1938]

What you call the "Great Tribulation", I would call "The Day of the Lord."

You would be clearly wrong. The Great Tribulation is when God allows satan to harm the church. "The day of the Lord" are special days when the Lord does something notable. Nice to see you again tho :)

 

[CadyandZoe]

You would be clearly wrong. The Great Tribulation is when God allows satan to harm the church. "The day of the Lord" are special days when the Lord does something notable. Nice to see you again tho :)

Can you point me to a verse which makes you point?

Thanks

 

[marks]

You have made clear your position. I and others disagree with you. There’s nothing else to be said if you are not open, but closed up.

Ditto.

Much love!

 

[marks]

you’re arguing with me

I've been thinking of this differently. We should not argue.

Much love!

 

[marks]

because I used the word theories and yes, we should just follow God’s word.

When you write, "locked into a theory", what do you mean? Isn't that specific language chosen for a reason?

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

What you call the "Great Tribulation", I would call "The Day of the Lord."

The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming and the whole 1,000 year reign of Messiah the Prince.

The Great Tribulation is the final harvest when the angels come to earth. Matthew 13.

If any souls are left to harvest after the final harvest, then Satan may get 42 months. This is to gather in the gleanings. The gleanings are those beheaded to avoid receiving the mark of the beast.

The church is harvested first. That is the rapture at the Second Coming. The sheep and goats, Israel is harvested next. The wheat and tares are harvested last. Then if there are any souls left to harvest, those will be the ones beheaded.

Those here after the Second Coming are not part of the glorified church in Paradise. They are the firstfruits of the 1,000 year Day of the Lord reign of Christ the Prince.

The first coming had firstfruits out of the OT economy who would grow the NT church, called the fulness of the Gentiles. That is a harvesting term. The full harvest of the Gentiles has been the last 1992 years. Yet the OT saints were taken out of Abraham’s bosom and allowed to enter Paradise. Now at the Second Coming the whole church in Paradise is glorified. Yet there are firstfruits of a 1,000 year reign during a second earthly ministry, called the final harvest, the GT.

It is the greatest trouble known to man, because all have to physically die. All have to face the fact they are either going to have eternal life, or eternal damnation. Life on earth for Adam's flesh and blood has come to an end. No one will carry on the corruptible sinful flesh past this point in time. The 1,000 year reign is sin free, and Satan free. All who start out in the new heavens and earth after the GT will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. No one is stuck in Adam's corruptible flesh and blood. The heavens and earth are new, because the cleansing fire of the Second Coming destroyed all the sinful works of sinful man.

From God's perspective it is a wonderful event, the end of sin. From mankind's perspective it is terrible, because no one will be able to enjoy sin any longer. Many have grown comfortable in Adam's fallen flesh. Usually at the expense of the majority who find the bondage of sin a life of drudgery.

 

[marks]

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

To be literally fulfilled?

Pre-tribbers that I know say yes, this will be literally fulfilled.

Ezekiel 36:24-38 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Jeremiah 31:33-37 KJV
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Literally true?

Absolutely!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

1. Where in the bible is the 1st half ever called the tribulation?

Where is the second half ever called the tribulation?

It's not.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Day of the Lord is the Second Coming and the whole 1,000 year reign of Messiah the Prince.

The prophets say that the Day of the Lord is darkness, destruction, gloom etc. This hardly describes the second coming does it? Also, Jesus says that he returns after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31

 

[ewq1938]

Can you point me to a verse which makes you point?

Thanks

Which point?

 

[ewq1938]

The prophets say that the Day of the Lord is darkness, destruction, gloom etc. This hardly describes the second coming does it? Also, Jesus says that he returns after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31

You seem to have missed the darkness mentioned right there.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You seem to have missed the darkness mentioned right there.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

That's my point. The darkening of the sun, moon and etc. comes AFTER the tribulation. Matthew 24:29 very briefly outlines the Day of the Lord, which is not the Second Advent but a series of events that lead up to the Second Advent. Verse 24:29 is not the Great Tribulation but the Day of the Lord. IMHO

I used to think that the end of verse 30 was the second Advent, but now I think the Second Advent is when Jesus returns to earth to defeat the beast at Armageddon and take his rightful place in Jerusalem as King. Matthew 24:30 predicts the "son of man" event as described in Daniel 7. This is the sign that Israel will see in the clouds of heaven. It's also the moment when his church will meet him in the air.

Someone here suggested that the GT is 42 months long. The GT started the day Herod began to persecute the followers of Jesus (Acts 12:1) and it has continued even to this day. The GT is almost 2000 years running.

In my view, the DOL is 42 months long. In the Gospels, Jesus refers to "The Day of the Lord" as "The coming of the son of Man." At the beginning of the 42 month period, those living in Israel will be called to come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance and salvation. The book of Revelation, I believe, Refers to this as the blowing of the shofar or the trumpets. Those who heed the calling and come to Jerusalem will be spared. Those who stay home will die. Thus, Jesus warns his people not to stay home but to leave home in haste, not going back into the house to get anything.

In my "Days of the son of man" video, I call this "episode 3", which is unlike "episode 1" in that episode 1 involves an escape from Jerusalem. Jesus says that those living in Jerusalem should flee to the mountains of Judea. Episode 3, which is still in our future, involves an escape back to Jerusalem where God will protect those who came to call upon the name of the Lord.

Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted to answer your question. :) Good to see you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Which point?

I don't know now. Perhaps I misunderstood. I went back to review your post and frankly I agree with what you said there. But I am confused as to why you disagreed with me. Why did you say I was wrong? Can you clarify?

(I need more coffee! :) )

 

[Timtofly]

The prophets say that the Day of the Lord is darkness, destruction, gloom etc. This hardly describes the second coming does it? Also, Jesus says that he returns after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31

It does if you are on the wrong receiving end of God's wrath. Sorrow last for the night, but joy comes in the morning. The doom and gloom is the end of sin, and most humans want to hold on to their sin tight. The tighter the hold, the more doom and gloom there is.

It has been 1992 years of tribulation. It is after all that. Your tribulation is short, just like your day of the Lord. No, the tribulation has been for the last 1992 years, and the next 1,000 years is the blessed reign of Christ the Prince on earth, the Day of the Lord. Not the last 6 days of sin and death.

Besides the time of the greatest tribulation keeps getting shorter and shorter. We are pretty deep into that night of sorrows. Time runs out at day break. But the last few hours of darkness will bring Christ to earth, to save Jerusalem and finish the final harvest. Then if there are souls left, Satan may get 42 months in charge of the Vinyard. But Christ is already here before that.

 

[Davy]

Where is the second half ever called the tribulation?

It's not.

Much love!

The "great tribulation" actually is pointed to as the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years). It is with the Matthew 24:15 verse about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" event that Jesus quoted from Daniel.

These verses are when Jesus pointed to the time of "great tribulation", beginning with the AOD:

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Per Daniel 9:27, we know the ending of sacrifices in Jerusalem and placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple instead, represents the middle of the "one week". That "one week" symbolically represents a period of 7 years. The mid point of that period is when the AOD is setup. So Matthew 24:15 above represents that mid point and start of the latter half of the "one week".

 

[marks]

The "great tribulation" actually is pointed to as the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 "one week" (7 years). It is with the Matthew 24:15 verse about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" event that Jesus quoted from Daniel.

These verses are when Jesus pointed to the time of "great tribulation", beginning with the AOD:

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Per Daniel 9:27, we know the ending of sacrifices in Jerusalem and placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple instead, represents the middle of the "one week". That "one week" symbolically represents a period of 7 years. The mid point of that period is when the AOD is setup. So Matthew 24:15 above represents that mid point and start of the latter half of the "one week".

I see this the same way.

I merely wanted to point out that there is not a time period in the Bible that is called "the tribulation", as if there was only one. But there IS the time that Jesus characterized that there would be great tribulation, greater than any other.

The criticism was that there isn't a seven year time called the tribulation, I point out there isn't any period called that, only characterized as that, and we should pay attention to details.

Much love!