The problem with the thousand years?

[Marty fox]

John 3:16 can never fail. What is a fail if any human at any time rejects God's gift. Humans refusing Salvation does not negate John 3:16. The mark is just physical proof of this rejection.

At that point, if an angel carrying a tattoo gun or a sword, walks up to someone, the sword is the gift of God, in love, but the result is having one's head chopped off. There will be a resurrection, but that is still a decision of faith. Most making that decision will probably have never heard, nor read the part in Revelation about a resurrection.

Ofcourse John 3:16 can never fail that’s my point

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 20:5 says that they come back to life at the great white throne but satan is released before that in verse 7 thus the binding ends before the reigning

It does not guarantee they return to life. It states they cannot until the 1000 years are finished.

What binding ends before the reigning? The GWT is not the first resurrection. John is contrasting those remaining in death to those who just had a first resurrection.

Notice this translation:


"They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection."

The first resurrection applies to all who come to life. A resurrection is not (not coming to life).

Those in verse 4 came to life, the first resurrection. 1000 years later the dead remain dead, not a resurrection.

John did not state an assured resurrection. He said they did not live again, that implies after 1000 years they still would not live again. After the 1000 years, they "may" have a chance. Do you think God will let those at the GWT, have everlasting life and escape the Lake of Fire?

If that was a fact, John could have said, "At the end of the 1000 years, the rest of the dead will certainly live again, and enjoy the first resurrection. That is not the thought John gave. Saying the rest of the dead did not live again after the 1000 years is not very hopeful, even if he used the word "until".

When we do get to the verses on the GWT, John still does not say they lived again. It says the dead stood before God, and implies all were cast into the LOF. The Lake of Fire is the second death, not the first resurrection. The second death being the spirit now dead, joins the body, now dead, and the soul now dead. "Dead" being totally separated from God. The form of being dead even if a body, soul, and spirit are present and together as one being.

Many seem to just outright reject that a first resurrection is a new permanent body that cannot die. If those at the GWT are given a permanent body that cannot die, it is still a dead body because in the Lake of Fire God does not exist. God does not insert Himself into the Lake of Fire, like current creation God is even present in sheol. However having a permanent body, refutes total annihilation.

But if any live again, at the GWT, it is in the NHNE, and that is the resurrection John is pointing out. The first resurrection is to a permanent incorruptible physical body. That has to be the accepted definition. Otherwise no one will see the 1000 years properly. There can be no exceptions at any time in history. Otherwise people cherry pick and apply their made up definitions to the first resurrection.

When it comes to the GWT, can we just infer or imply any interpretation? We are not given enough facts to have any certainty of what happens other than two points: the second death, the dead stand there. After that all the dead are cast into the LOF. That is all we are told. The rest can only be speculation.

 

[Timtofly]

Same hour the great earthquake 2nd woe past, as the 3rd woe comes quickly in the 7th trump second coming (The End) Revelation 11:18 the (Final Judgement)

2nd woe has no earthquake.

"The first woe has passed, but there are still two woes to come. The sixth angel sounded his shofar, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the gold altar before God, saying to the sixth angel, the one with the shofar, “Release the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates!” And they were released. These four angels had been kept ready for this moment, for this day and month and year, to kill a third of mankind; and the number of cavalry soldiers was two hundred million! — I heard the number. Here is how the horses looked in the vision: the riders had breastplates that were fire-red, iris-blue and sulfur-yellow; the horses’ heads were like lions’ heads; and from their mouths issued fire, smoke and sulfur. It was these three plagues that killed a third of mankind — the fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from the horses’ mouths. For the power of the horses was in their mouths — and also in their tails, for their tails were like snakes with heads, and with them they could cause injury. The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they turn from their murdering, their involvement with the occult and with drugs, their sexual immorality or their stealing."

No earthquake found at all.

This is the second woe. The 5th Trumpet was the first woe. The 6th Trumpet was the second woe. The 7th Trumpet is the third woe.

Chapter 11 is split into two sections. The part about the 2 witnesses is not the second woe.

Between the 6th Trumpet and 7th Trumpet, there is a major interruption. Chapter 10 starts out with 7 Thunders coming after the 2nd woe. John is not allowed to include them in his writings. After the Thunders, the angel declares the conditions of the 7th Trumpet. These conditions finish in chapter 11 and 12. One condition is that during the 7th Trumpet there will be a temple. Another is that during the 7th Trumpet there will be two witnesses. The third condition of the 7th Trumpet picks up in the middle of Chapter 12. Michael faces Satan and his angels for the last time. This battle has to be during the 7th Trumpet. Because the 5th Trumpet unlocked those angels that are now being cast out in the 7th Trumpet, and that is the 3rd woe.

The 1st woe was the opening of the pit, and angels were released. 5th Trumpet.

The 2nd woe pertains to angels being released from the Euphrates River, resulting in another huge army against humanity. 6th Trumpet.

The 3rd woe is Satan and angels coming to earth, at the point they are allowed to take over Jerusalem and rule for 42 months. During the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27. A week of days, interrupted by 42 months of complete and utter desolation.

So the 2 witnesses are in the same 42 month period. The earthquake at their resurrection is the one in the 7th vial, Revelation 16:17-19

"The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!” There were flashes of lightning, voices and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake, such as has never occurred since mankind has been on earth, so violent was the earthquake. The great city was split into three parts."

This is the same hour the 2 witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. The 7 vials were poured out during the 3.5 days they lay in Jerusalem dead.

 

[Timtofly]

You must be quite the fella. You just canceled the reign of Christ for 1000 years. You are really influential. Lol

He canceled the 490 years in Daniel 9 as well, and places them in the future. A time "lord" of sorts?

 

[bbyrd009]

There is always a harvest.

is there?

The harvest by the angels is the final harvest.

you dont say

No more after this harvest.

"this" harvest? which, sorry
how do you know?

The harvest after the final harvest only has people choosing between taking the mark, or chopping their head off. It is a self harvest of one's head. One does not keep enjoying this life after that point. At least not until a resurrection happens for them. No where does it say the angels have left before that point.

imo "angels" is a way to anthropomorphize "spirits" anyway, but im mostly struck by how new guys are so attracted to the Revelation...and so determined to misunderstand the context; it is a trap, i think

 

[Truth7t7]

2nd woe has no earthquake.

"The first woe has passed, but there are still two woes to come. The sixth angel sounded his shofar, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the gold altar before God, saying to the sixth angel, the one with the shofar, “Release the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates!” And they were released. These four angels had been kept ready for this moment, for this day and month and year, to kill a third of mankind; and the number of cavalry soldiers was two hundred million! — I heard the number. Here is how the horses looked in the vision: the riders had breastplates that were fire-red, iris-blue and sulfur-yellow; the horses’ heads were like lions’ heads; and from their mouths issued fire, smoke and sulfur. It was these three plagues that killed a third of mankind — the fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from the horses’ mouths. For the power of the horses was in their mouths — and also in their tails, for their tails were like snakes with heads, and with them they could cause injury. The rest of mankind, those who were not killed by these plagues, even then did not turn from what they had made with their own hands — they did not stop worshipping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they turn from their murdering, their involvement with the occult and with drugs, their sexual immorality or their stealing."

No earthquake found at all.

This is the second woe. The 5th Trumpet was the first woe. The 6th Trumpet was the second woe. The 7th Trumpet is the third woe.

Chapter 11 is split into two sections. The part about the 2 witnesses is not the second woe.

Between the 6th Trumpet and 7th Trumpet, there is a major interruption. Chapter 10 starts out with 7 Thunders coming after the 2nd woe. John is not allowed to include them in his writings. After the Thunders, the angel declares the conditions of the 7th Trumpet. These conditions finish in chapter 11 and 12. One condition is that during the 7th Trumpet there will be a temple. Another is that during the 7th Trumpet there will be two witnesses. The third condition of the 7th Trumpet picks up in the middle of Chapter 12. Michael faces Satan and his angels for the last time. This battle has to be during the 7th Trumpet. Because the 5th Trumpet unlocked those angels that are now being cast out in the 7th Trumpet, and that is the 3rd woe.

The 1st woe was the opening of the pit, and angels were released. 5th Trumpet.

The 2nd woe pertains to angels being released from the Euphrates River, resulting in another huge army against humanity. 6th Trumpet.

The 3rd woe is Satan and angels coming to earth, at the point they are allowed to take over Jerusalem and rule for 42 months. During the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Daniel 9:27. A week of days, interrupted by 42 months of complete and utter desolation.

So the 2 witnesses are in the same 42 month period. The earthquake at their resurrection is the one in the 7th vial, Revelation 16:17-19

"The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!” There were flashes of lightning, voices and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake, such as has never occurred since mankind has been on earth, so violent was the earthquake. The great city was split into three parts."

This is the same hour the 2 witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven. The 7 vials were poured out during the 3.5 days they lay in Jerusalem dead.

Your claim is in error, the 2nd woe is the great earthquake, the 3rd woe is the 7th angel sounding

Pretty hard to take your response and eschatology serious, and this is just one example

Revelation 11:13-15KJV
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Timtofly]

You misrepresent my post, Satan is bound in Revelation 20:3 from "one specific purpose" and one only (Deceive The Nations) To The Final Battle, As Revelation 20:7-8 Interprets (Deceive The Nations) when satan is loosed

At no time do I claim satan is bound from this earth realm, and is currently restricted from present evil

Except Satan being locked away in a pit, means he is most certainly locked away in a pit. This is true literally and symbolically.

The emphasis is that upon release, he will decieve "the nations".

Are the nations decieved now, meaning they all acknowledge there is a God? How can there be atheist majority nations that claim there is no God. Is that not being decieved by Satan? No nation is declaring their outright disobedience to God to God's face. They do not even accept there is a God to go against. They are decieved.

 

[Timtofly]

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How do the dead not live through a non existence? Does this mean they were never dead, or will never have a chance because 1000 years does not exist.

You put it as if it reads: the rest of the dead never lived again, because there is no time in their existence, thus nothing to come back to nor come back from.

How can these people die, but the time is actually before they were dead? They were killed during this alledged little season, by Satan, at the end of the time they were already dead?

 

[Timtofly]

are you sure about that? Never heard it before, where did you get that from?

"and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death."

A separate condition from this ability:

"Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead."

 

[Timtofly]

Ofcourse John 3:16 can never fail that’s my point

Are you a universalist then?

All of humanity including the rebellion of the sons of God, and the rebellion of the angels will be as if they never happened?

Why is there a GWT and a lake of fire? John 3:16 still does not fail. It just cannot apply to those who reject John 3:16.

 

[Timtofly]

is there?

you dont say

"this" harvest? which, sorry
how do you know?

imo "angels" is a way to anthropomorphize "spirits" anyway, but im mostly struck by how new guys are so attracted to the Revelation...and so determined to misunderstand the context; it is a trap, i think

Or it's a trap to question God's Word?

The parables of Jesus and the OD point out the angels come to earth at the end of the world/age. That would be a final harvest, or last harvest. There are no more harvest after Revelation 19.

Do you think that Jesus had to indicate the angels because no one will see them. We just have to have faith, they are there?

How about the Second Coming removes all blindness, and all will see creation as one single physical and spiritual creation instead of only viewing the physical? If it is the end of something, why not this blindness? Are people blind in the after life and cannot see anything at all?

 

[Timtofly]

Your claim is in error, the 2nd woe is the great earthquake, the 3rd woe is the 7th angel sounding

Pretty hard to take your response and eschatology serious, and this is just one example

Revelation 11:13-15KJV
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So when it claims the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets are the 3 woes, you just blink and the fact goes away?

Why would 2 woes be Trumpets 5 and 7, but a third woe is something entirely different and after the other two woes or before, depending on the mood of day?

Can you not tell when John is changing his thoughts from one scene to another?

 

[Marty fox]

Are you a universalist then?

All of humanity including the rebellion of the sons of God, and the rebellion of the angels will be as if they never happened?

Why is there a GWT and a lake of fire? John 3:16 still does not fail. It just cannot apply to those who reject John 3:16.

I have no idea what you are talking about

John 3:16 says all who believe in Him

 

[bbyrd009]

"and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death."

A separate condition from this ability:

"Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead."

ah...but those are not satan?

Or it's a trap to question God's Word?

well, we surely differ on the definition of "God's Word" right now, too; i guess you mean "the Bible" right

but question! By all means!
test everything, and keep what’s good

what is manna, after all?

The parables of Jesus and the OD point out the angels come to earth at the end of the world/age. That would be a final harvest, or last harvest. There are no more harvest after Revelation 19.

ah ok
tbh i dont think so, as i would read the Rev in the context of "the revelation of Christ," but i could be off there too

Do you think that Jesus had to indicate the angels because no one will see them. We just have to have faith, they are there?

dunno, but John wrote the Rev, right?
and seems like spirits are still being personified?
but i guess im missing your point

How about the Second Coming removes all blindness, and all will see creation as one single physical and spiritual creation instead of only viewing the physical? If it is the end of something, why not this blindness? Are people blind in the after life and cannot see anything at all?

"afterlife?" as in literally? Idk, but i guess the dead know nothing right, which at least seems to indicate the literal dead

"all will see creation as one single physical and spiritual creation" is quite different, imo, from every eye will see Him. “All” surely suggests some…simultaneous realization? In the future, right?

that is the trap of the Rev imo

there’s a new crop coming out every week, seems to me anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

How about the Second Coming removes all blindness, and all will see creation as one single physical and spiritual creation instead of only viewing the physical?

ok just dont be surprised if it turns out to be an individual now thing, rather than some en masse tomorrow deal?

“Buried with Him in death; raised to new life in Him”
which is a terrible use of common pronouns imo but whatev

 

[bbyrd009]

"and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death."

A separate condition from this ability:

"Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead."

you might consider how this might apply to us, today
right down to the future shangri-la thing and everything

 

[marks]

Are you saying that Jesus could not prove it was possible to leave reality and return?

No, I was referring to,

GOD just is a being without a spiritual nor physical attribute,

You are claiming to know the attributes of God from an eternal perspective, or something like that. Like I said, interesting, but I don't know how you would prove the validity of your comment.

As for who knows what's happening where, I can't think of more than one reason why you'd go off on that track.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

He canceled the 490 years in Daniel 9 as well, and places them in the future. A time "lord" of sorts?

You have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yep. Truth 7t7 really was on a roll with that false accusation. Now a clown has decided to pick up where that left off and start another whole ridiculous "debate" about nothing.

The circus must go on.

uh oh…I get the feeling I might be the clown…oogah oogah…

 

[Zao is life]

uh oh…I get the feeling I might be the clown…oogah oogah…

Congratulations. Would you like a Noddy Badge or an ice cream?