The Problem With The Trinity

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FHII

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Simply that our perception of the nature of God is also burdened by the limited capacity of human language. It is impossible to describe linguistically that which the mind cannot conceive or comprehend. Since God exists on a plane that is not accessible to man at the sensory level, we have no experiential index by which to explain the nature of God. Our only context for understanding the nature of God is the reveled language of scripture.

Sure, and the scripure say God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ. The disciples asked him to show us the Father. Jesus said when you see me you see the Father.

Looking at His life and hearing his word (and those of his chosen apostles) is as close as we can get to understanding God's devine nature. But that is enough.
 

oldhermit

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Sure, and the scripure say God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ. The disciples asked him to show us the Father. Jesus said when you see me you see the Father.

Looking at His life and hearing his word (and those of his chosen apostles) is as close as we can get to understanding God's devine nature. But that is enough.
Did you ever wonder why all of creation functions strictly on a triadic structure?
 

oldhermit

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Do you understand what I mean by triadic function?
 

oldhermit

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By the way, can you tell me how to change my name on this site? I prefer not to be known simply as a "John Doe."
 

FHII

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Do you understand what I mean by triadic function?
Yes I do. But simply because that mathematical phenomena exists doesn't mean there is a trinity.
 

oldhermit

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Yes I do. But simply because that mathematical phenomena exists doesn't mean there is a trinity.
I am not talking about triadic as it applies to the field of mathematics. I am talking about how we perceive reality. Do you understand what I mean when I say that everything in creation functions triadically?
 

FHII

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I am not talking about triadic as it applies to the field of mathematics. I am talking about how we perceive reality. Do you understand what I mean when I say that everything in creation functions triadically?
Guess not.
 

Helen

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Simply that our perception of the nature of God is also burdened by the limited capacity of human language. It is impossible to describe linguistically that which the mind cannot conceive or comprehend. Since God exists on a plane that is not accessible to man at the sensory level, we have no experiential index by which to explain the nature of God. Our only context for understanding the nature of God is the reveled language of scripture.

That is why The Father sent the Son...to reflect His nature, and heart to mankind...so that we COULD "see Him" and all that He is and stands for... Jesus said " If you have seen ME, you have SEEN the Father. " Jesus Christ is the full expression of God.
He is all we need to know while on this planet....and as we "wait upon Him", He reveals a deeper depths of Himself to us.
If our human minds were supposed to understand the full workings of God ...He would not have sent the Holy Spirit...by whom, we can enter into the Holy places of God, through Him. In prayer, worship and thanksgiving.

That is how I see it...anyway.
 

oldhermit

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Guess not.
Everything in creation functions strictly on the foundation of triadic interaction. This is important because this is also how scripture as a whole represents the nature of God. We can only interact with creation triadically and scripture show us that we can only interact with God in the same way. I know you may not accept this at this point but please bear with me. When we look at a tree, we can only do so on the basis of triadic function. There are three points of valance. There is the tree that exists in the world of objects, the image that is projected into the brain, and the cognitive observer. We know that the tree is real because light rays projected off the object create an exact image of that object in our sensorium. This icon is then projected onto the cerebral cortex and interpreted by the brain. We then link that abstraction in the brain to the object. This is an example of triadic function. All of creation functions on this principle, you cannot escape it. This is not by accident. The nature of God is the foundation for this structure. We always see God represented in scripture as functioning triadically.
 
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FHII

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Everything in creation functions strictly on the foundation of triadic interaction. This is important because this is also how scripture as a whole represents the nature of God. We can only interact with creation triadically and scripture show us that we can only interact with God in the same way. I know you may not accept this at this point but please bear with me. When we look at a tree, we can only do so on the basis of triadic function. There are three points of valance. There is the tree that exists in the world of objects, the image that is projected into the brain, and the cognitive observer. We know that the tree is real because light rays projected off the object create an exact image of that object in our sensorium. This icon is then projected onto the cerebral cortex and interpreted by the brain. We then link that abstraction in the brain to the object. This is an example of triadic function. All of creation functions on this principle, you cannot escape it. This is not by accident. The nature of God is the foundation for this structure. We always see God represented in scripture as functioning triadically.



That doesn't prove the trinity.
 

lforrest

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Everything in creation functions strictly on the foundation of triadic interaction. This is important because this is also how scripture as a whole represents the nature of God. We can only interact with creation triadically and scripture show us that we can only interact with God in the same way. I know you may not accept this at this point but please bear with me. When we look at a tree, we can only do so on the basis of triadic function. There are three points of valance. There is the tree that exists in the world of objects, the image that is projected into the brain, and the cognitive observer. We know that the tree is real because light rays projected off the object create an exact image of that object in our sensorium. This icon is then projected onto the cerebral cortex and interpreted by the brain. We then link that abstraction in the brain to the object. This is an example of triadic function. All of creation functions on this principle, you cannot escape it. This is not by accident. The nature of God is the foundation for this structure. We always see God represented in scripture as functioning triadically.

I was just thinking about the three sections of the temple the other day, and how it reflects the body, soul, spirit. Angelina had a good study on that a while back.
 
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oldhermit

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That doesn't prove the trinity.
Not in and of itself but we are not through yet. The most basic issue with defining the nature of God in terms that the human mind can grasp is that of linguistic valence. Linguistic valence refers to the definitions that we attach to words in order to connect language to an idea. The problem that shows up in defining the nature of God is that we connect definitions to human language to help us create a picture of God with which we are comfortable. I offer the following well-known definition as an example.

God is one single unified essence. Yet, within this single unified essence of God are three separate and distinct persons of deity who are one God, each member having his part in the creation and redemption of man” (unknown source).

Now, I am not at all sure when or where this definition of God originated, but it is one that I have heard from a number of different sources over the years. While this definition may represent a not altogether invalid understand of the triadic unity it does present three immediate problems.

1. The definition itself; Man is not prone to accept anything on faith. Man feels that he must be able to define, explain, and classify a thing before he will accept it. This of course, becomes problematic when we think in terms of the nature of God. It is impossible to reduce God to a linguistic formula.
2. The use of the word ‘unified’. We can only comprehend unity as we see it within the confines of our own human experience, not as it applies to God.
3. The use of the word ‘essence’: The word essence is a good enough word I suppose. I am hard pressed to find a better one, but the way in which we have used this word in relationship to God does not seem to fit the profile of God in scripture. Strictly speaking, essence is that which makes a thing what it is. It is the inward nature of a thing underlying its manifestations. Essence refers to the characteristics and relations of a thing.

In his book THE TIMELESS TRINITY, Roy Lanier Jr. assigns this definition to the triadic unity. “God is one ‘being’ consisting of three persons, one essence, one ‘being’; an undivided essence.”

The use of the term 'God' in scripture does not seem to describe a single being as expressed by Mr. Lanier, but a single collective of three beings. Not one being made up of three parts but three beings united in one nature. The word God itself describes a perfect ontological state or quality of existence. God is not who he is, but what he is. Who he is, is Jehovah. What he is should be understood as an anthology of perfect attributes represented in three divine representatives.

God has never given us anything by which we could formulate a picture of him as a spiritual being outside of his intrinsic attributes. What he has given us defines certain aspects of his nature, character, and function. When we talk about the nature of anything, it must be understood bi-camerally. The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts. The first part is essence. Essence refers to those qualities that make a thing what it is. Take for example a flower. The essence of any flower is those traits that classify it as a flower. A flower is a seed producing plant consisting of four sets of organs - carpels, stamens, petals, and sepals. These traits typically classify the object as a flower. The second part is character. Each flower has its own distinguishing characteristics that define it still further. These characteristics separate it from all other flowers and give it individuality. These would be such traits as structure, type, shape, color, fragrance, type of fruit, and the type of climate and soil it requires. These are all qualities that define what kind of flower it is. Now, if we may be permitted to assign this definition to the nature of God, then the essence of God would be those qualities that make God, God. The extended properties of God would be those qualities that describe what kind of God he is. You may prefer to think of them as primary and secondary attributes.

The ‘essence’ of God defines the intrinsic qualities of God such as, spirit, ever-present, immortal, holy, eternal, self-existing, all-powerful, invisible, self-sustaining, all-knowing and transcendent. These do not constitute a substance or some type of spiritual equivalent to material form. They represent a quality of existence. This quality of existence is further amplified by what may be regarded as extended attributes that describe what kind of God this is. This would include such attributes as holy, good, faithful, patient, righteous, honest, loving, just, fair, forgiving, pure, vengeful, consistent, and merciful. Both the intrinsic qualities and the extended properties are elements of all three divine representatives. While each member seems to constitute some type of spiritual substance, the singularity of the three exists not only in the quality of existence but also in the attributes of their character, not in substance. We can never find a passage that relegates the term God to substance except within the framework of each individual member.
 

oldhermit

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I was just thinking about the three sections of the temple the other day, and how it reflects the body, soul, spirit. Angelina had a good study on that a while back.
I really do not think that was the intent of the design but then again, I have not exactly thought of it quite like that.

By the way, is there any way I can enter a name onto my profile so I don't have to go by John Doe?
 

ScottA

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Would you agree that a discontinuity exists between the reality of God and man's perception of God that is compounded by the limitations of both the human mind and the human use of language?
This is all a matter of context. God is God, and is One.

The fact that the human mind does struggle with it is apparent. And yet, it is foolishness. I am a father, a son, and a man of my work...each known to be distinct - but I too am one. So, is a man who says there is no trinity unemployed and fatherless because he is only one man? Only a fool looks at a man and sees only a man.
 
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FHII

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Not in and of itself but we are not through yet. The most basic issue with defining the nature of God in terms that the human mind can grasp is that of linguistic valence. Linguistic valence refers to the definitions that we attach to words in order to connect language to an idea. The problem that shows up in defining the nature of God is that we connect definitions to human language to help us create a picture of God with which we are comfortable. I offer the following well-known definition as an example.

God is one single unified essence. Yet, within this single unified essence of God are three separate and distinct persons of deity who are one God, each member having his part in the creation and redemption of man” (unknown source).

Now, I am not at all sure when or where this definition of God originated, but it is one that I have heard from a number of different sources over the years. While this definition may represent a not altogether invalid understand of the triadic unity it does present three immediate problems.

1. The definition itself; Man is not prone to accept anything on faith. Man feels that he must be able to define, explain, and classify a thing before he will accept it. This of course, becomes problematic when we think in terms of the nature of God. It is impossible to reduce God to a linguistic formula.
2. The use of the word ‘unified’. We can only comprehend unity as we see it within the confines of our own human experience, not as it applies to God.
3. The use of the word ‘essence’: The word essence is a good enough word I suppose. I am hard pressed to find a better one, but the way in which we have used this word in relationship to God does not seem to fit the profile of God in scripture. Strictly speaking, essence is that which makes a thing what it is. It is the inward nature of a thing underlying its manifestations. Essence refers to the characteristics and relations of a thing.

In his book THE TIMELESS TRINITY, Roy Lanier Jr. assigns this definition to the triadic unity. “God is one ‘being’ consisting of three persons, one essence, one ‘being’; an undivided essence.”

The use of the term 'God' in scripture does not seem to describe a single being as expressed by Mr. Lanier, but a single collective of three beings. Not one being made up of three parts but three beings united in one nature. The word God itself describes a perfect ontological state or quality of existence. God is not who he is, but what he is. Who he is, is Jehovah. What he is should be understood as an anthology of perfect attributes represented in three divine representatives.

God has never given us anything by which we could formulate a picture of him as a spiritual being outside of his intrinsic attributes. What he has given us defines certain aspects of his nature, character, and function. When we talk about the nature of anything, it must be understood bi-camerally. The nature of any object or person is always made up of two parts. The first part is essence. Essence refers to those qualities that make a thing what it is. Take for example a flower. The essence of any flower is those traits that classify it as a flower. A flower is a seed producing plant consisting of four sets of organs - carpels, stamens, petals, and sepals. These traits typically classify the object as a flower. The second part is character. Each flower has its own distinguishing characteristics that define it still further. These characteristics separate it from all other flowers and give it individuality. These would be such traits as structure, type, shape, color, fragrance, type of fruit, and the type of climate and soil it requires. These are all qualities that define what kind of flower it is. Now, if we may be permitted to assign this definition to the nature of God, then the essence of God would be those qualities that make God, God. The extended properties of God would be those qualities that describe what kind of God he is. You may prefer to think of them as primary and secondary attributes.

The ‘essence’ of God defines the intrinsic qualities of God such as, spirit, ever-present, immortal, holy, eternal, self-existing, all-powerful, invisible, self-sustaining, all-knowing and transcendent. These do not constitute a substance or some type of spiritual equivalent to material form. They represent a quality of existence. This quality of existence is further amplified by what may be regarded as extended attributes that describe what kind of God this is. This would include such attributes as holy, good, faithful, patient, righteous, honest, loving, just, fair, forgiving, pure, vengeful, consistent, and merciful. Both the intrinsic qualities and the extended properties are elements of all three divine representatives. While each member seems to constitute some type of spiritual substance, the singularity of the three exists not only in the quality of existence but also in the attributes of their character, not in substance. We can never find a passage that relegates the term God to substance except within the framework of each individual member.

I am not even going to pretend to understand that. I appreciate your effort and all... But the best I can conclude from your posts is that man doesn't understand God so he uses what he can understand to try to explain God. That does not mean he is accurate, its only the best he can do.

And that's exactly what I see the trinity theory being: something man has come up with to try to explain who God is.

As we previously discussed, God manifested himself in the flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus Christ is what God intends for us to see him as.
 
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FHII

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This is all a matter of context. God is God, and is One.

The fact that the human mind does struggle with it is apparent. And yet, it is foolishness. I am a father, a son, and a man of my work...each known to be distinct - but I too am one. So, is a man who says there is no trinity unemployed and fatherless because he is only one man? Only a fool looks at a man and sees only a man.

So are you three persons yet one man or are you one man who manifests himself in different modes?
 
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oldhermit

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I am not even going to pretend to understand that. I appreciate your effort and all... But the best I can conclude from your posts is that man doesn't understand God so he uses what he can understand to try to explain God. That does not mean he is accurate, its only the best he can do.

And that's exactly what I see the trinity theory being: something man has come up with to try to explain who God is.

As we previously discussed, God manifested himself in the flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus Christ is what God intends for us to see him as.
Do you believe God is limited by time and space?
 

FHII

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Do you believe God is limited by time and space?
I don't even think God is limited to this physical relm so why would I believe he is limited by time and space?
 
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