The Problem With The Trinity

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oldhermit

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I still see no reason to divide them up into 3 separate persons, especially since God for 4000+ years depicted himself as one and only one.

Jesus revealed himself as the son of man, the son of God and the son of David. He also appeared in the flesh, in glorified or ressurected flesh and as the Body of Christ--one body with many members. Is Jesus 3 separate persons?

The Holy Ghost is a comforter and the spirit of truth. He also was a bearer of gifts and even a revealer. He was also noted as being the one who got Mary pregnent. Is he 2, 3 or 4 separate persons?

I like you theory about triads, but I also see alot of spheres, circles and lines in nature. Yet can we liken God to them? I am sure we could.

John Doe spent time speaking philosophically about how man tends to create or relate things to fit his understanding. At least that's what I got from it as it was discussion over my head at this point. To stand up for myself I really don't have the time to dive into such TO understand it. But in what I do understand, I believe that is what happened with the birth of the trinity theory: man trying his best to come up with an explanation of something not of this world or dimension. I am not joining in.

Again, to staye my stance. I believe God manifested himself as Jesus, as the Holy Spirit and as a Father. Has he manifested himself otherwise? I believe so but that is a long, debatable subject.

Its pretty important to me that you folks understand my stance in that I do not deny each of those three. In my 15 years of debating this I have gotten myself in a lot of awkward situations ranging from trinitarians claiming I don't believe Jesus was God to the polar opposite, which is people who don't believe in Jesus rallying with me.

Once again... I believe in all three of those entities. I just reject that they were separate "persons". It was one entity manifesting himself in 3 different ways.
Are you willing to continue to follow me in this? There are a lot of things that I think you will find interesting.
BTW, I am John Doe, I just had my name put on the avatar.
 

oldhermit

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GOOD, now you asked is the Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit? I say yes, do you agree? yes or No
No, but we will get to that later. There is a lot to cover between here and there.
 

FHII

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Are you willing to continue to follow me in this? There are a lot of things that I think you will find interesting.
BTW, I am John Doe, I just had my name put on the avat
Are you willing to continue to follow me in this? There are a lot of things that I think you will find interesting.
BTW, I am John Doe, I just had my name put on the avatar.

I figured you were John Doe based on you writing style and the fact that you were tooking to change your handle. I just didn't want to make that assumption without full assurance.

I will indeed listen to what you have to say. So long as you listen to what I have to say.

As a side note, I don't mind the Socratic method of discussion as long as its used for enlightment instead of entrapment. Folks in these parts don't seem to understand the difference so I tend to grow wary of questions.
 

oldhermit

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I figured you were John Doe based on you writing style and the fact that you were tooking to change your handle. I just didn't want to make that assumption without full assurance.

I will indeed listen to what you have to say. So long as you listen to what I have to say.

As a side note, I don't mind the Socratic method of discussion as long as its used for enlightment instead of entrapment. Folks in these parts don't seem to understand the difference so I tend to grow wary of questions.
I promise you, I am not going to try to trap you. We both know where we stand on our respective positions. All I am trying to do is show you why I hold the position I do and perhaps get you to consider some points you may have never before considered.
 

FHII

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I promise you, I am not going to try to trap you. We both know where we stand on our respective positions. All I am trying to do is show you why I hold the position I do and perhaps get you to consider some points you may have never before considered.
Why don't you start by proclaiming you position?
 

101G

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No, but we will get to that later. There is a lot to cover between here and there.
I believe that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Ghost. John chapter 14 points this out clearly. I suggest you read verses 16-26.
 

oldhermit

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I believe that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Ghost. John chapter 14 points this out clearly. I suggest you read verses 16-26.
I was about to get into John 1. I think this may answer some of your questions.
 

oldhermit

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Why don't you start by proclaiming you position?
LOL. I thought that would have been obvious. I believe scripture represents God as three distinct persons who function in triadic harmony. I suppose now, the burden of proof is on me.
 

oldhermit

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Part One

In John’s prologue, it seems that the Holy Spirit is more interested in dealing with the function of the Second Position than with the question of the identity of the Word. This will also be my primary focus here. Although the identity of the Word is well established in the first two verses, it does not seem to be the primary focus.

The Logos of John’s prologue is not just some benign abstract of ideas or reason but is the personification of an eternal function of deity. The Logos functions as part of a linguistic triad who links the will of God to the mind of man. Man does not have the capacity to reach beyond the boundaries of the natural world and look into the unseen dimension of God. He must rely upon God to supply him with information. The Logos connects man to an unseen world that transcends the scope of human observation by functioning as the conduit for divine communication. What man will learn about God will come only through the function of the Logos. This is true not just in the incarnation of the Word, it is also true in every instance in scripture where God communicates directly with man. All of the Old Testament examples where ‘The Angle of Jehovah’ is in direct contact with man is always Second Position function. Even that which man learns of God from creation is the result of this second position function, which initially brought all mater into existence and placed within it the evidences of God, Psalms 19:1-4 and 97:6. The Logos is the avenue of communication between two parties across two dimensions. That which will be communicated is of course the will of God. The incarnation collapses the distance between the two worlds and brings man into direct contact with God in a very personal way. Man is now confronted face-to-face and in the flesh with this Logos. This is truly a remarkable event of human history.

The Logos is the source of enlightenment - something is lacking on the part of man; something is not understood. In order for man to expand his understanding of God, he must first be given access to the mind of God. The function of the Logos is to link the mind of man to the mind of God so that man might be able to think the way God thinks: to reason the way God reasons. (Bearing in mind of course, this is only after a limited fashion. After all, man is still a finite creature). What will be needed on the part of man is the realization that his thinking and reasoning processes are veiled in the darkness of intellectual blindness; not just about God, but about his own place within the eternal continuum, and even his relationship to the natural world of which he is a part. In verse 18, John says, “no man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.” The word ἑώρακεν, that is translated here as ‘seen’ in most of the English translations, is third person singular of ὁράω which, according to Thayer, has three basic definitions. First, it means to see with the eyes. Secondly, it means to see with the mind, to know, to perceive. Thirdly, it means to become acquainted with through pragmatic experience (The 1981 New Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon, p 451).

If John is arguing from the first definition, this needs to be understood in the light of pragmatic Old Testament examples. We know from the many examples of theophonic manifestations in the Old Testament that God has repeatedly presented himself to man in a number of ways. At times, God availed himself only to man’s auditory senses. He spoke to Adam, to Cain, to Noah, to the Hebrew patriarchs, to Moses, to the prophets, and to others. Sometimes he visited himself upon man in the form of dreams or visions as to the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah chapter six. Other times, he appears as objects such as the cloud or the pillar of fire that went before Israel in the wilderness. Still, there are other times when he visited man in human form. There are some eight accounts of this type of theophany found in the Old Testament.

The word ‘theophany’ is derived from two Greek words, Θεὸς meaning God and φωνὴ meaning sound or voice. A theophany then is a hearing of the voice of God. Theophonic experiences in scripture assume many forms, yet all seem to have a singular function. They communicate the will of God to man. They provide man with a point of reference that man can comprehend. In so doing, God is demonstrating compassion for the limitations of the human mind to understand things that are beyond his ability to grasp. In some theophonic experiences, God will accommodate only man’s sense of hearing. One only heard the voice of God. God speaking to Noah in Genesis 6 is just such an example. Another is Genesis 12 where God spoke to Abraham. Sometimes, these theophanies would be accompanied by some type of material phenomenon such as fire, wind, or earthquake as in the cases of Moses in Exodus 3, the nation of Israel in Exodus 13 and Elijah in 1Kings 19. Each of these accompanying natural phenomena would appeal to a broader range of physical senses as God sometimes chose to speak in these things. Still, at other times, God chose to assume an anthropomorphic form as in Genesis 18 when he appeared to Abraham in the company of two angels, all in human form. For further reference, one might examine these examples of anthropomorphic theophanies. What appears in each of these is the repeated phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” 22:15-18; 31:11-13; 48:15-16, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 6:11-24, and Judges 13:15-23.

In each example where the phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is used, God is represented as the messenger of Jehovah. The phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is only used to describe the spokesman of deity. This term is never applied to anyone else in scripture. He is always functioning as the spokesman of the divine triad. In each case, this is deity appearing in human form. In every example, those to whom The Angel of Jehovah appeared always understood, at some point, that he was God and they honored him as such. The Angel of Jehovah will always assume divine authority in each of these Old Testament exemplars. He will always be seen serving as the agent of communication, hence the term “The Angel of Jehovah.” He is angelic not in nature but in function. In nature, he is God. In function, he is the messenger in the triadic unity.

If ἑώρακεν is understood as an intellectual limitation, this would seem to fit better with the closing statement of this prologue. “He has explained him.” The Greek word ἐξηγήσατο is third person singular aorist first indicative meaning to detail, to set forth in language, to make known, or to reveal (George V. Wagram’s Analytical Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1983). This is the etymology of our word to ‘exegete’. In other words, “No man has understood or comprehended God at any time. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has EXPLAINED him.” The Logos presents God to the mind of man through the medium of human language in such a way that man is now able to understand something of the nature and character of God that he could never know from his observation of the natural world. Only the one who came out of the very presence of God could have done this.

In the 1980 printing of The Expositors Greek Testament on the gospel of John p 692, the expositor makes an interesting observation in contrast to Meyer. He says that ἐξηγήσατο refers to the “work” which Christ accomplished while he was on earth. This emphasizes a particular function of the Second Position. Having come from this eternal intimate relationship with the Father, he is thus “equipped” to translate the mind of God to the mind of man. The linking of these two minds is intended to create an isomorphic state of thinking. As we see in verses 10-12, this response on the part of man would be both positive and negative. As man begins the process of learning to think and reason as God, he will learn to re-symbolize his relationship both to God and to the natural world. He will have to learn to think differently, to speak differently, and to behave differently. Reality will take on a new definition. This would not be met favorably among the majority of humanity, not in that generation nor in this one.
 
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101G

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Part One

In John’s prologue, it seems that the Holy Spirit is more interested in dealing with the function of the Second Position than with the question of the identity of the Word. This will also be my primary focus here. Although the identity of the Word is well established in the first two verses, it does not seem to be the primary focus.
first thanks for the response. we will take this one step at a time, ok.
#1. John's prologue is speaking of the one TRUE God in flesh, the Holy Spirit himself. now you said, that it is dealing with the function of the second person, right. and that function is saviour of the world. now oldhermit, please tell us who is the SAVIOUR of the World. I suggest you read Isaiah 35:4 first, and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. and please take note of 43:11. so who is the saviour, and that will identify the first or the second person?. I'll be waiting for your answer.
 

oldhermit

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first thanks for the response. we will take this one step at a time, ok.
#1. John's prologue is speaking of the one TRUE God in flesh, the Holy Spirit himself. now you said, that it is dealing with the function of the second person, right. and that function is saviour of the world. now oldhermit, please tell us who is the SAVIOUR of the World. I suggest you read Isaiah 35:4 first, and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. and please take note of 43:11. so who is the saviour, and that will identify the first or the second person?. I'll be waiting for your answer.
I am quite familiar with each of these passages. We both know that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Later we will look at some passages that cearly separate Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Perhaps part two will help shed some light of the separation of Jesus and the Father.
 

101G

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I am quite familiar with each of these passages. We both know that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Later we will look at some passages that cearly separate Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Perhaps part two will help shed some light of the separation of Jesus and the Father.
Good, but if you don't mind can U address Isaiah 35:4 first, and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. as to who this is? thanks in advance.
 

oldhermit

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Good, but if you don't mind can U address Isaiah 35:4 first, and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. as to who this is? thanks in advance.
God is portrayed as the Savior in all of these. What we will later see is that the act of salvation is a Second Position function. This is the position which Jesus occupies.
 

101G

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God is portrayed as the Savior in all of these. What we will later see is that the act of salvation is a Second Position function. This is the position which Jesus occupies.
ERROR on your part. God is Generic. you said John is speaking of the function of the second person. now I ask is this the SECOND PERSON here in Isaiah or not. let me make it simple, is this the Father, or the Son in Isaiah 35:4 and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. remember there is ONLY "ONE" Saviour. so which person is this.

please answer, because this establish the base of our conversation. thanks in advance.
 

oldhermit

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ERROR on your part. God is Generic. you said John is speaking of the function of the second person. now I ask is this the SECOND PERSON here in Isaiah or not. let me make it simple, is this the Father, or the Son in Isaiah 35:4 and then Isa 45:21; Isa 49:26 and Isa 43:11. remember there is ONLY "ONE" Saviour. so which person is this.

please answer, because this establish the base of our conversation. thanks in advance.
You are looking for an either / or answer. Yes, you are quite correct. In each of these passages, God is generic. The truth is that all three members of the Triadic Unity have a specific function in connection with the creation and redemption of man. The Father is the source of the idea of human redemption, Ephesians 1:1-6. He is the planner. He chose us, he predestined us, he adopted us, and he blessed us, verses 3-6. Jesus is the active cause. As such, he makes human redemption a reality. He introduces redemption into the world of man, 7-12. He shed his blood, he forgave us, he bestowed his grace on us, he revealed the mystery of redemption to us. All things are summed up in him and he grants us an inheritance. The Holy Spirit is the linking agent or the organizer. He is the one who brings the redemption process to full measure. He fashions the redeemed into the divine ideal, 13-14. He sealed us as the possession of God and he stands as a seal or down payment of our inheritance. In 1Corinthians 12, the Spirit equips the Church so that she may become the full realization of the idea of God.
 

101G

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You are looking for an either / or answer. Yes, you are quite correct. In each of these passages, God is generic. The truth is that all three members of the Triadic Unity have a specific function in connection with the creation and redemption of man. The Father is the source of the idea of human redemption.
again you dodge my question, we'll get to Eph and cor. but here in Isaiah is this the Father or the son who is SAVIOUR, the only Saviour, please answer.
 

101G

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I see you can't answer, let's make it simple. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". I is a single person, this person says he's the savior. notice this is the LORD, ALL CAPS. now once more, is this the Father, all caps LORD yes or No?
 

oldhermit

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again you dodge my question, we'll get to Eph and cor. but here in Isaiah is this the Father or the son who is SAVIOUR, the only Saviour, please answer.
I am not dodging you question. The answer is YES.
1 Tim 1:1, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope."
Jude 1:25, "To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus
Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

Titus 3:6, "whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."
2 Peter 3:18, "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."