The Problem With The Trinity

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oldhermit

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I am going to go ahead and post the second part of the John 1 discussion for your consideration and then I am going to bed. It is midnight here.


CRITICAL LINGUISTIC ANALYSIS OF VERSE ONE


εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος . This is the most concise theological statement ever made and it is the way in which John arranges this given set of words in verse one that makes it so.

I. The use of the article in verse one.
It must be understood that with all language, there are rules of grammar that must be recognized and followed. If not, then communication become impossible. The following was given by a professor of New Testament Greek whose name I do not know. I have rewritten some of the arguments for the purpose of clarity and flow. Though a brilliant scholar, he was not particularly gifted as a writer. I have added some of my own comments and observations but the basic arguments of each point are his.

NT Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase so the absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal and doesn't mean anything. It is when we find examples such as John 1:1 were the article is included in a prepositional phrase that is unusual and should therefore grab our attention. It is the inclusion of the article that is significant. For example, the prepositional phrase “εν αρχη” (in the beginning) does not contain an article in the Greek, but is still properly translated "in the beginning." The prepositional phrase “προς τον θεον” (with God) however, does include the definite article (τον). Since it was proper NOT to include it, the inclusion here means something. Generally speaking, the inclusion of an article when one is not expected means the writer are being specific, in this case a particular individual who is God. In order to fully understand how that affects this verse, we need to go to the last clause.

To understand the implications of the last clause, one needs to understand Greek syntax. Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case. Generally, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative spelling. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative spelling. However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate. There are three verbs that do this in NT Greek. This means you have two nouns that are in the nominative case, where one is the subject, and one is the predicate nominative. So, if both are in the same case, how does one determine which is the subject, and which is the predicate? The rules are as follows.

A. If BOTH nouns have the article attached, then the first noun is the subject and the second noun is the predicate.
B. If NEITHER noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject and the second is the predicate.
C. If ONE noun has an article and the other does not, then the one with the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate. So, in the phrase “και θεος ην ο λογος” (and the Word was God), we see that λογος has an article (ὁ) and θεος does not. Thus “ὁ λογος” is the subject, while θεος is the predicate. “The Word was God.” θεος as the predicate, describes what the λογος is. Who he is, is the Word. What he is, is God. When translated into English, because λογος is the subject, we have to put it first, so this is properly translated “And the word was God.” There are three things this could mean depending on the construction. It could mean:

1. The word was a lesser god than the Father (τον θεον in the previous clause).
2. The word was the father.
3. The word was fully God, but was NOT the Father.
So, how do we determine which is the meaning of the clause?

B. Understanding the implications of this syntax.

1. If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην θεος, it would mean “the word was A god.” That is, the word was a lesser god than the father. The reason is that since both nouns contain the article, λογος is the subject and must appear first, there is no grammatical reason to leave the article off of θεος, thus its absence means something since even if we gave it the article, it would still be the predicate. Therefore, the absence of the article would mean “A” god. In other words, since the inclusion of the article would not change the grammatical function of θεος, the exclusion of the article must therefore change the meaning of θεος.

The absence of the article in a position where the inclusion of the article would not change the word's grammatical function would mean there is a difference in specificity: the λογος is not the same individual as the Father.
Further, if it does not have an article, the position of θεος at the end of the sentence would tell us there is a difference in emphasis (θεος is being “deemphasized”): λογος is less of a god than the Father. Thus, “και ο λογος ην θεος” could only mean “the Word was a god.” But, John did NOT use this construction, so he does not mean that the word was 'a' god.

2. If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην ο θεος , it would mean “the word was THE God.” That is, the word was exactly the same person as the Father. Meaning there is only ONE person, not two being represented and would then stand as a solid case against the idea of a trinity. The Father and the Son would then be nothing more than manifestations of the same God and NOT separate individuals. The construction “και ο λογος ην θεος” then would demand that there is one God who simply appears at times in different forms. The inclusion of the article with θεος would make it specific: the λογος would then be the exactly the same individual as the Father (the exact same θεος just mentioned in the previous clause). Since both nouns have the article, θεος is grammatically locked into occurring after λογος. If it moved in front of λογος, it would change its grammatical function and become the subject. Thus, in this construction, the position of θεος would not mean anything. It must appear there. Thus, the clause “και ο λογος ην ο θεος” can only mean “Jesus was THE God” (the exact same individual as the Father). However, John did NOT use this construction, so he is not saying that the Word is the same person as the Father.

3. By writing it: και θεος ην ο λογος, John does two critical things.

a. He leaves the article off of θεος indicating that the Word is not the same individual as the father.
b. He places θεος to the front of the clause, giving extra emphasis to that word. By doing that, he makes it clear by the increase in emphasis that the absence of the article does not mean “lesser.” Since the absence of the article does not mean “lesser god,” it leaves us only one choice as to what it can mean: Not exactly the same individual as the “τον θεον” (the God) of the second clause, but every bit as much God as the “τον θεον” of the second clause. Thus, the absence of the article tells us that the θεος of the third clause is not the same individual as the τον θεον of the second clause. The position tells us that the absence of the article does not mean “lesser.” By placing θεος in a position of emphasis, John is doing the equivalent of bolding it, underlining it, and adding an exclamation point: “The Word was God!

Now, we see why John included the article in the prepositional phrase “προς τον θεον.” He was being very specific. The Word was with a specific being called “The God” (τον θεον). In the next clause, he then lets us know that the Word was completely equal with “The God” in divinity, but through the careful placement of the articles, he has shown us that the Word is not the same individual as “The God” of the second clause.

John's construction is so carefully crafted that it is often called the most concise theological statement ever made. With these seventeen words of verse one, he wrote a sentence that took me all of this space to explain. John's deliberate use of grammar leaves us only ONE possible conclusion: Jesus is completely and totally God in every way that the Father is God, but Jesus is NOT the same individual as the Father.
 
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101G

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I am not dodging you question. The answer is YES.
that's slick, U know that the LORD, all caps is the Father. and U know that the Son is the Saviour. conclusion the Father is the Son in flesh, the SAME PERSON. the Lord Jesus is the diversity of God in Flesh.
oldhermit, before we go any further I suggest U read my topic "The Godhead, diversified oneness". see, I'm not a Oneness as the upc teach. no I'm different. I teach that the Lord Jesus is the diversity, or the equal share "of" God in flesh. second I suggest you understand the prepositions "of" when dealing with the Godhead. now before you ask, "what is diversity?". simply put an offspring of God in NATURE, meaning Spirit. and look up the definition "OFFSPRING" and see how the word can be translated by the KJV. understand oldhermit, what separate your beliefs from what I believe is this, "SHARE" vs SEPARATION. I believe that God shared himself in flesh and bones. and that is based on the Greek definition G243 allos, which Identify the Lord as another. yes, another of himself. not a separate person, but the same person "SHARED" in flesh and bone. it's getting late for me. we can pick this up tomorrow. but read my topic and we will finish your part one.

be blessed.
 

oldhermit

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that's slick, U know that the LORD, all caps is the Father. and U know that the Son is the Saviour. conclusion the Father is the Son in flesh, the SAME PERSON. the Lord Jesus is the diversity of God in Flesh.
oldhermit, before we go any further I suggest U read my topic "The Godhead, diversified oneness". see, I'm not a Oneness as the upc teach. no I'm different. I teach that the Lord Jesus is the diversity, or the equal share "of" God in flesh. second I suggest you understand the prepositions "of" when dealing with the Godhead. now before you ask, "what is diversity?". simply put an offspring of God in NATURE, meaning Spirit. and look up the definition "OFFSPRING" and see how the word can be translated by the KJV. understand oldhermit, what separate your beliefs from what I believe is this, "SHARE" vs SEPARATION. I believe that God shared himself in flesh and bones. and that is based on the Greek definition G243 allos, which Identify the Lord as another. yes, another of himself. not a separate person, but the same person "SHARED" in flesh and bone. it's getting late for me. we can pick this up tomorrow. but read my topic and we will finish your part one.

be blessed.
It was not meant to be 'slick'. It is simply a critical analysis of the Greek syntax of the verse. The concept of diversified oneness is nothing new to me. I have heard all of that before.

If you prefer not to continue this, I understand.
 

101G

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It was not meant to be 'slick'. It is simply a critical analysis of the Greek syntax of the verse. The concept of diversified oneness is nothing new to me. I have heard all of that before.

If you prefer not to continue this, I understand.
please let's continue.
#2. if it was not to be meant to be slick, tell us is the Lord all cap indicate the one whom you calls father? yes or no. if yes, then the SAVIOUR is the FATHER, and that mean that the Father and the Son is the SAME Spirit, only Shared as G243 allos states, and Phil 2:6 confirms. I'll be waiting for that answer.
 

oldhermit

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please let's continue.
#2. if it was not to be meant to be slick, tell us is the Lord all cap indicate the one whom you calls father? yes or no. if yes, then the SAVIOUR is the FATHER, and that mean that the Father and the Son is the SAME Spirit, only Shared as G243 allos states, and Phil 2:6 confirms. I'll be waiting for that answer.
When you see the word Lord in all caps in the OT in some translations this is because it is always a rendering of the word Jehovah. The idea that there is a 'shared' state, at least in the way you are trying to use the word, is not constant with the use of ἀλλήλους. This is a reciporical pronoun and always, always, always implies a condition between two or more parties. A sharing of anything requires the participation of more than one person. You do not share character traits with yourself. You possess them intrinsically. I do not know if you are skilled in Greek or not. I do not know you that well. If you are, then you should know better. We will spend more time looking at this when we examine Hebrews 1 in detail.
 

101G

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When you see the word Lord in all caps in the OT in some translations this is because it is always a rendering of the word Jehovah. The idea that there is a 'shared' state, at least in the way you are trying to use the word, is not constant with the use of ἀλλήλους. This is a reciporical pronoun and always, always, always implies a condition between two or more parties. A sharing of anything requires the participation of more than one person. You do not share character traits with yourself. You possess them intrinsically. I do not know if you are skilled in Greek or not. I do not know you that well. If you are, then you should know better. We will spend more time looking at this when we examine Hebrews 1 in detail.
this is an old trick used by unitarians, when your view is going down hill, you change the words in scriptures, or change the scripture themselves. no let's examine Isaiah first and then we will get to Hebrew 1. now, just a straightforward question, "is the LORD all cap the Father or the Son, just answer the question. if not this conversation is ended.
 

oldhermit

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this is an old trick used by unitarians, when your view is going down hill, you change the words in scriptures, or change the scripture themselves. no let's examine Isaiah first and then we will get to Hebrew 1. now, just a straightforward question, "is the LORD all cap the Father or the Son, just answer the question. if not this conversation is ended.
Again you are trying to force a distinction that the text does not supply. The name Jehovah is applicable to each member of the Triadic Unity.
Why would you think I am trying to change the words or their definitions. I am simply telling you what the word ἀλλήλους mean and how it is repeatedly used in scripture. I am not simply making up definitions.

The grammatical structure of the text of John 1:1 makes it very clear that there is a marked distinction between to separate individuals.
 
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101G

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Again you are trying to force a distinction that the text does not supply. The name Jehovah is applicable to each member of the Triadic Unity.
Why would you think I am trying to change the words or their definitions. I am simply telling you what the wordἀλλήλους mean and how it is repeatedly used in scripture. I am not simply making up definitions.
again another Lie, do all the persons have the same name? if so then all is the same person. I see this lie a mile off. I asked you about the title Father and son. are you saying that the Father hold the same title as the son? yes or no. because you're lying badly. so which Jehovah is the SAVIOUR the Father or the son. I'll give you one more try. so which Jehovah is the saviour the Son or the Father, which one.
 

oldhermit

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this is an old trick used by unitarians, when your view is going down hill, you change the words in scriptures, or change the scripture themselves. no let's examine Isaiah first and then we will get to Hebrew 1. now, just a straightforward question, "is the LORD all cap the Father or the Son, just answer the question. if not this conversation is ended.
I have answered this question repeatedly. The reason you keep asking the same question again and again is not because I have not answered it. It is because you are not getting the answer you want to hear. All I can do is supply you with the testimony of scripture. If you will not believe the testimony of scripture, I do not know what else to offer you.
1 Tim 1:1, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope."
Jude 1:25, "To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus
Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

Titus 3:6, "whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."
2 Peter 3:18, "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
 

101G

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I have answered this question repeatedly. The reason you keep asking the same question again and again is not because I have not answered it. It is because you are not getting the answer you want to hear. All I can do is supply you with the testimony of scripture. If you will not believe the testimony of scripture, I do not know what else to offer you.
1 Tim 1:1, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope."
Jude 1:25, "To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus
Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

Titus 3:6, "whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."
2 Peter 3:18, "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
no not what I want to hear. simple, the only saviour is Jesus Christ. and Isaiah say that the LORD whom you call Jehovah is the ONLY saviour. well the bible say the Son is the only saviour, and his name is JESUS. it's you who don't want to believe the scriptures, and that's anti-christ, which the god, (satan) of this world have blinded your EYES to the truth.

see, I'm very clear in my view. the Lord JESUS is the only PERSON in the Godhead, and he is the ONLY saviour. so again your beliefs are in ERROR, and is reproof. when you couldn't answer the LORD as saviour question, that told me you're in gross error. Isaiah 9:6, the son is the Father. so your doctrine is false. good day.
 

lforrest

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that is your opinion, and i am not trying to contest that, understand, but that is not a "fruit" of trinity doctrine, practically speaking, and i guess we maybe need a mutually agreeable def of "fruit" here. Not to mention that i doubt our def of "eternal" is the same anyway. Personally i am pretty sure that it is not a salvational issue anyway, meaning "Eternal life" is not at stake.

A fruit is a natural product of something. Like an apple is the product of an apple tree. Or a b
that is your opinion, and i am not trying to contest that, understand, but that is not a "fruit" of trinity doctrine, practically speaking, and i guess we maybe need a mutually agreeable def of "fruit" here. Not to mention that i doubt our def of "eternal" is the same anyway. Personally i am pretty sure that it is not a salvational issue anyway, meaning "Eternal life" is not at stake.

again, that is your opinion, and after all that is all that was, is my opinion. Well, and others; so i suggest that it prolly has some truth in it, it is a popular pov, and quickly gaining more adherents, and if you are an American possibly worth considering.
maybe, maybe not, but i am persuaded that it has more validity than most would care to admit. Of course there are also people who seek to serve God in our government, too, surely.

More adherents does not lend credence to anything. Quite the opposite, 2 Tim 4:3
 

101G

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GINOLJC, could anyone address the 1 Timothy 6:13-16 scriptures. if we can address these scriptures then we can understand the person(s) in the Godhead. thanks in advance.
 

oldhermit

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For anyone who may still be following along in this discussion, here is Philippians 2

Part One

THE EMPTYING OF GODLY FORM AND EQUALITY
In Philippians 2:6, the apostle Paul begins with the acknowledgement that Jesus is God and provides us with a revealed analysis of his redemptive function. Paul does not begin his discussion of Jesus from the vantage point of the incarnation but from that of eternity. What Paul stresses in the first part of this chapter is the example of humility that Jesus gave us in his willingness to divest himself of this form for a time on our behalf. This of course does not suggest that he ceased be God. He does not strip himself of deity. I am quite sure that we will never fully understand all that is involved in Jesus’ emptying himself of divine form and equality. All we can rely on is the language of the text. The word translated emptied means to lay aside. How do we explain how, even in the flesh, he is still God yet remains so without retaining anything that defines divine nature? Perhaps ‘to lay aside’ offers the best explanation. He laid it aside as one would a garment, then in Hebrews chapter one we will see him take it up again.

Emptying of Form:
Empty
is the verb that defines the action. Equal is an adjective that defines his nature. Equality is a noun that tells what was emptied out.

This is not a passive action. This is self-actuating. No one is doing this to him. He is the one who does the emptying. What he empties out of himself is both equality with God and divine nature. He must possess these qualities intrinsically in order to empty them out of himself.

In order for Jesus to fulfill his redemptive mission, he must assume a fleshly posture. We can find at least four reasons for this in scripture. 1) Divine essence cannot die. As man he will die. 2) The requirements of the Law of Moses required a sacrifice of flesh and blood. Divine essence is not made of flesh and blood. 3) His heritage must come from a specific fleshly linage. As God, he has no linage. 4) The demands of the Law were imposed upon man and it was required that man fulfill them. The Law required not only that man fulfill its demands but that only a man of the seed of Abraham to whom the Law was given. Thus, a Gentile could never have satisfied the Law, Romans 1:1-5.

Fulfilling the function of a sacrifice required that he assume the form of a sacrifice. In this metamorphosis, he poured out of himself every expression of deity. We do not know how he does this, only that this text shows us that he did. Divine essence is now submitted to limitations. As God, these characteristics of essence are, by their very nature, without boundaries or limitations, but as man, he will be subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that limit all men. Divine character is now submitted to vulnerability. As God, he cannot be tempted, but as man, he yields his divine character to the onslaught of Satan. He becomes the second Adam. He exposes his own moral integrity to the same temptations that are common to all men, Hebrews 2:18, 4:15, and 5:2. Yet, unlike Adam, he maintains his integrity all the way to the cross, Hebrews 4:15 and 2:9. He succeeds where Adam failed. He simply never sinned.
 

oldhermit

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Part Two

Emptying of Equality:

The word translated equality is nominative and accusative plural neuter suggesting equality in quantity or quality, Thayer's p 307. This is the same language used by Jesus in Matthew 20:12. Here, Jesus relates the parable of the workers in the vineyard. The accusation by those who had labored all day was that the Master was unjust because in giving equal wages to those who had worked fewer hours than they had worked he had granted them equal status. Paul now uses this same word to express the nature of Jesus' divine status. He did not gain his divine equality by an act of seizure or robbery. This equality is his by right of divine essence.

The Form of a Servant:

Taking the form of a servant is an exchange of nature. He exchanged the essence of God for the essence of man. Spirit clothes itself with flesh, John 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:14 and 10:5-10. This is much more than just a transformation from spirit to flesh. Every attribute that defined him as God will either be submitted to limitations or subjected to vulnerability. Omnipotence yields itself to dependency. The all-sufficient one now becomes fully dependent, Isaiah 12, John 5:30 and Matthew 4:1-10. He became subject to all of the same sets of determined relations that are part of all human existence. Omniscience gives way to revelation. He must learn God’s will as a man and submit to it, Hebrews 10:7, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:49-50 and 17-4. Omnipresence confines itself to the limitations of time and space. His Eternal nature is surrendered for mortality - he became subject to death. The transcendent One became an equal among his fleshly brethren, Hebrews 2:17. The unified One became the cursed of God, Mark 15:34, Galatians 3:13 and 2Corinthians 5:21. The unchanging One became subject to change. He not only changes form but his fleshly form will also be subject to all of the changes of natural biological processes.

In keeping with the posture of a servant / slave, Paul says that he did nothing through selfishness; that he did not seek his own glory but regarded others as more important than himself. He placed the needs of others above his own. He emptied himself. The servant reserves nothing of himself. He stands stripped of all personal will. All has become completely subjected. This is total surrender of control. Now, he is in the likeness of man. In the beginning, God, this God, created man in his own image, according to his own likeness. Now, this same God steps out of eternity into time to be made in the image of his creation - man. The Creator becomes the creature. The Lord of all becomes the servant of all. The Governor of the universe becomes subordinate to another and all of this by his own will.
 

oldhermit

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Part Three

A Cloak of Humility, Philippians 2:8:

Humility is not foreign to the character of man but rather intrinsic to it. Humility is demonstrated by obedience that characterized the life and ministry of the Lord. He "became" obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." ‘Became’ suggests a change of status. Before assuming the posture of a man, he is not subject to deity as a subordinate creature or even as a lesser member of the triadic unity. This is a process of character development as a man, Matthew 26:52-54. He must learn obedience to the will of God as a man, completely subject to the will of the Father, Hebrews 5:8-9. He did not allow his status as Son of God to exempt him from the obligation of obedience. What then did he learn about obedience? There are at least eight things that scripture reveals about this learning process.

1. He learned its duty - Even though he was a son - This is the duty of sonship.
2. He learned its necessity - The cup cannot pass unless he drinks it.
3. He learned its demand - All that I am and all that I have – This is total consecration.
4. He learned its cost - For a time, it cost him even heaven itself. In the end, even his human life.
5. He learned its integrity - He kept the law of God all the way to the cross.
6. He learned its honor - He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey.
7. He learned its reward - He was highly exalted and given a name that is above every name. Because he learned all these things, he is now able to lay hold of the reward of obedience.
8. "Even death on the cross." This is the last, greatest act of humility. It is the culmination of everything in the purpose of God to redeem man back to himself. This is the last full measure of devotion for loves sake. He does not even consider equality with man a thing to hold on to. He even pours himself out to become the cursed of the cursed, Galatians 3:13 and Deuteronomy 21:23.

Enthroned and Glorified, Philippians 2:9-11
A. "Therefore" (because he humbled himself) God highly exalted him, 9.
B. "Given a name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow," 9-10 and Romans 14:11 - "Every knee shall bow and confess that Jesus is Lord / Jehovah," Isaiah 45:23.
 

101G

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Philippias 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".
the form of God is Spirit, his nature.
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
Root(s): G3313
the root, of morphe is the answer to the Lord Jesus Nature.
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion. 2. a share.

THERE IS THE ANSWER TO THE GODHEAD. the Lord Jesus is the equal "share" with God. just as Eve is the another to Adam, so is the Lord Jesus the another with the Holy Spirit, which is Spirit.
 

bbyrd009

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A fruit is a natural product of something. Like an apple is the product of an apple tree.
well, i agree, noting that "fruit" is an earthly thing, something to be consumed now, at least in my mind.
More adherents does not lend credence to anything. Quite the opposite, 2 Tim 4:3
yes yes, i agree, but there is also a sense of more people waking up to truth, and borders increasing is a sign that kind of expresses the opposite concept. But i think recognizing who the aggressor is in geopolitics should be heard.

We have the meanest dog on the block, which is the only thing keeping the dollar viable at this point. Muslim borders are currently growing, just as the "war on" whatever, drugs, caused illicit drugs to magnify, and the war on poverty created more poverty.
 

KBCid

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The grammatical structure of the text of John 1:1 makes it very clear that there is a marked distinction between to separate individuals.

Yay. You get the distinction. God and Christ are separate individuals but they are one in purpose just as he asserted that his followers should be;

John 17:11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
 

oldhermit

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Yay. You get the distinction. God and Christ are separate individuals but they are one in purpose just as he asserted that his followers should be;

John 17:11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The word you are missing here is 'we'. 'One' does not imply a numeric one any more than the many believers who are to be one.
 

KBCid

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The word you are missing here is 'we'. 'One' does not imply a numeric one any more than the many believers who are to be one.

Not sure what you mean by me missing the "we" but, you appear to understand that the "we" in the verse asserts more than one individual and the "one" asserts unity in purpose of a multitude of individuals.