The Problem With The Trinity

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oldhermit

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Not sure what you mean by me missing the "we" but, you appear to understand that the "we" in the verse asserts more than one individual and the "one" asserts unity in purpose of a multitude of individuals.
A little common sense will often go a long way is Bible reading. Jesus is praying to someone other than himself, addressing a number of issues to the Father. 'We' is a simple plural pronoun and by definition infers more than one. This particular statement shows three interactive points between Jesus and the Father.
"I come to you" He is addressing a second person.
"keep through your own name," Again, a second party address.
"those whom you have given me." Jesus acknowledges the fact that those whom he has received came from a source outside of himself.
Jesus then offers a comparison of unity, "that they may be one, as we are." The comparison is that all believers will be one in the same way that Jesus and the Father are one. All believers are not one single numeric value. They are many, yet are one. This means that 'one' must be understood as something more than a numeric one. This then begs the question, in what way is Jesus and the Father one? In what way are believers one?
 

JesusIsFaithful

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GINOLJC, could anyone address the 1 Timothy 6:13-16 scriptures. if we can address these scriptures then we can understand the person(s) in the Godhead. thanks in advance.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

You have to dissect your reference to prove your point, because that is only talking about Jesus Christ that by His appearing, He shall show all Whom has power by His appearing since He had ascended unto Heaven.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

The world was made by Him and when He became incarnated, He was still equal with God to thought it not robbery with God.

But that is not negating the plurality within that One God when the request was made to make man in their image and in their likeness.

I see the Godhead and Three Witnesses as in Three Persons within that Godhead. God cannot be a One Person God. In according to His words, man cannot judge any one by one witness. There has to be at least two or three other witnesses to establish a testimony or a word as God had to do in creation or when judging the people at the tower of Babylon.

God cannot judge as One Person God or establish a testimony unless there are Two Witnesses which was what had happened at the water baptism of Jesus Christ from Heaven for God's testimony of the Son to be true.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Can God the Father just speak from Heaven regarding His Son without the Holy Spirit descending on the Son for His testimony about the Son to be true in according to His word? No.

So why are you insisting on what no one in the N.T. has striven to clarify to the churches, especially when 1 John 5:7 is originally part of scripture testifying to the Three Witnesses in Heaven as the Triune God?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

How can the witness of God in according to His words be greater then men unless He is a Triune God that has Two Witnesses to vouch that the Son is also God?
 
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FHII

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I am going to go ahead and post the second part of the John 1 discussion for your consideration and then I am going to bed. It is midnight here.


CRITICAL LINGUISTIC ANALYSIS OF VERSE ONE


εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος . This is the most concise theological statement ever made and it is the way in which John arranges this given set of words in verse one that makes it so.

I. The use of the article in verse one.
It must be understood that with all language, there are rules of grammar that must be recognized and followed. If not, then communication become impossible. The following was given by a professor of New Testament Greek whose name I do not know. I have rewritten some of the arguments for the purpose of clarity and flow. Though a brilliant scholar, he was not particularly gifted as a writer. I have added some of my own comments and observations but the basic arguments of each point are his.

NT Greek normally drops the article in a prepositional phrase so the absence of the article in a prepositional phrase is normal and doesn't mean anything. It is when we find examples such as John 1:1 were the article is included in a prepositional phrase that is unusual and should therefore grab our attention. It is the inclusion of the article that is significant. For example, the prepositional phrase “εν αρχη” (in the beginning) does not contain an article in the Greek, but is still properly translated "in the beginning." The prepositional phrase “προς τον θεον” (with God) however, does include the definite article (τον). Since it was proper NOT to include it, the inclusion here means something. Generally speaking, the inclusion of an article when one is not expected means the writer are being specific, in this case a particular individual who is God. In order to fully understand how that affects this verse, we need to go to the last clause.

To understand the implications of the last clause, one needs to understand Greek syntax. Greek distinguishes the role a noun plays in a sentence by changing the case. Generally, if the noun is the subject, it is in the nominative spelling. If it is the direct object, it is in the accusative spelling. However, there is a strange class of verbs that do not take a direct object, they take a predicate. There are three verbs that do this in NT Greek. This means you have two nouns that are in the nominative case, where one is the subject, and one is the predicate nominative. So, if both are in the same case, how does one determine which is the subject, and which is the predicate? The rules are as follows.

A. If BOTH nouns have the article attached, then the first noun is the subject and the second noun is the predicate.
B. If NEITHER noun has the article attached, then the first is the subject and the second is the predicate.
C. If ONE noun has an article and the other does not, then the one with the article is the subject, and the one without the article is the predicate. So, in the phrase “και θεος ην ο λογος” (and the Word was God), we see that λογος has an article (ὁ) and θεος does not. Thus “ὁ λογος” is the subject, while θεος is the predicate. “The Word was God.” θεος as the predicate, describes what the λογος is. Who he is, is the Word. What he is, is God. When translated into English, because λογος is the subject, we have to put it first, so this is properly translated “And the word was God.” There are three things this could mean depending on the construction. It could mean:

1. The word was a lesser god than the Father (τον θεον in the previous clause).
2. The word was the father.
3. The word was fully God, but was NOT the Father.
So, how do we determine which is the meaning of the clause?

B. Understanding the implications of this syntax.

1. If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην θεος, it would mean “the word was A god.” That is, the word was a lesser god than the father. The reason is that since both nouns contain the article, λογος is the subject and must appear first, there is no grammatical reason to leave the article off of θεος, thus its absence means something since even if we gave it the article, it would still be the predicate. Therefore, the absence of the article would mean “A” god. In other words, since the inclusion of the article would not change the grammatical function of θεος, the exclusion of the article must therefore change the meaning of θεος.

The absence of the article in a position where the inclusion of the article would not change the word's grammatical function would mean there is a difference in specificity: the λογος is not the same individual as the Father.
Further, if it does not have an article, the position of θεος at the end of the sentence would tell us there is a difference in emphasis (θεος is being “deemphasized”): λογος is less of a god than the Father. Thus, “και ο λογος ην θεος” could only mean “the Word was a god.” But, John did NOT use this construction, so he does not mean that the word was 'a' god.

2. If John had written the clause: και ο λογος ην ο θεος , it would mean “the word was THE God.” That is, the word was exactly the same person as the Father. Meaning there is only ONE person, not two being represented and would then stand as a solid case against the idea of a trinity. The Father and the Son would then be nothing more than manifestations of the same God and NOT separate individuals. The construction “και ο λογος ην θεος” then would demand that there is one God who simply appears at times in different forms. The inclusion of the article with θεος would make it specific: the λογος would then be the exactly the same individual as the Father (the exact same θεος just mentioned in the previous clause). Since both nouns have the article, θεος is grammatically locked into occurring after λογος. If it moved in front of λογος, it would change its grammatical function and become the subject. Thus, in this construction, the position of θεος would not mean anything. It must appear there. Thus, the clause “και ο λογος ην ο θεος” can only mean “Jesus was THE God” (the exact same individual as the Father). However, John did NOT use this construction, so he is not saying that the Word is the same person as the Father.

3. By writing it: και θεος ην ο λογος, John does two critical things.

a. He leaves the article off of θεος indicating that the Word is not the same individual as the father.
b. He places θεος to the front of the clause, giving extra emphasis to that word. By doing that, he makes it clear by the increase in emphasis that the absence of the article does not mean “lesser.” Since the absence of the article does not mean “lesser god,” it leaves us only one choice as to what it can mean: Not exactly the same individual as the “τον θεον” (the God) of the second clause, but every bit as much God as the “τον θεον” of the second clause. Thus, the absence of the article tells us that the θεος of the third clause is not the same individual as the τον θεον of the second clause. The position tells us that the absence of the article does not mean “lesser.” By placing θεος in a position of emphasis, John is doing the equivalent of bolding it, underlining it, and adding an exclamation point: “The Word was God!

Now, we see why John included the article in the prepositional phrase “προς τον θεον.” He was being very specific. The Word was with a specific being called “The God” (τον θεον). In the next clause, he then lets us know that the Word was completely equal with “The God” in divinity, but through the careful placement of the articles, he has shown us that the Word is not the same individual as “The God” of the second clause.

John's construction is so carefully crafted that it is often called the most concise theological statement ever made. With these seventeen words of verse one, he wrote a sentence that took me all of this space to explain. John's deliberate use of grammar leaves us only ONE possible conclusion: Jesus is completely and totally God in every way that the Father is God, but Jesus is NOT the same individual as the Father.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. When John 1:1 says that the word was with God (1) and the Word was God (2) that there are two separate Gods?

I am looking at the computer tools I have at my disposal. I don't see anywhere in John 1 the father mentioned until verse 14 when the Word was made flesh. It seems to me that suggesting that God (1) was the Father is presuming more than what is written.
 

101G

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You have to dissect your reference to prove your point, because that is only talking about Jesus Christ that by His appearing, He shall show all Whom has power by His appearing since He had ascended unto Heaven.
thanks for your response. ok, I'm zeroing in on verse 16 "Who only hath immortality, ". my question, "why is the Lord Jesus is the only one who have immortality, if there are three in the Godhead?
 

oldhermit

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So let me see if I understand you correctly. When John 1:1 says that the word was with God (1) and the Word was God (2) that there are two separate Gods?

I am looking at the computer tools I have at my disposal. I don't see anywhere in John 1 the father mentioned until verse 14 when the Word was made flesh. It seems to me that suggesting that God (1) was the Father is presuming more than what is written.
No, there is only one God but, God is not a numeric one. He is a unity of persons. The language of John 1:1 is very clear and the grammatical structure and syntax of the Greek gives no other alternative. If you do not know anything about Greek, this evidence may not mean much to you but, those who know Greek will know what I am talking about.
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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thanks for your response. ok, I'm zeroing in on verse 16 "Who only hath immortality, ". my question, "why is the Lord Jesus is the only one who have immortality, if there are three in the Godhead?

Because that was in relation to men since He had become incarnated to become as a man to give His life as a ransom for many. Paul starts off giving the background on the man, Jesus, before Pontius Pilate, thus the necessity as far as in relations to men is concern when He comes back as the King of kings to reign on earth as He will "show" that He only has immortality where NOW dwelling in the light where no man can approach nor see Him in.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Obviously when He comes back to reign as King of kings, the generations coming out of the milleniel reign of Christ will see Him reign as an Immortal.

Right now, He is dwelling in the light where no man can approach nor see Him in.

So "Who only hath immortality" is in relations to the living when He comes back as King of kings to reign over them during the milleniel reign of Christ.
 

101G

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So "Who only hath immortality" is in relations to the living when He comes back as King of kings to reign over them during the milleniel reign of Christ.
thanks for your explanation, but it falls short. immortality is immortality either before he comes back or after, understand. now the point if he's the only one with immortality, that eliminate any separate person (without immortality). one just don't get immortality by themselves. so you need to give a better explanation. remember the definition of "ONLY", and please re-read verse 16 again.
 

oldhermit

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So let me see if I understand you correctly. When John 1:1 says that the word was with God (1) and the Word was God (2) that there are two separate Gods?

I am looking at the computer tools I have at my disposal. I don't see anywhere in John 1 the father mentioned until verse 14 when the Word was made flesh. It seems to me that suggesting that God (1) was the Father is presuming more than what is written.
Yes, I did refer to the θεον of the second clause as the Father. θεον is used rather generically to refer to either one or all of the members of the Triadic Unity. Since the text of John 1 is making a distinction between the λογος and the θεον of the second clause, this only leaves us with three alternatives for who this θεον is. It could be the Father, it could be the Holy Spirit, or it could refer to both the Father and the Spirit. Personally, I believe this is probably closer to the point than just referring to the Father exclusively.
 

FHII

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No, there is only one God but, God is not a numeric one. He is a unity of persons. The language of John 1:1 is very clear and the grammatical structure and syntax of the Greek gives no other alternative. If you do not know anything about Greek, this evidence may not mean much to you but, those who know Greek will know what I am talking about.
I don't speak Greek. But I have translations at my disposal. Nowhere in Jogn 1:1 is the Father (pater; am I correct?) mentioned. I am going by what you wrote. Everything in your part 2 seems to suggest the there were two Gods. Yet there cannot be two Gods but there were.... And thus goes the circular reasoning.

I can understand a football team being one team, a congess being one congress or the Body of Christ being one body (all) with many members. When we speak of such things we aren't speaking of one person.

If God is not a numeric 1 what kind of 1 is he? Due 6:4 says the Lord thy God is one Lord. Jesus was Lord. The Father was Lord, but there is only one Lord?
 

oldhermit

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I don't speak Greek. But I have translations at my disposal. Nowhere in Jogn 1:1 is the Father (pater; am I correct?) mentioned. I am going by what you wrote. Everything in your part 2 seems to suggest the there were two Gods. Yet there cannot be two Gods but there were.... And thus goes the circular reasoning.

I can understand a football team being one team, a congess being one congress or the Body of Christ being one body (all) with many members. When we speak of such things we aren't speaking of one person.

If God is not a numeric 1 what kind of 1 is he? Due 6:4 says the Lord thy God is one Lord. Jesus was Lord. The Father was Lord, but there is only one Lord?
I am afraid I am going to have to wait until I get back home to respond to this. I am sorry. Service here is very poor.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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thanks for your explanation, but it falls short. immortality is immortality either before he comes back or after, understand. now the point if he's the only one with immortality, that eliminate any separate person (without immortality). one just don't get immortality by themselves. so you need to give a better explanation. remember the definition of "ONLY", and please re-read verse 16 again.

I do not need to reread it when you just do not agree with Paul referring to the man Christ Jesus before Pontius Pilate in addressing the readers as to how He is the only One with immortality in regards to mankind because He is God. This is not a testimony that He is a One Person God.

Explain how One Person God can bear witness of the Son as God when Jesus said in John 5:31, that if He bears witness of Himself, His witness is not true. Jesus said that mankind needs to have two witnesses for any testimony to be true ( John 8:17 ) and so the same is true for God in bearing witness of the Son as God at His water baptism.

Trying to explain that God uses different titles as a One Person God is having a God going against His own word in how to be a true witness. That cannot be.

We can get believers coming in here, denying Jesus is God by saying He prayed to God the Father and acknowledged Him as His God and they would be taking scripture out of context for their errant belief. You either take the whole of scripture or you are insisting on a reading of a part of scripture to your point of view at the expense of the truths in other parts of the scripture, because in according to His word, God as a One Person God cannot judge then.

Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
 

101G

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I do not need to reread it when you just do not agree with Paul referring to the man Christ Jesus before Pontius Pilate in addressing the readers as to how He is the only One with immortality in regards to mankind because He is God. This is not a testimony that He is a One Person God.

Explain how One Person God can bear witness of the Son as God when Jesus said in John 5:31, that if He bears witness of Himself, His witness is not true. Jesus said that mankind needs to have two witnesses for any testimony to be true ( John 8:17 ) and so the same is true for God in bearing witness of the Son as God at His water baptism.

Trying to explain that God uses different titles as a One Person God is having a God going against His own word in how to be a true witness. That cannot be.

We can get believers coming in here, denying Jesus is God by saying He prayed to God the Father and acknowledged Him as His God and they would be taking scripture out of context for their errant belief. You either take the whole of scripture or you are insisting on a reading of a part of scripture to your point of view at the expense of the truths in other parts of the scripture, because in according to His word, God as a One Person God cannot judge then.

Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
first thanks for the response. second, follow me in explaining the second witness. straight out of the box. the Lord Jesus is the another of God himself in flesh. not a switch of hats. no, listen, the Lord Jesus is the G243 allos of God himself. what do this mean? another, the definition of G243 states, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".
did you see it? a numerical difference is more that one. this is the plurality of God by sharing himself in flesh. in the Hebrew it is the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym of God. just as in Genesis 1:1 the aleph and the tav, in English the "first" and the "Last". this is the numerical difference that G243 allos states, meaning two so you have two individual which is the same person, because he is of the same nature. and Phil 2:6 back this up. if you have any question please ask.
my source on ANOTHER, G243 allos: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
 

JesusIsFaithful

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first thanks for the response. second, follow me in explaining the second witness. straight out of the box. the Lord Jesus is the another of God himself in flesh. not a switch of hats. no, listen, the Lord Jesus is the G243 allos of God himself. what do this mean? another, the definition of G243 states, Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".
did you see it? a numerical difference is more that one. this is the plurality of God by sharing himself in flesh. in the Hebrew it is the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym of God. just as in Genesis 1:1 the aleph and the tav, in English the "first" and the "Last". this is the numerical difference that G243 allos states, meaning two so you have two individual which is the same person, because he is of the same nature. and Phil 2:6 back this up. if you have any question please ask.
my source on ANOTHER, G243 allos: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

May I ask you to confirm with the only source that matters? The Lord Jesus Christ.

Because allos expressing a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort can still be applied to Jesus being a different Person of the same God but of that Triune God.

You cannot have a numerical difference if He is the One God. You cannot denote "another" of the same God unless deferring from Others within that same God.

So even there I can apply the meaning to how I believe and yet who is right? Who has the final authority? The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One that can help us to see the truth in His words to understand what the scripture is actually saying as a whole about Who God is for that Triune God to be able to judge.
 

oldhermit

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I don't speak Greek. But I have translations at my disposal. Nowhere in Jogn 1:1 is the Father (pater; am I correct?) mentioned. I am going by what you wrote. Everything in your part 2 seems to suggest the there were two Gods. Yet there cannot be two Gods but there were.... And thus goes the circular reasoning.

I can understand a football team being one team, a congess being one congress or the Body of Christ being one body (all) with many members. When we speak of such things we aren't speaking of one person.

If God is not a numeric 1 what kind of 1 is he? Due 6:4 says the Lord thy God is one Lord. Jesus was Lord. The Father was Lord, but there is only one Lord?
Ok. I am finally back home. My service at home is rather poor and that is why you may have to sometimes wait for a response. But is certainly better than where I was earlier. In Deut 6:4, you have a form of Elohim, which as I am sure you are aware, is a plural noun. This plural Elohim then constitutes one God. I gave this example earlier but perhaps this needs to said again. Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God in these terms our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.
 

101G

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May I ask you to confirm with the only source that matters? The Lord Jesus Christ.

Because allos expressing a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort can still be applied to Jesus being a different Person of the same God but of that Triune God.

You cannot have a numerical difference if He is the One God. You cannot denote "another" of the same God unless deferring from Others within that same God.

So even there I can apply the meaning to how I believe and yet who is right? Who has the final authority? The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One that can help us to see the truth in His words to understand what the scripture is actually saying as a whole about Who God is for that Triune God to be able to judge.
the final authority is God, let's prove what you have raised. Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". this is scriptural. now may I ask, what is the form of God? answer, his nature which is Spirit.
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
the million dollar question is what kind of nature do the Lord Jesus have? answer, "the EQUAL nature". and how is that accomplish? answer, the root of G3444 μορφή morphe tells us. which is
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion. 2. a share.
now we have the answer, the Lord Jesus is the "Equal" share as the root of morphe states. now, being being the "EQUAL" share, how do we identify it. answer "another" G243 allos. is this in God creation? YES, listen Adam/Man is ANOTHER of himself.
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
KJV: X another, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

do you see it now?" another" is the key, that's why God is a Plurality of HIMSELF. now understand JesusIsFaithful, G243 allos states that this numerical difference is of the same "SORT". look up "sort", and you will find that this numerical difference, this EQUAL SHARE is in the same group, same class, and the same kind. other words the God class. not a separate PERSON but the EQUAL SHARE, of the sme PERSON.

Now I went to the final authority, the scriptures.
 

mjrhealth

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Now I went to the final authority, the scriptures.
Actually Jesus is and God and teh Holy Spirit,

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 

FHII

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Yes, I did refer to the θεον of the second clause as the Father. θεον is used rather generically to refer to either one or all of the members of the Triadic Unity. Since the text of John 1 is making a distinction between the λογος and the θεον of the second clause, this only leaves us with three alternatives for who this θεον is. It could be the Father, it could be the Holy Spirit, or it could refer to both the Father and the Spirit. Personally, I believe this is probably closer to the point than just referring to the Father exclusively.

So
Ok. I am finally back home. My service at home is rather poor and that is why you may have to sometimes wait for a response. But is certainly better than where I was earlier. In Deut 6:4, you have a form of Elohim, which as I am sure you are aware, is a plural noun. This plural Elohim then constitutes one God. I gave this example earlier but perhaps this needs to said again. Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet, they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God in these terms our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.

Yes Elohim is a plural known in its form alone. But the word in context (here, Due 6:4) is not. Everything about this verse and its meaning as a whole says there is only one and not even a collection of one.

As I stated earlier, I don't read Greek and certainly not Hebrew either. But I did some research and the first two websites confirmed this.

They brought up an interesting point. If you were to ask a Jew about this controversy, what would he say?

Perhaps we should move on. I am not believing that Elohim being plural in its naked form means there is a trinity, nor am I believing there were 2 separate Gods (but really just one...) in John 1:1.
 

mjrhealth

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So let me see if I understand you correctly. When John 1:1 says that the word was with God (1) and the Word was God (2) that there are two separate Gods?
You have words do you not, they are formed in you mouth, they belong to you even long after they have left your mouth. You can kill with your words, by speaking something to someone, long after you have forgotten those wrods could be condeming someone or giving them life. Gods Word is Spirit. when His word was received by MAry and accepted it bore life in Her. His word became flesh, it is not Him yet it is still a part of Him and His word became Jesus, 2 separt persons but united as one, and as He says His word, Jesus returned to Him complete as it always does. Still one God, now we have His word alive as Jesus. No majician could perform that act.
 

oldhermit

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So


Yes Elohim is a plural known in its form alone. But the word in context (here, Due 6:4) is not. Everything about this verse and its meaning as a whole says there is only one and not even a collection of one.

As I stated earlier, I don't read Greek and certainly not Hebrew either. But I did some research and the first two websites confirmed this.

They brought up an interesting point. If you were to ask a Jew about this controversy, what would he say?

Perhaps we should move on. I am not believing that Elohim being plural in its naked form means there is a trinity, nor am I believing there were 2 separate Gods (but really just one...) in John 1:1.
Of course there is only one God. This is the most fundamental truth in all of scripture. This is not even debatable. What we are examining is simply the complex of this one God. We know that scripture confirms that the Father is God, Christ is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and we see them interacting with one another repeatedly. This does not make them three separate Gods any more than 'c', 'e', and 'g' constitutes three separate chords. This study is for the purpose of trying to understand the complexity of the nature of one God.
 
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