The proof of OSAS

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, there is no knowing where they are now. I remember one in particular as he was, and as he became that last I knew. He found Durin's Bain and was lost in Moria. That verse, had nothing to do with it. However if the verse is true ...

Another, through disillusionment. Which I understood at the time. Thus, the verse did not really apply.

However, there are some cases.

But I agree with you, it serves more as a warning unto those left.

God will always accept our return to Him.
It was aimed at those practicing Judaism.
They came from a strong system of belief.
If they went BACK to it, indeed it would be difficult for them to leave it a second time.

 

[GodsGrace]

What could/would stop you from following him to the end?

I thought of something.

My son in laws brother married a divorced woman.
She's Christian. Or so she says. They go to mass every week and even receive communion.
They weren't allowed to till recently.

So. In effect, she's living in adultery.
She left God for her marriage.
Is she saved?
Only God knows for sure.

 

[amadeus]

What could/would stop you from following him to the end?

My own old ways if I should choose to follow them. Like Jesus as a man we continue to be tempted. Until we have overcome all of those old way completely the possibility of following them continues.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

My own old ways if I should choose to follow them. Like Jesus as a man we continue to be tempted. Until we have overcome all of those old way completely the possibility of following them continues.

I don't feel that way, that's why I wonder how you could feel that way.
Galatians Chapter 5 tell us what will keep us out of heaven.
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Do you really believe that any of these may overcome you from now til the end?

 

[amadeus]

I don't feel that way, that's why I wonder how you could feel that way.
Galatians Chapter 5 tell us what will keep us out of heaven.
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Do you really believe that any of these may overcome you from now til the end?

No, I do not, but what does at times happen is a person lets go of his first love slightly and then more sharply as he gets lazy and even weary and all of a sudden without realizing that was his direction he is into delusion. If a person loves God and communicates with God daily and asks God for help daily that person will never fall back into sinful ways. He may even sin along the way, but because of who he really loves he will pull himself up short or he will ask God to take hold of his reins once more.

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." Gal 6:9

If a person really loves truth he never grow weary because he is always trying to approach his love more closely.

 

[bbyrd009]

gotta admit impurity is pretty nebulous

 

[Wormwood]

Grace comes through faith. If a person is without faith, they do not have grace. Turning the Christian life into a Gnostic, one-time affirmation that seals a person's eternal security is a great mistake, IMO. The NT simply provides too many warnings about drifting away and turning from the faith to suggest that a momentary affirmation of facts means a person is suddenly "saved." Jesus called people to discipleship, not conversion.

 

[FHII]

While I believe in predestination and OSAS.... Ihave to ask a question: What good is that knowledge that it exists?

God has written 66 books that tell us what we must do. Despite all our arguing over doctrine, God has provided the answer. If we do them, we're in the clear... If not, well...

My point is not to debate those doctrines (not in this thread) but to ask what we do with the knowledge that if we follow them we are saved. Why? Because you must run the race till the end.

No one (including me) ever says we will lose faith and forsake God. Yet it happens. God gave us a plan. He didn't give us certificates, diplomas or championship rings. Those will come. But he doesn't give them out ahead of time.

He knows who will get them. He predestinated us to get them. He declared it before Gen 1:1. But he never told us. Otherwise, we wouldn't run the race.

OSAS is real. Once Damned, Always Damned is also real. God knows; we don't.

Again, I submit to you that some are predestined to be saved and some are foreordained to damnation. But God never said who that was... At least not concerning this generation.

The fact that predestination exists and OSAS exists is great.... But its knowledge we can do nothing with. We can take comfort in it with knowing that if we are the chosen, God will see to it that we persevere.

But we must persevere.

 

[Richard_oti]

God will always accept our return to Him.
It was aimed at those practicing Judaism.
They came from a strong system of belief.
If they went BACK to it, indeed it would be difficult for them to leave it a second time.

Yeah, there I disagree with regard to the practice of Judaism and going back to that.

If I may use you as an example: You believe that we are to uphold the commands / commandments, inclusive of the 10, and others that you see as Jesus having stated as "commands".

There are those I am sure they have accused you of having returned to the "law" due to your beliefs.

If you occasionally stumble and break one, there is forgiveness. However, if you were to intentionally turn away from upholding them, would that not be "willful sin"?

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth YHVH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of YHVH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Being partakers in the Holy Spirit, is where it becomes more grievous from my perspective. Just as the comparison with regard to Moses and the Blood of the covenant in Hebrews 10 which I quoted above.

I do not doubt that certain people can return and be accepted. However, neither shall they attain to fullness of what might of been from my perspective. However, neither am I convinced that such is the case for "everyone".

We can certainly grieve the Holy Spirit, we can certainly quench the Holy Spirit. If we intentionally choose to do so in a consistent, habitual and willful manner ...

For being partakers in the Holy Spirit, could loosely be likened to those who also witnessed and heard the voice of "God", yet turned away ... And for them, they did not receive the "promise".

 

[aspen]

Peace of mind is ellusive, so is salvation. Both are a state of being which cannot be acheived apart from Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, there I disagree with regard to the practice of Judaism and going back to that.

You can disagree, however Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking about Jewish believers that were considering going back to Judaism. Of course some sects of Christianity will not accept this due to their belief in eternal security.

If I may use you as an example: You believe that we are to uphold the commands / commandments, inclusive of the 10, and others that you see as Jesus having stated as "commands".

To clarify, the 10 commandments of God and the commandments of Jesus are the same. Jesus did not make up any new commandments -- He just clarified the old ones. And by no means do I follow the 613 being a Christian person and not an O.T. Jew.

There are those I am sure they have accused you of having returned to the "law" due to your beliefs.

I cannot have returned to the law since I come not from the law.
I've been called a cake eater, a worker for, a legalist, a pharisee.
If this is what one has to be called because they believe Jesus commands are to be followed -- so be it.

If you occasionally stumble and break one, there is forgiveness. However, if you were to intentionally turn away from upholding them, would that not be "willful sin"?

Most sin is willful. Very rarely do we commit a sin that we do not know is sin. I must turn away from God to be lost, we will always have sin in our lives - unfortunately the sin nature is under submission, but is not radicated.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth YHVH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of YHVH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Being partakers in the Holy Spirit, is where it becomes more grievous from my perspective. Just as the comparison with regard to Moses and the Blood of the covenant in Hebrews 10 which I quoted above.

I do not doubt that certain people can return and be accepted. However, neither shall they attain to fullness of what might of been from my perspective. However, neither am I convinced that such is the case for "everyone".

This is possible. Everyone is different.

We can certainly grieve the Holy Spirit, we can certainly quench the Holy Spirit. If we intentionally choose to do so in a consistent, habitual and willful manner ...

For being partakers in the Holy Spirit, could loosely be likened to those who also witnessed and heard the voice of "God", yet turned away ... And for them, they did not receive the "promise".

You're doing a lot of quoting from the O.T.
I'd like to remind you that we do not belong to the Old Covenant but the New Covenant.

And as such, the commands of God must still be followed, as best as possible, this has not changed -- HOW we keep the commandments has changed.

CLICK TO EXPAND

 

[tabletalk]

Grace comes through faith. If a person is without faith, they do not have grace. Turning the Christian life into a Gnostic, one-time affirmation that seals a person's eternal security is a great mistake, IMO. The NT simply provides too many warnings about drifting away and turning from the faith to suggest that a momentary affirmation of facts means a person is suddenly "saved." Jesus called people to discipleship, not conversion.

You said: "Jesus called people to discipleship, not conversion."
From Matthew18.
1.At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2. Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3. and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me."

10. “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11. For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Conversion and salvation.

From Matthew 28:
18. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Making disciples, teaching the nations to follow God's commands.
I think that only someone who is converted can follow God's commands.
So, it looks like Jesus called people to conversion and discipleship.

 

[GodsGrace]

Grace comes through faith. If a person is without faith, they do not have grace. Turning the Christian life into a Gnostic, one-time affirmation that seals a person's eternal security is a great mistake, IMO. The NT simply provides too many warnings about drifting away and turning from the faith to suggest that a momentary affirmation of facts means a person is suddenly "saved." Jesus called people to discipleship, not conversion.

I agree with all you've said except I became a little confused at this:
Jesus called people to discipleship, not conversion.

Don't you believe one has to be converted FIRST, and then be a disciple of Jesus?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

While I believe in predestination and OSAS.... Ihave to ask a question: What good is that knowledge that it exists?

God has written 66 books that tell us what we must do. Despite all our arguing over doctrine, God has provided the answer. If we do them, we're in the clear... If not, well...

My point is not to debate those doctrines (not in this thread) but to ask what we do with the knowledge that if we follow them we are saved. Why? Because you must run the race till the end.

No one (including me) ever says we will lose faith and forsake God. Yet it happens. God gave us a plan. He didn't give us certificates, diplomas or championship rings. Those will come. But he doesn't give them out ahead of time.

He knows who will get them. He predestinated us to get them. He declared it before Gen 1:1. But he never told us. Otherwise, we wouldn't run the race.

OSAS is real. Once Damned, Always Damned is also real. God knows; we don't.

Again, I submit to you that some are predestined to be saved and some are foreordained to damnation. But God never said who that was... At least not concerning this generation.

The fact that predestination exists and OSAS exists is great.... But its knowledge we can do nothing with. We can take comfort in it with knowing that if we are the chosen, God will see to it that we persevere.

But we must persevere.

We persevere because God is with us and helps us get through.
He will never forsake us,
He will never leave us alone.

If we are lost, he will come find us, whatever it takes.
That's what OSAS is all about.

 

[bbyrd009]

He predestinated us to get them

us? hmm

 

[bbyrd009]

CLICK TO EXPAND

hard to argue with that i guess lol

when i try, your words come out as his now

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't you believe one has to be converted FIRST, and then be a disciple of Jesus?

if you don't go through the fire, you have to go through the water i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

If we are lost, he will come find us

us again--who is this "us" here? ty

 

[GodsGrace]

hard to argue with that i guess lol

when i try, your words come out as his now

Aren't they a different color? Red or Brown?

 

[GodsGrace]

if you don't go through the fire, you have to go through the water i guess

Conversion ain't a fire!