The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Purity]

Shalom, Rex.


Well, it's clear to me that you fall into that category of people who say, "My mind's made up; don't bother me with the facts." I will try to reduce the lengths of my posts whenever I can, but I can see that my "stupid lessons in Greek and Hebrew" are just falling on deaf ears, anyway. In one ear and out the other with nothing in between to catch them.

I'm done talking with you. Anything more will just be a waste of time and effort.


Matthew 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
KJV

Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!

I like the Hebrew and Greek after all the Gospel wasn't written in English.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, a sound point to assist those to better define God's plan with natural Israel. He will eventually through their refining become Spiritual Israel. What mindset ought the Christian possess as Paul taught in Rom 15:27 concerning our partaking of their spiritual things.

Gentiles (CB forum) have been aliens from the commonwealth of Israel Eph 2:11-22 cp Eph 3:16 & John 4:22, but now they are attached to the hope of the promise made of God to the fathers (Acts 26:6KJV).

Purity

p.s Note to Rex the Church has not replaced Israel but we have been grafted into their Olive Tree.

In essence there can be no such idea as 'Replacement Theology' based on what Apostle Paul showed with the "commonwealth of Israel" idea. Replacement is only a theological term meaningful to those who follow man's doctrines of Dispensationalism which attempts to separate the seed of Israel apart from Christ's Church so they can try and push their Pre-trib secret rapture theory. It is not a concept written in God's Word, but by men.

Because so many fail to study the Old Testament Books like we're supposed to, they haven't understood what the new name of Israel which God gave to Jacob is really about. It's the Salvation name, and it's tied to God's promises and covenants in The Gospel Faith which Abraham believed (Gal.3).

This is why the unbelieving seed of Israel is cut off as long as they remain in unbelief.

The other matter is that God did reserve certain specific promises to the seed of Israel regardless, the 1 Kings 11:31-37 Scripture for one, which is why a remnant of the seed has always dwelt at Jerusalem. God made that promise for king David's and Jerusalem's sake, not their's because they rebelled against God, but because God chose Jerusalem to put His Name there.

But the rest of the promises went to the believing seed of Israel and the believing Gentiles graffed in with them, as Christ's Church. This is the part the Jews especially hate and call Replacement Theology, simply because the false Jews over them hate our Lord Jesus Christ and actually all of God's people.

When God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms per 1 Kings 11, and gave 10 tribes to Jeroboam of Ephraim, that was in prep for The Gospel of Jesus Christ coming and the moving of His vineyard to the new nation that Jesus said would bring forth its fruits (Matt.21). When our Lord Jesus said that to the priests and elders of the Jews in Jerusalem, the 10 tribes had already been removed out their care, and had migrated to new lands where The Gospel would be sent to, and they along with the Gentiles, would believe on Christ Jesus. And that's when God's promises and covenants went to the "commonwealth of Israel" of Christ's Church established mainly in the Christian west.

That's why Judah in Jerusalem no longer has a king from the seed of Israel over them; do not rule the gates of their enemies coming and going; do not hold the majority of the best lands and resources of the earth; and do not fit the promise to Ephraim that he would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). ALL... those promises were from God give first to Abraham, and they then went to Isaac, then Jacob, and then fell upon Joseph and his two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today. The Jews hate that, but it is written in God's Word, and most of all, it is fulfilled history.

 

[daq]

Daq, if you were sitting where I am reading this above statement a number of questions would present.

1. Do you believe in a literal Armageddon?
2. Do you believe in resurrected flesh nature to be judge and changed?
3. Do you believe Yahweh has taken His eyes off Israel?
4. Have you forgotten the innumerable prophecies concerning the literal throne of David and Christ's ascension thereon?
5. Have you denied the "symbolic" 1000 year reign of Christ over the nations?

I have not placed any Scriptural references as I would like to hear your thoughts on these questions first.


There will be no displacing Jews, quiet the contrary. I must disagree with your comment concerning the Kingdom being now (in its fullness)!

For all nations are not subject to Zion's King. Have we taken part in the campaigns of Christ to subdue and humble the nations which will end with total subjection of all peoples?

Only then Daq will "all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him" (Ps. 72:11). Then will be fulfilled Rev. 11:15 - "The kingdom of the world has become our Lord's and his Christ's,and he shall reign for the ages of the ages". They must be subjugated to Zion's glorious king the nations will be ready to receive the blessings of his reign and guidance. These blessings will be bestowed in many different ways affecting every avenue of human life. The ministers of blessing and instruction will be the glorified saints.

Now it may be Daq I have misunderstood so I eagerly await your reply.

1) Spirit is literal and I know of a certainty that likewise what you call "Armageddon" is real but not the way that you currently perceive it. 2) Not sure what you mean by "resurrected flesh nature". Put to death the "flesh nature" because if you do not he will kill you at Armageddon. 3) Absolutely not, however, "Israel" is not a location on a map but rather Israel is the man Jacob and his twelve sons. 4) Yeshua is seated on the throne of David now because the throne of David is my heart. It was a indescribably beautiful dawn in the morning that the Day Star rose up from the Anatole sun rising and sealed me forever, (by the way lightning does not flash all the way across the sky as far as the east is from the west but rather only the perfectly straight first rays of light from the morning dawn can do such a thing). 5) Have you not read that the first day beside the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as day one? Beware lest you be found a grumbler, complainer, or a murmurer, like the children of Israel which died off in the wilderness. What if your first visitation from the Lord has already occurred when you were first introduced to him and became a babe in the kingdom? The Lord appeared twice unto Solomon and "the Preacher" then wrote in the end that he knew what it was to live "a thousand years twice told".

Quote Purity]"There will be no displacing the Jews"[End quote.

Priests have absolutely no inheritance in any physical land whatsoever; likewise, in this world, we have no continuing city.

Quote Purity]"Have we taken part in the campaigns of Christ to subdue and humble the nations which will end with total subjection of all peoples?"[End quote.

In the doctrine of Yeshua there are seven heathen nations which are the seven mountains with their seven devil-kings:

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Those seven devils and their doctrines I rule with a Rod of Iron, which is Torah, which the Master has put into my hand by the Word of his doctrine which interprets Torah for me in the Gospel accounts. On the throne of my heart is the Son of man, on the throne over him is the Father, and as for myself I was made third ruler of my dominion in the night that Beldak was slain. All of the former kings of my land bow the knee to my Master, his doctrines, and his and my Father. :)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

your long winded language lesions ...

Now that 's a funny and accurate typo...

Christ is a Jew and Salvation is of the Jews....it has a lot to do with Israel more than you have appreciated in this thread.

Properly translated, salvation is out of the Judeans, i.e., the Judean branch called Jesus. The only thing Israel has to do with salvation is that they are fellow heirs of the promises. GOD is the husbandman who grafts all believers into the vine and tree of Israel, and gives each branch life.

Therefore, salvation is out of Judah, but is of GOD.

Zion is a literal place - you know this right?

Yes it's literally in heaven.

So by this you are saying the OT prophecy of God bringing his refined back to Zion is not only unfulfilled prophecy but that God never intended to do this in Israel?

That prophecy was written before the Babylonian captivity.

Israel was restored to the land afterwards, and Christ the great shepherd gathered his flock when he was here, and through his apostles and messengers from Pentecost until now.

 

[Purity]

1) Spirit is literal and I know of a certainty that likewise what you call "Armageddon" is real but not the way that you currently perceive it. 2) Not sure what you mean by "resurrected flesh nature". Put to death the "flesh nature" because if you do not he will kill you at Armageddon. 3) Absolutely not, however, "Israel" is not a location on a map but rather Israel is the man Jacob and his twelve sons. 4) Yeshua is seated on the throne of David now because the throne of David is my heart. It was a indescribably beautiful dawn in the morning that the Day Star rose up from the Anatole sun rising and sealed me forever, (by the way lightning does not flash all the way across the sky as far as the east is from the west but rather only the perfectly straight first rays of light from the morning dawn can do such a thing). 5) Have you not read that the first day beside the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as day one? Beware lest you be found a grumbler, complainer, or a murmurer, like the children of Israel which died off in the wilderness. What if your first visitation from the Lord has already occurred when you were first introduced to him and became a babe in the kingdom? The Lord appeared twice unto Solomon and "the Preacher" then wrote in the end that he knew what it was to live "a thousand years twice told".

Quote Purity]"There will be no displacing the Jews"[End quote.

Priests have absolutely no inheritance in any physical land whatsoever; likewise, in this world, we have no continuing city.

Quote Purity]"Have we taken part in the campaigns of Christ to subdue and humble the nations which will end with total subjection of all peoples?"[End quote.

In the doctrine of Yeshua there are seven heathen nations which are the seven mountains with their seven devil-kings:

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Those seven devils and their doctrines I rule with a Rod of Iron, which is Torah, which the Master has put into my hand by the Word of his doctrine which interprets Torah for me in the Gospel accounts. On the throne of my heart is the Son of man, on the throne over him is the Father, and as for myself I was made third ruler of my dominion in the night that Beldak was slain. All of the former kings of my land bow the knee to my Master, his doctrines, and his and my Father. :)

Daq.

I will carry this over to another thread as I value you investing the time to outline your beliefs.

In the Masters Service
Purity

Properly translated, salvation is out of the Judeans, i.e., the Judean branch called Jesus. The only thing Israel has to do with salvation is that they are fellow heirs of the promises. GOD is the husbandman who grafts all believers into the vine and tree of Israel, and gives each branch life.

Therefore, salvation is out of Judah, but is of GOD.

Yes salvation "comes from the Jews"
I wonder why that is?

Yes it's literally in heaven.

To mean you do not acknowledge a literal location on earth called Zion?

That prophecy was written before the Babylonian captivity.

Israel was restored to the land afterwards, and Christ the great shepherd gathered his flock when he was here, and through his apostles and messengers from Pentecost until now.

Your stubbornness reminds of Exo 13:13...but have no fear I will not break your neck :)

At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart. (Jer 3:17)

You have a number of problems with your interpretation.

When has the House of Israel and Judah called Jerusalem the throne of the Lord?
When have you seen both now or throughout history all nations gathered to it?
When has Israel to this day not walked in the imagination of their hearts?

In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. Jer 3:18

When has the house of Judah walked with the house of Israel both coming together out of the land of the north to a land that God had given them?

But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. (Jer 3:19)

When has Israel united called Yahweh Father and not turned away from him?

Are you by chance a NT only Christian? :)

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!

I like the Hebrew and Greek after all the Gospel wasn't written in English.

You're right! The Gospel WASN'T written in English. It was written first in Hebrew and then translated into the Greek.

I would LOVE to dwell together with other brothers and sisters in unity; however, I am not willing to sacrifice truth for the sake of unity. I will NOT compromise when it comes to God's Word.

 

[Purity]

Shalom, Purity.


You're right! The Gospel WASN'T written in English. It was written first in Hebrew and then translated into the Greek.

I would LOVE to dwell together with other brothers and sisters in unity; however, I am not willing to sacrifice truth for the sake of unity. I will NOT compromise when it comes to God's Word.

I agree but we do not lose sight of the glorious vision it instils in the hearts of those who lay hold of it.

Psa 133:1 = Thankfully we here were not given the task of bringing ark to Zion, uniting north and south; appointing a new high priest, Zadok, alongside Abiathar; a year of Jubilee (1Ch 12:38-40).

Believers here cannot even agree on defining Israel

Nevertheless we look to a future time as Jer 3:16

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. (Jer 3:16)

O that' s right Jeremiah chapter 3 has already been fulfilled.

Why do you think the Israelite will not remember the ark of the covenant in that day?

I love this forum!

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Purity.

I agree but we do not lose sight of the glorious vision it instils in the hearts of those who lay hold of it.

Psa 133:1 = Thankfully we here were not given the task of bringing ark to Zion, uniting north and south; appointing a new high priest, Zadok, alongside Abiathar; a year of Jubilee (1Ch 12:38-40).

Believers here cannot even agree on defining Israel

Nevertheless we look to a future time as Jer 3:16

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. (Jer 3:16)

O that' s right Jeremiah chapter 3 has already been fulfilled.

Why do you think the Israelite will not remember the ark of the covenant in that day?

I love this forum!

Purity

I'm not a generalist. I DON'T believe that everything in Jeremiah has already been fulfilled. There ARE certain portions of the prophecy that look far forward, even to the times that are yet in OUR future. While much of his prophecy was for HIS day - Yirmeyahu's mission was to the land of Y'hudah and the city of Yerushalayim to warn them and to record their failures when Nebuchadnezzar attacked the Land, killing many of them, sacked the Temple, and took the rest into captivity - not all of the prophecy is limited to that time period. When God communicates prophecy through His servants the prophets, He gives them visions not only of the near future but also of the distant future. God is not limited to time the way we are. That makes it difficult for us who study prophecy, but the challenge is not insurmountable.

The Isra'elis still remember the Ark of the Covenant today, and there are factions of the Temple Mount Project who desire to see it rebuilt, along with the restoration of the Temple. The KEY to Jer. 3:16 is in verses 17 and 18:


Jeremiah 3:17-18
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
KJV

These verses are NOT already fulfilled, but SHALL be fulfilled when the Messiah returns to the Land, for it is THEN that the habitation (Hebrew: sh'kinah) of ADONAI (YHWH) will have returned to Yerushalayim. It is THEN, when the Messiah sits upon the throne of David in Isra'el, that Jerusalem shall be called "the throne of the LORD" or "the throne of YHWH."

These verses are not figurative, representing something else, nor are they to be taken in some mystical, ethereal, "spiritual" sense (like the "supernal words" of Daq), having to do with the present. They are talking about the FUTURE when the Messiah Elohiym, the Anointed of God, LITERALLY AND BODILY REIGNS IN YERUSHALAYIM.

 

[Rex]

Rex, it is all rather messy is it not?

Simple question for you to answer to see if we both agree with Paul.

Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (Israel); David and the prophets and all those who believed and worship God in Spirit and in Truth are they not Israel after the flesh? and Israel of promise? Israelitish indeed!

They are Israelites, and to them (see above including Christ) belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

Purity

It amuses me to see you using the very thing I just said in the post right above this, as though it were something new. Didn't I just say? see bold below.

Look right above you, my reply to veteran, the quote from the last page I guess you just didn't read it did you?
Don't feel bad nether did Retro


There now my comment and giving credit to the Jews "of the PROMISE" is surrounding your inability to read what I posted.



I see now you edited your post to include
I explained that in your own interpretation of Romans 9:4
all we need to do is read Pauls interpretation of 9:4 and ignore yours.
Post 334 in case you missed it http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18010-the-proper-and-harmonious-interpretation-of-romans-1125-split-from-another-topic/page-12#entry203038

You disagree with Paul is that clear enough for you?

An Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin a "Jew" of both the flesh and the promise to Abraham

Not to mention testified to by the risen Lord Jesus and witnessed by Ananias, to bear the Lords name to both Gentiles and kings and children of Israel. Acts 9:15
It's not me you're in disagreement with.

You did the same thing with my reply to veteran, implying some thing I have just mentioned as though I didn't. Only that time it was an edit above my post so it looked as though you were being insightful, but in reality is was a contradiction of my position, that has never been a part of any statement I made, but was in fact exactly what veteran said. "God's Israel became Christ's Church" now he comes in today and completely ignors my reply and does a 180 on that statement in a reply to you.

p.s Note to Rex the Church has not replaced Israel but we have been grafted into their Olive Tree.

God's Israel became Christ's Church,

In essence there can be no such idea as 'Replacement Theology' based on what Apostle Paul showed with the "commonwealth of Israel" idea.

I'm glad to see you did a 180 from your statement yesterday veteran, to bad you base it on Purity's argument against Paul in Romans 9.
Paul makes it very clear that common wealth you speak of is for those of both the flesh and the promise, and the Gentiles also receiving the same.


So I would appreciate your not hijacking what I have just said Purity and posing as though you just introduced it into the topic.
It will be interesting to see what you do with the wiggle room "back door" you and veteran have implied for yourself "common wealth" to continue the separation of Jews and Gentiles. I'll be watching for your above post edits as well.

And maybe you "Purity" can take the time to post what it is you believe on the subject, instead of hijacking mine and disagreeing at the same time.

You did the same thing in post 335 with my clear position both above and below your remark, whats your game Purity? You continue to take what I have just said, and pretend I have a different opinion.

Christ is a Jew and Salvation is of the Jews....it has a lot to do with Israel more than you have appreciated in this thread.

Yet another statement concerning what I believe that is not true right in the middle of post where I make it very clear, even ending my post with
What does it all mean John 4:22-24

[SIZE=80%]22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know;[/SIZE][SIZE=80%]r[/SIZE] we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.[SIZE=80%]s[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]23 [/SIZE]Yet a time is coming and has now come[SIZE=80%]t[/SIZE] when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit[SIZE=80%]u[/SIZE] and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. [SIZE=80%]24 [/SIZE]God is spirit,[SIZE=80%]v[/SIZE] and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes salvation "comes from the Jews"
I wonder why that is?

The term is Judeans, i.e., specifically the tribe of Judah, and generally those who practiced the Judean religion or inhabited the land of Judah at that time.

Christ was talking with a Samaritan woman, a descendent of Jacob, who said the fathers of Israel said Mt Gerazim in Samaria was the place to worship (which the kingdom of Israel did), but the Judeans said Jerusalem was the place. Christ was teaching her via Jacob's prophecy (and other's) that the head ruler that would save Israel was to come forth from Judah, not Israel. That passage has nothing to do with Jew vs. gentile.

To mean you do not acknowledge a literal location on earth called Zion?

One existing at this moment? No. There is a place on earth that men now call Mt Zion, but they honestly don't know where the original Zion was.

When has the House of Israel and Judah called Jerusalem the throne of the Lord?
When have you seen both now or throughout history all nations gathered to it?
When has Israel to this day not walked in the imagination of their hearts?
When has the house of Judah walked with the house of Israel both coming together out of the land of the north to a land that God had given them?
When has Israel united called Yahweh Father and not turned away from him?

The questions you ask are answered in the faithful body of believers from Pentecost until the lord's return, and thereafter.

An Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin a "Jew" of both the flesh and the promise to Abraham

A point of clarity...

Paul, being of the tribe of Benjamin, considered himself to be a Judean because he had adopted the Judean religion (as opposed to the Samaritan religion) and lived in the land of Judea. After the unified kingdom of Israel was torn in two, Benjamin was always considered to be part of the kingdom of Judah.

At that time, Israel did not exist as a country or physical kingdom. From Paul's perspective at that time in the world, the two competing cultural bodies were the Greeks (Hellenism) and the Judeans (Judaism). That is why he called himself a Judean.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

This whole argument and misunderstanding comes down to this .....

The bible clearly says that the Gentiles partake in the promises given to Israel.

Trouble is some people take a giant leap and wrongly try to say the Gentile Christians have replaced Israel.


.

 

[Rex]

A point of clarity...

Paul, being of the tribe of Benjamin, considered himself to be a Judean because he had adopted the Judean religion (as opposed to the Samaritan religion) and lived in the land of Judea. After the unified kingdom of Israel was torn in two, Benjamin was always considered to be part of the kingdom of Judah.

At that time, Israel did not exist as a country or physical kingdom. From Paul's perspective at that time in the world, the two competing cultural bodies were the Greeks (Hellenism) and the Judeans (Judaism). That is why he called himself a Judean.

Thank you, i am well aware of the distinction of Israel, who went into captivity carrying the name and promise by way of Joesph and his sons.
And the prophesy spoken by Jacob to Judea

There are elementary foundations that need to be established before understanding can be found in the larger picture. Thats why I don't allow myself to be distracted with sister subjects though important have little or no bearing on the topic.
That is a great problem for people that believe Israel or the Jews how ever you would like to say the bloodline from Abraham will some how circumvent the basic foundation laid by Christ,and further explained by Paul, by faith we are through Jesus Christ, simply because they are Abraham's children, It is in contrast to the central message of the NT. I love John the Baptist he opens the NT with, and do not say unto yourselves we have Abraham as our father. What a great prophet. The door man introducing the salvation of the world. Now, just as then, some just aren't listening.

 

[daq]

This whole argument and misunderstanding comes down to this .....

The bible clearly says that the Gentiles partake in the promises given to Israel.

Trouble is some people take a giant leap and wrongly try to say the Gentile Christians have replaced Israel.


.

Now you appear to be getting closer to the real truth. But if you now understand that the Gentiles absolutely must be graffed into Israel, (rather than replacing Israel) then why do so many refuse to assimilate into the commonwealth and community body? It is because the natural man refuses to give up his own will, refuses to relinquish his own lifestyle which does not include any form of Torah observance, and refuses to forfeit his own interpretations which do not agree with the Rabbi Master-Teacher of the community. Basically it is a lack of understanding because of blinding pride and lack of repentance. One cannot remain his own "Rabbi" and at the same time claim to be following Rabbi Yeshua. :)

Daq.

I will carry this over to another thread as I value you investing the time to outline your beliefs.

In the Masters Service
Purity

Post the name of the thread and the forum here or PM me with the location so I know where to look. :)

 

[Dodo_David]

Uh, please pardon me if I am repeating something already said. I haven't read the 11 previous pages of this thread.
(Yes, I know that I made a rhyme. I do that all the time.)

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The last time that I checked, the English word "me" is singular.

In John 15:5 (NIV), Jesus says to his disciples, "I am the vine; you are the branches." The English word "I" is also singular.

It appears to me that everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, are to be grafted into Messiah Jesus.

 

[Purity]

The term is Judeans, i.e., specifically the tribe of Judah, and generally those who practiced the Judean religion or inhabited the land of Judah at that time.

Christ was talking with a Samaritan woman, a descendent of Jacob, who said the fathers of Israel said Mt Gerazim in Samaria was the place to worship (which the kingdom of Israel did), but the Judeans said Jerusalem was the place. Christ was teaching her via Jacob's prophecy (and other's) that the head ruler that would save Israel was to come forth from Judah, not Israel. That passage has nothing to do with Jew vs. gentile.

From strength to strength you go.

Judah is no longer Jewish and Judah is not Israel?

Have ye not read they shall become one Israel!

In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers. (Jer 3:18)

You teach the inheritance is divided?

One existing at this moment? No. There is a place on earth that men now call Mt Zion, but they honestly don't know where the original Zion was.

So you believe Zion is not an actual mountain?

The questions you ask are answered in the faithful body of believers from Pentecost until the lord's return, and thereafter.

You are persistent I will give you that much.

I think when a person like yourself has made up their mind about a certain matter its invariably impossible to shift the mindset. I detect in your answers an acknowledgment and inadequacy in being able to provide an answer to Jer 3. This is clear for all to see but where too from here?

If you cannot give an answer of the hope which is in you with meekness and fear, then I am to depart for a while, hoping for your humility to prompt you to reconsider Jer 3 as unfulfilled prophecy.

Only then can be lead toward truth.

BTW you didn't answer the question!

Why is it the house of Judah and Israel no longer seek for the ark of the covenant once they have been given the land as an inheritance? Why does it not even come into their minds?

Did I say how much I love this forum?

Purity

 

[daq]

Uh, please pardon me if I am repeating something already said. I haven't read the 11 previous pages of this thread.
(Yes, I know that I made a rhyme. I do that all the time.)

In John 14:6 (NIV), Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The last time that I checked, the English word "me" is singular.

In John 15:5 (NIV), Jesus says to his disciples, "I am the vine; you are the branches." The English word "I" is also singular.

It appears to me that everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, are to be grafted into Messiah Jesus.

Yes, we agree! Therefore a "Gentile" does not have to remain a Canaanite, or Moabite, or any other kind of beast that bites, and is free to join the commonwealth of Israel because the wall of partition which had kept separate the Canaanites, Moabites, and heathen, has now been taken down in Messiah. However, one must by faith be willing to become an Israelite according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV
21. Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

One does not get to bring his or her own doctrines into the community of faith in Messiah but must relinquish them at The Door. Otherwise The Door clearly states that he was not sent to that one. And as revealed in the above passage; even "worship" was not the point. The Canaanite woman of Tyre was eventually graffed into the sheepfold of Israel by faith. The RSV is even more clear with the emphatic statement which is made by the Rabbi-Master Yeshua himself:

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

This clear emphatic statement is a stumbling stone to any and all who reject it. It is therefore we, ourselves, which must be willing to change our own mindsets because Yeshua will not be changing his statement or mindset, ever. If one is not willing to become one of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", as the Canaanite woman from Tyre, and to become "a dog" sitting at the feet of the Master to receive "crumbs of truth-word-doctrine" from his table; then Yeshua clearly states that he was not sent to that one. :)

 

[Purity]

It amuses me to see you using the very thing I just said in the post right above this, as though it were something new. Didn't I just say? see bold below.

Are you seeking credit?

You did the same thing with my reply to veteran, implying some thing I have just mentioned as though I didn't. Only that time it was an edit above my post so it looked as though you were being insightful, but in reality is was a contrment in a reply to you.

You imply here my motives are insincere? Are we not all together trying to discover the truth? And yet you speak of camps being formed in this argument?

I'm glad to see you did a 180 from your statement yesterday veteran, to bad you base it on Purity's argument against Paul in Romans 9.
Paul makes it very clear that common wealth you speak of is for those of both the flesh and the promise, and the Gentiles also receiving the same.

Romans 9 is speaking to those Israelites according to the flesh (and promise).

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my (Jewish) brethren, my (Jewish) kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom 9:3-4)

Context is important Rex and here Paul is speaking to natural Israel or do you believe the wild branch is the same as the natural branches?

Surely you are able to see the branches are defined clearly by Paul? "For if God spared not the natural branches".

The remaining part of your post was empty accusations born out of your frustration - I understand.

I asked you the question which you have not answered.

Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (Israel); David and the prophets and all those who believed and worship God in Spirit and in Truth are they not Israel after the flesh? and Israel of promise? Israelitish indeed!

Not all Israel is Israel :)

Yes or No is sufficient.

Purity

Shalom, Purity.


I'm not a generalist. I DON'T believe that everything in Jeremiah has already been fulfilled. There ARE certain portions of the prophecy that look far forward, even to the times that are yet in OUR future. While much of his prophecy was for HIS day - Yirmeyahu's mission was to the land of Y'hudah and the city of Yerushalayim to warn them and to record their failures when Nebuchadnezzar attacked the Land, killing many of them, sacked the Temple, and took the rest into captivity - not all of the prophecy is limited to that time period. When God communicates prophecy through His servants the prophets, He gives them visions not only of the near future but also of the distant future. God is not limited to time the way we are. That makes it difficult for us who study prophecy, but the challenge is not insurmountable.

The Isra'elis still remember the Ark of the Covenant today, and there are factions of the Temple Mount Project who desire to see it rebuilt, along with the restoration of the Temple. The KEY to Jer. 3:16 is in verses 17 and 18:


Jeremiah 3:17-18
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
KJV

These verses are NOT already fulfilled, but SHALL be fulfilled when the Messiah returns to the Land, for it is THEN that the habitation (Hebrew: sh'kinah) of ADONAI (YHWH) will have returned to Yerushalayim. It is THEN, when the Messiah sits upon the throne of David in Isra'el, that Jerusalem shall be called "the throne of the LORD" or "the throne of YHWH."

These verses are not figurative, representing something else, nor are they to be taken in some mystical, ethereal, "spiritual" sense (like the "supernal words" of Daq), having to do with the present. They are talking about the FUTURE when the Messiah Elohiym, the Anointed of God, LITERALLY AND BODILY REIGNS IN YERUSHALAYIM.

Halleluiah - Praise ye the Lord Almighty in the Highest!

Someone who can speak the truth!

Our children (4) last night learned to recite Psalm 117 which exemplifies your above post.

Psa 117:1 Praise the LORD, all nations! Extol him, all peoples!

Psa 117:2 For great is his steadfast love toward us, and the faithfulness of the LORD endures forever. Praise the LORD!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Did I say how much I love this forum?

Because you're a game player, that's why. As I've said before, and I'll say it again. having a 'discussion' with you is a waste of time.

 

[Purity]

Because you're a game player, that's why. As I've said before, and I'll say it again. having a 'discussion' with you is a waste of time.

One final accusation before you bow out?

We have been here before CRFTD and you walked in similar manner.

Read and listen to these prophecies (Jer 2,3,4) and learn to ask the right questions of them and they will open to give you light.

One last time for good measure:

Jer 3:16

Why is it the house of Judah and the house of Israel no longer seek for the ark of the covenant once they have been given the land as an inheritance? Why does it not even come into their minds?

Why CRFTD?

 

[Dodo_David]

Yes, we agree! Therefore a "Gentile" does not have to remain a Canaanite, or Moabite, or any other kind of beast that bites, and is free to join the commonwealth of Israel because the wall of partition which had kept separate the Canaanites, Moabites, and heathen, has now been taken down in Messiah. However, one must by faith be willing to become an Israelite according to the doctrine of Yeshua:

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV
21. Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

One does not get to bring his or her own doctrines into the community of faith in Messiah but must relinquish them at The Door. Otherwise The Door clearly states that he was not sent to that one. And as revealed in the above passage; even "worship" was not the point. The Canaanite woman of Tyre was eventually graffed into the sheepfold of Israel by faith. The RSV is even more clear with the emphatic statement which is made by the Rabbi-Master Yeshua himself:

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

This clear emphatic statement is a stumbling stone to any and all who reject it. It is therefore we, ourselves, which must be willing to change our own mindsets because Yeshua will not be changing his statement or mindset, ever. If one is not willing to become one of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", as the Canaanite woman from Tyre, and to become "a dog" sitting at the feet of the Master to receive "crumbs of truth-word-doctrine" from his table; then Yeshua clearly states that he was not sent to that one. :)

In Acts chapter 15, the Apostles discussed whether or not Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be grafted into Messiah Jesus. The Apostles decided that Gentiles do not have to become Jews. Nowhere in the New Testament does Messiah Jesus say that Gentiles must become Israelites in order to be His followers.

As I said before, Gentiles don't have to be grafted into Israel. Instead, Gentiles have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus, just as Jews have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus.