The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Purity]

In Acts chapter 15, the Apostles discussed whether or not Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be grafted into Messiah Jesus. The Apostles decided that Gentiles do not have to become Jews. Nowhere in the New Testament does Messiah Jesus say that Gentiles must become Israelites in order to be His followers.

As I said before, Gentiles don't have to be grafted into Israel. Instead, Gentiles have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus, just as Jews have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus.

However Rom 9:4 is calling you.

Israel of God possess the following:

1. Adoption into the commonwealth of Israel (Gal 4:4,5)
2. The Glory of God on High (Exod 29:46, Isa 43:7)
3. ALL the covenants
(Gen 12:1-20; Gen 13:1-18; Gen 14:1-24; Gen 15:1-21; Gen 16:1-16; Gen 17:1-27; Gen 18:1-33; Gen 19:1-38; Gen 20:1-18; Gen 21:1-34; Gen 22:1-24) and Davidic (2Sa 7:1-29)
4. The giving of the Law of Moses (Exod 20:1-26)
5. The Worship of God on High (or the rites of the service) Psa 147:19
6. All the promises (Eph 2:12 - Exo 12:25 0 Acts 13:31,32 - The Messiah Acts 3:22 and the future hope Acts 26:6

Would you like me to define each of these as the Apostle Paul believed them to be?

Purity

p.s I should note regarding your Acts comment above - the Apostles protected the Gentiles from becoming Law abiding believers compared to those who live by faith and promise in Jesus Christ. Rom 9:6

And if this above was not sufficient we find once all sin and death is swallowed up and God dwells with man we find Israel of God covers the earth as was His plan from the beginning.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Rev 22:16)

He (Jesus) is the "root" of David because David's greatness stemmed from the divine purpose and promise to reveal Himself in a Redeemer (Isa 11:1; Isa 11:10). He is the "offspring" of David, inasmuch as he came in the line of David (Luk 1:32-33; Rom 1:3-4). See Rev 5:5. The word "Nazarene" which was applied to the Lord (Mat 2:23), is from the Hebrew netzer, denoting "sprout" or "shoot" as in Isa 11:1. The root of the Israel-oak is of such a nature, that though cut down, it will shoot again (Job 14:7-10). In that regard, it is significant that in context with Isa 11:1, the overthrow of the Assyrian Gog is likened to the felling of a cedar-forest (Isa 10:33-34). Unlike the oak, the cedar throws out no fresh suckers, and once cut down it dies. Not so the oak, which Isaiah gives as a figure of Israel (Isa 6:11,12,13), for it is a tree which after the felling a stock remains. There is a future, therefore, for Israel the oak, for the root shall continue to feed and to bear, and to produce a greater glory than it previously manifested.

This should end all arguments regarding the Israel tree!

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

One last time for good measure:
Jer 3:16
Why is it the house of Judah and the house of Israel no longer seek for the ark of the covenant once they have been given the land as an inheritance? Why does it not even come into their minds?
Why CRFTD?

For the same reason Jesus said this:

Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, that an hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. John 4:21

 

[Purity]

For the same reason Jesus said this:

Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, that an hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. John 4:21

You have not answered the question:

Why will Judah and Israel not bring to mind (in that future day) the ark of the covenant?

This is not difficult CRFTD

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You have not answered the question:
Why will Judah and Israel not bring to mind (in that future day) the ark of the covenant?
This is not difficult CRFTD

No it wasn't, but it is difficult dealing with a dense, obtuse individual...

 

[Purity]

No it wasn't, but it is difficult dealing with a dense, obtuse individual...

I do believe this would breach the rules of the forum in one way or another.

For those who have ears to hear the answer is rather simple.

The reason Israel no longer seek for the tabernacle or does it come to their minds is the true and living tabernacle is dwelling in their midst.

Heb 9:11,12,13,14,15 cp Jer 3:16

You couldn't ask could you CRFTD - it had to be the path of insults.

Purity

 

[Rex]

I do believe this would breach the rules of the forum in one way or another.

Many of us have seen the game before Purity, move the post forward and everyone forgets the embarrassing moments.

So now I want to play, why didn't you reply to my post? and provide your condensed thesis of the topic like I asked you?
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18010-the-proper-and-harmonious-interpretation-of-romans-1125-split-from-another-topic/page-12#entry203083

I also point out some of your other bad forum habits as well

 

[Purity]

Many of us have seen the game before Purity, move the post forward and everyone forgets the embarrassing moments.

So now I want to play, why didn't you reply to my post? and provide your condensed thesis of the topic like I asked you?
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18010-the-proper-and-harmonious-interpretation-of-romans-1125-split-from-another-topic/page-12#entry203083

I also point out some of your other bad forum habits as well

Rex, you see games but I see the art of asking the right questions to begin with and receiving a correct understanding, is the principle being employed. I appreciate this can become a little tedious at times but this does not detract from our need to seek the answers the Bible is waiting to provide. Bad forum habits - well I am not alone here am I? We all have them but rarely should they result in hurling insults at one another.

I feel the subject has been more than adequately explained in many of the posts (not just mine) but 361 is the end of the Book and the end of the matter in my humble view.

I will respond to your questions shortly.

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Abraham, Isaac & Jacob (Israel); David and the prophets and all those who believed and worship God in Spirit and in Truth are they not Israel after the flesh? and Israel of promise? Israelitish indeed!

They are Israelites, and to them (see above including Christ) belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

Hi Purity,

Paul was writing to the Israelites of his generation to whom 'the adoption' pertained.

None of the patriarchs will be 'adopted' (as sons). This is the meaning of the last two verses of Hebrews 11. However, Hebrews 9:15 does apply to those who died under the Mosaic covenant, although none of them had ever heard the name 'Jesus Christ'.

The beginning of Hebrews 3 establishes Moses as 'a servant'. This is the way to understand the OT 'believers'.


Regarding Zion, and Sion, Zion is the place on earth, and Sion is the place in heaven.


Have you noticed the subtle difference between Isaiah 59:20 and Paul's rendering in Romans 11:26? I see it as a crucial distinction which serves to divide between works of the law, and the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ. He did indeed OBTAIN salvation for us.


I believe Christ's burial was the planting of the Branch, into which planting we must be grafted in order to take part in His resurrection life. He is, therefore, the root (Purity) from which we receive 'fatness', no matter what our ethnic origin.

When Christ was 'cut off for sin but not His own', He was cut off from the whole nation of Israel. Turn that statement round, and you can easily see (I hope) that the whole nation of Israel was cut off from its Saviour, by His death. If all Israel died (in Christ) then there is no uncrucified Jewishness in Christ either. There is no Israelite or Jew, who through their own natural being, is fit for heaven, except they have been planted in His death.

But did they all receive that truth in Christ's day, or after? No.... Just like their forefathers, there were and are, those who prefer idolatry.


Regarding the association of Benjamin with Judah, if you check out the land and how it was apportioned, Benjamin from the start, was given to share Jerusalem with Judah. Therefore, Jerusalem has always been a city divided between its natural inhabitants (the Jebusites), Judah (praise) and Benjamin (son of the right hand).



Hi daq,

I am interested in your use of Rod of Iron in respect of Torah. Please could you say more about scripture from which you derive this meaning?

I have a different angle on 'rod of iron', but I can see in the Spirit that we are on the same page. My thoughts are this -

Psalm 2:8, 9 Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

that the rod of iron is the cross. It is the sceptre (sign of His authority) by which His status as 'the king' is confirmed to us. He submitted to Torah absolutely, and thus obtained the name which is above every name. It is by the cross that He rules in both power and authority, and those who refuse to be associated with His cross - submitting to it and being benefitted thereby - will be destroyed by His word. I'm sure you can explain this all, more clearly.

Another angle on 'iron', relates to the Roman era of Nebuchadnezzar's statue in which Christ was both born, and died. The paradox of the 'cross' (tau - marking the end and the beginning), and how through His death, death was abolished, all point towards 'the cross' as the ultimate symbol of His right to reign. Kiss the Son lest He be angry goes hand in hand with Blessed are all those who put their trust IN HIM.



Hi Arnie,

I am not bamboozled in any way that you suggest. It is wholly clear that if the descendant of David who is going to reign for ever, is Jesus Christ, then His reign has begun.

Do you know what He is reigning over? Are you being reigned over by Him, or is your eye on an earthly inheritance because of your ethnicity?

Do you know 'what' we 'worship'? Beware you have not made 'the land' into an idol. Remember, it could never be bought or sold, and those who have attempted to bargain with money to 'buy' it, just as those who have fought over it for possession so as to be able to 'sell' it, are both breaking God's word
Nay! God's LAW. (Remember what Paul taught Timothy? 'The law is for the lawless....' ) Why would a law-breaker expect to 'inherit' anything?

One of the problems with your doctrine, is its 'dual covenant' attributes.



Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

My understanding is the 'new covenant' was made between the Father and the Son, and we become partakers in it through faith in the Son, by whom we receive access to the Father, and through whom we become eligible to receive the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[daq]

In Acts chapter 15, the Apostles discussed whether or not Gentiles had to become Jews in order to be grafted into Messiah Jesus. The Apostles decided that Gentiles do not have to become Jews. Nowhere in the New Testament does Messiah Jesus say that Gentiles must become Israelites in order to be His followers.

As I said before, Gentiles don't have to be grafted into Israel. Instead, Gentiles have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus, just as Jews have to be grafted into Messiah Jesus.

Again ~

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

This clear emphatic statement is a stumbling stone to any and all who reject it. It is therefore we, ourselves, which must be willing to change our own mindsets because Yeshua will not be changing his statement or mindset, ever. If one is not willing to become one of the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", as the Canaanite woman from Tyre, and to become "a dog" sitting at the feet of the Master to receive "crumbs of truth-word-doctrine" from his table; then Yeshua clearly states that he was not sent to that one.

If you are not willing to become a lost sheep of the House of Israel then Yeshua clearly states that he was not sent to you.

Hi daq,

I am interested in your use of Rod of Iron in respect of Torah. Please could you say more about scripture from which you derive this meaning?

I have a different angle on 'rod of iron', but I can see in the Spirit that we are on the same page. My thoughts are this -

Psalm 2:8, 9 Ask of me,
and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

that the rod of iron is the cross. It is the sceptre (sign of His authority) by which His status as 'the king' is confirmed to us. He submitted to Torah absolutely, and thus obtained the name which is above every name. It is by the cross that He rules in both power and authority, and those who refuse to be associated with His cross - submitting to it and being benefitted thereby - will be destroyed by His word. I'm sure you can explain this all, more clearly.

Another angle on 'iron', relates to the Roman era of Nebuchadnezzar's statue in which Christ was both born, and died. The paradox of the 'cross' (tau - marking the end and the beginning), and how through His death, death was abolished, all point towards 'the cross' as the ultimate symbol of His right to reign. Kiss the Son lest He be angry goes hand in hand with Blessed are all those who put their trust IN HIM.

Ruling Seven Mountains with a Rod of Iron

 

[Purity]

Here's where you go of the track with your own interpretation of Romans 9:4

You simply don't continue to read what Paul says, which is very different than what your spreading even though it very flowery and sounds very nice it's not Paul's message is it?
I particularly like the way slid Eseu in as well.

Paul’s Anguish Over Israel
[SIZE=2em]9[/SIZE] I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying,[SIZE=80%]n[/SIZE] my conscience confirms[SIZE=80%]o[/SIZE] it through the Holy Spirit—[SIZE=80%]2 [/SIZE]I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. [SIZE=80%]3 [/SIZE]For I could wish that I myself[SIZE=80%]p[/SIZE] were cursed[SIZE=80%]q[/SIZE] and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people,[SIZE=80%]r[/SIZE] those of my own race,[SIZE=80%]s[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]4 [/SIZE]the people of Israel.[SIZE=80%]t[/SIZE] Theirs is the adoption to sonship;[SIZE=80%]u[/SIZE] theirs the divine glory,[SIZE=80%]v[/SIZE] the covenants,[SIZE=80%]w[/SIZE] the receiving of the law,[SIZE=80%]x[/SIZE] the temple worship[SIZE=80%]y[/SIZE] and the promises.[SIZE=80%]z[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]5 [/SIZE]Theirs are the patriarchs,[SIZE=80%]a[/SIZE] and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah,[SIZE=80%]b[/SIZE] who is God over all,[SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE] forever praised![SIZE=80%]a[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]d[/SIZE] Amen.
God’s Sovereign Choice
[SIZE=80%]6 [/SIZE]It is not as though God’s word[SIZE=80%]e[/SIZE] had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[SIZE=80%]f[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]7 [/SIZE]Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[SIZE=80%]b[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]g[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]8 [/SIZE]In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children,[SIZE=80%]h[/SIZE] but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.[SIZE=80%]i[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]9 [/SIZE]For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]j[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]10 [/SIZE]Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.[SIZE=80%]k[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]11 [/SIZE]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE]—in order that God’s purpose[SIZE=80%]m[/SIZE] in election might stand: [SIZE=80%]12 [/SIZE]not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[SIZE=80%]d[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]n[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]13 [/SIZE]Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[SIZE=80%]e[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]o[/SIZE]


Eseu is evidence Paul is using to show that Israel of the flesh is not Israel of the promise.
For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel

That's pretty plain isn't it?

The confusion appears to have started here with this post did it not? In hindsight I did not read it thoroughly enough.

Israel of the Flesh is not Israel of Promise as you correctly state while Israel of Promise is Israel of the flesh.

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Israel of the Flesh is not Israel of Promise as you correctly state while Israel of Promise is Israel of the flesh.

Hi Purity,


What?


Don't you see that all 'flesh' must die?



Hi daq,

Thank you.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

God’s Sovereign Choice
[SIZE=80%]6 [/SIZE]It is not as though God’s word[SIZE=80%]e[/SIZE] had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[SIZE=80%]f[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]7 [/SIZE]Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b [SIZE=80%]g[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]8 [/SIZE]In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children,[SIZE=80%]h[/SIZE] but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.[SIZE=80%]i[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]9 [/SIZE]For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c [SIZE=80%]j[/SIZE]
[SIZE=80%]10 [/SIZE]Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac.[SIZE=80%]k[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]11 [/SIZE]Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad[SIZE=80%]l[/SIZE]—in order that God’s purpose[SIZE=80%]m[/SIZE] in election might stand: [SIZE=80%]12 [/SIZE]not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d [SIZE=80%]n[/SIZE] [SIZE=80%]13 [/SIZE]Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e [SIZE=80%]o[/SIZE]


Eseu is evidence Paul is using to show that Israel of the flesh is not Israel of the promise.
For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel

That's pretty plain isn't it?

Yes Rex .... it is absolutely plain to me too .... except the topic in Romans 9 is about which children of Jacob-Israel would bring the promises to Nation-Israel ...... and the simple answer given in Romans 9 shows the child of Issac (thru Sara) would be the one

In other words the descendants of Jacob-Israel who are not the recipients are the kids via Rebecca , Hagar , etc ..... even though they are also literally descendants of Grandpa Jacob who God named Israel

Nearly everybody goes wrong at this point ..... when it says "not all Israel is Israel' ..... it really is saying "not all Jacob is Israel

The confusion arises because God changed Jacobs name to Israel

If it was written as "not all Jacob is Israel" these misunderstandings would never have begun in the first place.

And the biggest error is made by Christians who take it a step farther into error by claiming none of the descendants of Jacob-Israel are being referred to ..... they feel it is the Western Gentile Christian Church members who are true Israel.

Rex ..... I appreciate all the time you spend giving your answers .... thank you ..... if it means anything to you I dragged myself kicking and screaming to the realization God still has favorable prophecies to fulfill in Israel.

Just like you , I came from a mindset of "Salvation only through Christ" .... and to me , the unbelieving Jew in Israel was wasting his time on a long-dead religion .

Trouble is God still has them in His future plans ..... somehow he solves the problem .... I do not pretend to know how he Justifies removal of sins (without Christ as we know him) ...... but several times in the past (before Christ arrived) .... he cleansed Israel from sins ..... so we have to presume he could do it again.

It is like if we had a rich old relative who mentioned he would leave us all his money ...... but we could not stand the guy and avoided him and rejected his calls our whole life .

Then when the old guy dies his will is opened and he indeed fulfilled His promise.

At that moment we say holy crap ..... he really meant it ...... I wish I had befriended him years ago.

I think it will be something like that for Israel when they receive their inheritance

The rich old guy keeps his word in spite of the rejection of the recipient .


.

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity,

Paul was writing to the Israelites of his generation to whom 'the adoption' pertained.

That adoption today is as accessible today as it was then...though they are still veiled.

None of the patriarchs will be 'adopted' (as sons). This is the meaning of the last two verses of Hebrews 11. However, Hebrews 9:15 does apply to those who died under the Mosaic covenant, although none of them had ever heard the name 'Jesus Christ'.

The adoption is by the Spirit and therefore applies to all God's children.

Romans 8:15 - was this the same Spirit offered to Abraham? Gal 3:8?

The beginning of Hebrews 3 establishes Moses as 'a servant'. This is the way to understand the OT 'believers'.

Gen 6:2 applies

Regarding Zion, and Sion, Zion is the place on earth, and Sion is the place in heaven.

A mountain in Heaven?

Have you noticed the subtle difference between Isaiah 59:20 and Paul's rendering in Romans 11:26? I see it as a crucial distinction which serves to divide between works of the law, and the gift of faith in the finished work of Christ. He did indeed OBTAIN salvation for us.


I believe Christ's burial was the planting of the Branch, into which planting we must be grafted in order to take part in His resurrection life. He is, therefore, the root (Purity) from which we receive 'fatness', no matter what our ethnic origin.

When Christ was 'cut off for sin but not His own', He was cut off from the whole nation of Israel. Turn that statement round, and you can easily see (I hope) that the whole nation of Israel was cut off from its Saviour, by His death. If all Israel died (in Christ) then there is no uncrucified Jewishness in Christ either. There is no Israelite or Jew, who through their own natural being, is fit for heaven, except they have been planted in His death.

But did they all receive that truth in Christ's day, or after? No.... Just like their forefathers, there were and are, those who prefer idolatry.


Regarding the association of Benjamin with Judah, if you check out the land and how it was apportioned, Benjamin from the start, was given to share Jerusalem with Judah. Therefore, Jerusalem has always been a city divided between its natural inhabitants (the Jebusites), Judah (praise) and Benjamin (son of the right hand).

Thanks
Purity

Hi Purity,


What?


Don't you see that all 'flesh' must die?

Yes, of course, but a literal Jew who believed upon the promises of God and was sincere like David, were they not all of them natural Jews of the flesh? Of course the stranger in their midst did they not become a proselyte though too being of the flesh.

Its long been the way 1 Cor 15:46

But not all Israel is Israelitish indeed.

And the biggest error is made by Christians who take it a step farther into error by claiming none of the descendants of Jacob-Israel are being referred to ..... they feel it is the Western Gentile Christian Church members who are true Israel.

And those christians are in for an awakening.

 

[Rex]

Yes Rex .... it is absolutely plain to me too .... except the topic in Romans 9 is about which children of Jacob-Israel would bring the promises to Nation-Israel ...... and the simple answer given in Romans 9 shows the child of Issac (thru Sara) would be the one

In other words the descendants of Jacob-Israel who are not the recipients are the kids via Rebecca , Hagar , etc ..... even though they are also literally descendants of Grandpa Jacob who God named Israel

Nearly everybody goes wrong at this point ..... when it says "not all Israel is Israel' ..... it really is saying "not all Jacob is Israel

The confusion arises because God changed Jacobs name to Israel

If it was written as "not all Jacob is Israel" these misunderstandings would never have begun in the first place.

And the biggest error is made by Christians who take it a step farther into error by claiming none of the descendants of Jacob-Israel are being referred to ..... they feel it is the Western Gentile Christian Church members who are true Israel.

Rex ..... I appreciate all the time you spend giving your answers .... thank you ..... if it means anything to you I dragged myself kicking and screaming to the realization God still has favorable prophecies to fulfill in Israel.

Just like you , I came from a mindset of "Salvation only through Christ" .... and to me , the unbelieving Jew in Israel was wasting his time on a long-dead religion .

Trouble is God still has them in His future plans ..... somehow he solves the problem .... I do not pretend to know how he Justifies removal of sins (without Christ as we know him) ...... but several times in the past (before Christ arrived) .... he cleansed Israel from sins ..... so we have to presume he could do it again.

It is like if we had a rich old relative who mentioned he would leave us all his money ...... but we could not stand the guy and avoided him and rejected his calls our whole life .

Then when the old guy dies his will is opened and he indeed fulfilled His promise.

At that moment we say holy crap ..... he really meant it ...... I wish I had befriended him years ago.

I think it will be something like that for Israel when they receive their inheritance

The rich old guy keeps his word in spite of the rejection of the recipient .


.

Thanks for the nice reply Arnie.

What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated. The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram. Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say. We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16 , the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen 3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,, Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,, Gal 3:8

You may find that as you begin to realize the truth in this foundation, the Lord may change your opinion about the latter part of your post,
Walking in and understand what the Spirit is pointing towards can not be accomplished on a flawed foundation. I'm am very happy to here that you are looking more closely at your foot steps. The path is narrow and not well traveled, it's full of false signs, multiple intersections and dead ends, threw the years I've had to back up and look more closely as well. It's a wonderful adventure and the rewards are great. Proverbs 8:1-2

 

[Purity]

In relation to the later part of Romans 11:25 concerning the OP "The fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

Can we agree this is being accomplished during a period referred to as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luk 21:24)?

Also

In such time the Gospel has gone throughout Gentile lands Acts 13:46 ?

The process of Acts 15:14 & Eph 2:11-13 is drawing to and end and when that purpose is completed, and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", there will follow "the fulness of Israel" which will see that nation become "the first dominion" throughout the earth (Mic 4:8). Paul refers to this latter manifestation of divine goodness in Rom 11:12.

Do the forum members accept the above as truth?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

In relation to the later part of Romans 11:25 concerning the OP "The fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

Can we agree this is being accomplished during a period referred to as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luk 21:24)?

Also

In such time the Gospel has gone throughout Gentile lands Acts 13:46 ?

The process of Acts 15:14 & Eph 2:11-13 is drawing to and end and when that purpose is completed, and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", there will follow "the fulness of Israel" which will see that nation become "the first dominion" throughout the earth (Mic 4:8). Paul refers to this latter manifestation of divine goodness in Rom 11:12.

Do the forum members accept the above as truth?

Yes.... I accept the above as truth.

I find an abundance of similar favorable things for Israel scattered throughout the bible .... I just wonder why everybody else cannot see them ..... it is almost like a blindness they have ..... or simply an arrogance of thinking Israel is nothing and they themselves are everything.

One day in the future god removes the blindness from unbelieving Israel ....... in the meantime I hope he removes the blindness from the Gentile Christians who arrogantly dismiss Israel

 

[Purity]

Yes.... I accept the above as truth.

I find an abundance of similar favorable things for Israel scattered throughout the bible .... I just wonder why everybody else cannot see them ..... it is almost like a blindness they have ..... or simply an arrogance of thinking Israel is nothing and they themselves are everything.

One day in the future god removes the blindness from unbelieving Israel ....... in the meantime I hope he removes the blindness from the Gentile Christians who arrogantly dismiss Israel

Arnie

Well said.

I have had a touch of spiritual pride myself in contending with them...but needless to say the truth of the Gospel still shines on the Jew and Gentile alike as the rain falls of the just and unjust.

I have come to realise the state of the Pharisees upon the Masters first advent will be likened to the Gentile believers upon his second. It must be this way, that a hardening has come upon Christianity and so Romans 11 will need to be re taught to Christians - those who desire to become the shepherds of Jer 3:15.

Those who love the things of God's own heart.

I hope for them Israel is on their list of priorities.

Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Purity,

That adoption today is as accessible today as it was then...though they are still veiled.

The veil doesn't prevent them turning. In 2 Cor 3 Paul points out that they only have to turn to the Lord for the veil to fall away.

My main point was that there was no adoption for anyone before pentecost.


Do you understand that?



If, or when you do in light of Hebrews 9:15, you'll be able to understand why 'Israel of the flesh' can never apply to 'Israel of the promise' whichever historical side of the cross they lived, because of 'that WE might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith' in Galatians 3:14. Israel of the flesh becomes totally irrelevant to all who are in Christ. His Jewishness applies to all believers whether of the twelve tribes or not.

 

[daq]

In relation to the later part of Romans 11:25 concerning the OP "The fulness of the Gentiles be come in"

Can we agree this is being accomplished during a period referred to as "the times of the Gentiles" (Luk 21:24)?

Also

In such time the Gospel has gone throughout Gentile lands Acts 13:46 ?

The process of Acts 15:14 & Eph 2:11-13 is drawing to and end and when that purpose is completed, and "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in", there will follow "the fulness of Israel" which will see that nation become "the first dominion" throughout the earth (Mic 4:8). Paul refers to this latter manifestation of divine goodness in Rom 11:12.

Do the forum members accept the above as truth?

Like I already showed from the Scripture some three or four pages back in this thread: it is when "the fulness of the HEATHEN" have entered in. And when all seven kings have come then that one will know what it means to be "saved", (if indeed he overcomes in that hour) because there is nothing he can do to save himself but bow the knee to his Baal. But whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall lose it. There may even be some twice dead castaway fish right here in this forum for all we know. No joke.

 

[Purity]

Like I already showed from the Scripture some three or four pages back in this thread: it is when "the fulness of the HEATHEN" have entered in. And when all seven kings have come then that one will know what it means to be "saved", (if indeed he overcomes in that hour) because there is nothing he can do to save himself. Whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall lose it.

Fullness of the Heathen - fine
Seven Kings - Verse please?
In that hour - literal yes?
Luke 17:33 - Ok

I am not all that confident in your understanding of the natural branches post Christ's return.

Purity

Hi Purity,


The veil doesn't prevent them turning. In 2 Cor 3 Paul points out that they only have to turn to the Lord for the veil to fall away.

My main point was that there was no adoption for anyone before pentecost.


Do you understand that?



If, or when you do in light of Hebrews 9:15, you'll be able to understand why 'Israel of the flesh' can never apply to 'Israel of the promise' whichever historical side of the cross they lived, because of 'that WE might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith' in Galatians 3:14. Israel of the flesh becomes totally irrelevant to all who are in Christ. His Jewishness applies to all believers whether of the twelve tribes or not.

A very small minority of Jews have converted to the truth.

But collectively you are correct.