The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Purity]

It really is habitual with you isn't it? The first thing you do is distract by trying to find fault instead of addressing the issue.

I pointed out your need to win - an observation is all.

Now if you applied this energy to reading the prophecies concerning the Israel tree and her flourishing once again in the earth we wouldn't be have this meaningless dialogue would we?

Go back and read all your posts and show me where you have explained your understanding of these unfulfilled prophecies.

All His prophecies will be fulfilled in one manner or another.

Enter the Word.

Purity

No I don't agree, and right honestly it's one of the worst most veg explanations for what someones dose believe I've tried to decipher. I not so sure I completely understand the entirety of what you do believe, but just the same I disagree.

Did you read the Bible quotes and consider their context?

I see this as a calling for further explanation of God's plan with Israel which I will provide in due course.

And where is your thumbnail sketch of your position on salvation concerning Abraham's decedents and the nations you did say it was coming?

Surely by now the numerous posts concerning the Hope of Israel is made evident the means of salvation and the adoption and entering the commonwealth of Israel?

To be honest reading through your post and replies you move through scripture like a snake in the grass and most is only slightly touched on at best, you leave more questions than you provide answers.

Matt 10:16

Well more questions is not a bad outcome is it?

Luke 11:9

You're crafty I'll give you that. At times it appears you believe one thing then move the other direction, I see now why you appear to agree with me yet lead right back into error, just the same I'm sure in the end you believe Israel of the flesh to be a special nation inspite of my last post pointing out. [/b]

The problem in this discussion as I look back is quoting Scripture in context - if you are seeking a one definition fits all it will not be provided. That's why its essential we enter the book, chapter, verse and word to discover what is being taught.

I need not tell that which you already know.

Israel ---->> was a name given from heaven,

Correct.

it is not the line decedent from Jacob.

Incorrect.

So why don't you understand that born of flesh is flesh and that born from above is from heaven.

Because you seem to not understand that to be born from above one must be first born of
the flesh.

So how is it that this man born of the flesh named Jacob can through his flesh give birth to heavenly men named Israel?

Well again Rex you are trying to pigeon hole this discussion.

Come back with me to Gen 32:28.

Is this true?

We both agree this name change was an angelic statement from above, however the patriarch is still "called Jacob" in Gen 33:1; Gen 33:10; Gen 33:17-18 etc etc etc.

Is this truth?

Yes or No.

And if yes why is his name Jacob used in these passages?

The reason I am showing this to you is proving the need to be contextual studiers of the Word and not as some are guilty here of posting blanking statements over the entrie Holy Writ.

The OP in my view has been answered in this thread many times but do all agree?

Those who disagree are those who cannot open the Word, open their ears to the Word and reasoning upon divine things - they have been taught lies and accept them as truth.

Veg little statements and questions for answers, I'm beginning to see why you repeat what I say as though I didn't say it, then curel around the truth and lead people away.

This is not my intention though it appears to be your perception.

Another point from your book of questions, If Jacob called Israel did birth heavenly men why did they rebel through out the entire OT?

Again a question which is partly true and partly false - to generalise Israel and by saying "all Israel in fact is no Israel at all" is to ignore the inum merable people who did please God such as the patriarchs and those of low estate we know not.

I know this is not answering your question and please don't see it as playing games.

I could ask "Another point from your book of questions, If Christ gave birth to heavenly men why did they rebel through out the entire NT?"

All flesh is grass Rex all flesh is grass.

Purity

 

[Rex]

Say Purity here's a question, what does this Prophesy mean Matthew 3:9

Let me set the stage here
"I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist" Matthew 11:11 or born of women which ever flavor you prefer.

John speaking the prophesy
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;

I thought I would give you a little homework as well

Go back and read all your posts and show me where you have explained your understanding of these unfulfilled prophecies.

 

[Dodo_David]

It appears to me that this thread has gone off onto some kind of tangent. Go figure.

 

[Rex]

With a name like that? on a Christan forum?
And you're talking to us about being off track?
Go figure

Where's pee pee Peter?

 

[Purity]

Hi Rex,

I thought it wise to deal with your original OP

I have no idea what Romans 11:25 has to do with a temple but in the mean time here is something to think about

It doesn't - clearly this comment was made from a previous OP (should provide the link)

Some People can take one verse and re-translate the entire new testament and prophesy as well

Correct.

The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25

Romans 11: 20 says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Who are they? Paul says in verse 14, "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them whih are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Most of the Jews of Paul's time rejected Christ and they were broken off. Now Paul says in Romans 11: 25-26 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Who is "Israel" in verse 26?

Dispensationalists say in the Bible Israel must always be physical Israel, not some spiritual construct. Therefore by dispensationalist definition, Israel in verse 26 must be physical Israel and therefore Paul is predicting that at some time all physical Israel will be saved.

Correct - it must be physical Israel because it is Natural Israel to which the Chapter is speaking to - however within the Chapter he makes reference and certain warnings to those who by faith have become spiritual Israel.

This interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 20 that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief.

If all Israel is to be saved, then Israel here refers to Israel as being all of God's people who are saved, no matter what their race, Jew or Gentile. This interpretation is consistent with what Paul says in Romans 2: 28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Ok so now you have moved away from natural Jewry to defining a Spiritual Jew whether JEw nor Greek they are one in Christ Jesus.

29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

And this interpretation of Romans 11: 25-26 fits what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Odd I just quoted from that verse

But again you must be able to discern natural Israel from Spiritual Israel and the context of the Chapter, Verse and Word is essential in doing so.

For instance where it states the natural branch was broken off it must need means Natural Jewry - the Jew after the flesh without the Gospel of God

Paul is pointing out that after physical Israel was reborn, or the small remnant of physical Israel who were more faithful were translated into Christians as spiritual Israel race no longer matters in the eyes of God.

No Rex - Natural Israel will always matter to God because it is with them the covenant was made - He has a controversy with both Israel and the Nations. God leaves no stone unturned and certainly brings to account those in covenant with Him.

And remember what Paul also says in Galatians 4: 22-26, "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Rex, have you not read the blessings and future inheritance of Ishmael? How God has made provision for both natural Arab and natural Jew alike?

Do you think the son of the bondmaid is cast off forever?

Gen 17:20 cp Gal 4:22-31

"Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly"

These words must be considered literally, as applying to the Arab descendants of Ishmael, and allegorically, as applied by Paul to Israel after the flesh. The Arabs will obtain an honoured position in the Kingdom of God (Isa 60:6-7), but the "first dominion" will be granted to Israel after the flesh (Mic 4:8). In the blessings of Gen 17:19-20, therefore, there is promise to both the spiritual and the natural seeds of Abraham.

It can be no other way else you break the allegory and Pauls teaching in Romans 9 & 11.

23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Not only was race as a measure of acceptance by God done away with at the Cross, but the Cross opened up Christians to receive the Holy Spirit and operate in the Spirit. Operating in the Spirit, Christians are not in bondage to the old law of Mount Sinai. Christians are in Jerusalem which is free, not literal physical Jerusalem

So your conclusion is correct but literal Jerusalem stills has its place in future prophecy concerning the Israel tree.

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks for the comments about Zion and Sion.
So.... why do you think 'Sion' has been used by translators in Deu 4:48, and Psalm 65:1, if not to indicate something readers should ponder and note?

Deut 4:48 is a different word altogether. It truly is pronounced Sion (not tsion)

I don't know why the KJV has Sion in Psalm 65:1. It is actually Zion; also Zion in the LXX.

 

[Purity]

Say Purity here's a question, what does this Prophesy mean Matthew 3:9

Let me set the stage here
"I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist" Matthew 11:11 or born of women which ever flavor you prefer.

John speaking the prophesy
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;

I thought I would give you a little homework as well

“God is able of these stones” Luke 3:7-20

Context is that John was baptising at the “house of fords”. Also Here Joshua’s cairn of stones was rescued from Jordan’s muddy bottom Josh 4:7 where all children are rescued (in Christ Jesus who also entered the muddy river!) from which flesh nature we all share.

Who are the “Children unto Abraham?"

Surely they share Abraham’s rock like character as per Isa 51:1. Though a rock is lifeless, it can be full of character cp Deut 32:5,18 can it not?

You should also note the interchangeable terms of “Children of God .... Abraham’s sons” Gal 3:26,29 and they must enter the living corner stone if they desire to be built and hand placed up by God.

Thanks for the home work

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You seem to think that there were only 11 men of Isra'el that were grafted in! Are you so quickly forgetting the other of the 120 disciples? Are you so quickly forgetting the THOUSANDS, all Isra'elites, no matter from where on earth they were dispersed?

Christ cut the new covenant with only 11 men. The covenant is between them and GOD; they are the foundation. Anyone coming after them must be grafted into the covenant through faith to receive its blessings. This is the fulfillment of GOD's covenant with Abraham, which was not made with us, but we get to reap its blessings.

 

[Purity]

You do realise, don't you, that Abraham was never an Israelite or a Jew, yet the promise of Christ his descendant was given to him - before he was circumcised?

Abram is the father of Israel; Abraham, is the father of Jew and Gentile made one in Israel.

This is truth

 

[Rex]

Abram is the father of Israel; Abraham, is the father of Jew and Gentile made one in Israel.

This is truth

Thats a pretty face
But your still avoiding the truth that Israel "national" was never a part of the promise based on birth.
You say what you did but you still adulate between the two. You believe what I have said about the promise but then you go around the corner and add all the blood line as being saved.

“God is able of these stones” Luke 3:7-20

Context is that John was baptising at the “house of fords”. Also Here Joshua’s cairn of stones was rescued from Jordan’s muddy bottom Josh 4:7 where all children are rescued (in Christ Jesus who also entered the muddy river!) from which flesh nature we all share.

I can't make heads or tails out that. What does it have to do with my original question? And that your opening statement concerning the question below? In short it contradicts what John said the about the stones your referring to.

Say Purity here's a question, what does this Prophesy mean Matthew 3:9

Let me set the stage here
"I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist" Matthew 11:11 or born of women which ever flavor you prefer.

John speaking the prophesy
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;

I thought I would give you a little homework as well

Who are the “Children unto Abraham?"

Flesh or promise? I believe that Retro provided an OT list of both "flesh and Spirit"

Surely they share Abraham’s rock like character as per Isa 51:1. Though a rock is lifeless, it can be full of character cp Deut 32:5,18 can it not?

Christ is the Rock not Abraham, Abraham's character was faith Read Gen 22:1-19

You should also note the interchangeable terms of “Children of God .... Abraham’s sons” Gal 3:26,29 and they must enter the living corner stone if they desire to be built and hand placed up by God.

Bottom line is correct except the terms of "children of God" are not interchangeable. Gal 3:28

So where does this leave all of your prophet interpretation about Israel of the flesh being saved in the future by vertue of there birth?
That is how you understand the OP Romans 11:25 ?

Where is the evidence of your understanding and interpretation.
And please spare me the boring miss interpretation of the greater prophets about how being born of Abraham and Jacob equates to a free ticket into salvation, we get plenty of that around here.

John the baptist trumps all of your fanciful interpretations and makes very clear your wrong in your interpretation of Jer Isa Eze ect Matthew 11:11 and your rendering of Romans 11:25 believing it is referring to all the blood line. I can't make sense of the first part of your reply, it's muddier than the Jordan river bottom your talking about. Jesus said John TB was greater than Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David and all the prophets, don't you think what he says is of some importance.


Would you care to try again, I'll ask you straight out do you disagree with John? If you don't then why do you base your prophesy interpretations on who was born from Abraham? John clearly says It's of no value. Not to mention Paul

Say Purity here's a question, what does this Prophesy mean Matthew 3:9
Let me set the stage here
"I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist" Matthew 11:11 or born of women which ever flavor you prefer.

John speaking the prophesy
And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;And do not think to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father;

 

[Dodo_David]

I am still not certain what the argument is about. Anyway, I'd like to quote a few things that the Apostle Paul wrote about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. All quotes come from the NIV.

Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile."

Romans 2:9-11: "There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism."

So, Jews still have a special place in God's heart. They are the elder brother in the Messiah's parable of the prodigal son.

Romans 3:28-30: "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith."

Romans 10:12-13: "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”"

Then there is what Paul says in the 2nd chapter of Ephesians. The entire chapter deals with the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. Here is an excerpt:

[SIZE=.75em]11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise,without hope and without God in the world.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, [SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, [SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

 

[daq]

They both ignored the message and focused on the crumb I opened with, "in reguards to Retros comment to CRFTD".

I See you picked up on the John 3:6 quote I mentioned in pointing out that nether Abraham nor Jacob can possibly birth Gods Spirit, Blessing, Promise, Salvation ect ect ect. Another way to say it is Abraham and Jacob can not give birth to the promise they received from God, unless your teaching the same thing Catholics do.
Of course we know where that leaves the blood line. They also didn't comment about the seed, it is nothing new it's the first promise in the bible, Gen 3:15 KJV applying it to a group of people is nothing but vain selfish pride at its finest.

let me ask Purity, say Purity is the seed spoken of in Gen 3:15 the nation of Israel? :huh:

Next time someone quotes Revelation 22:16 first make sure you know what it really means and then ask the one who quoted the passage what it means in his or her understanding. The answer will tell you whether that one walks according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Rhiza-Root is likewise employed twice in Romans 11:18 and "genos", (which comes from "ginomai") does not necessarily mean "offspring" depending upon the perspective of the hearer.

------------------------------

By the way, Purity, "Nazarene" comes not from "netzer" but rather "nazar" which means "set apart", (the northern Essene Way).

 

[Purity]

So where does this leave all of your prophet interpretation about Israel of the flesh being saved in the future by vertue of there birth?

That is how you understand the OP Romans 11:25 ?

Powerful word that "until" isn't it?

"UNTIL" I hear you say "yes Purity very important!" as it's limiting the time of natural Israel's alienation from God.

Is it not?

Well lets explore this little word together concerning the restoration of Israel not because of the fleshly birth but because of the covenant they are still accountable to till this day but more so the new one which will be etched into their hearts.

Please Rex read the context of each verse as I havnt the time to explain each of them to you:

Rom 11:25 - looking at the use of the word "until"

Context = Restoration

The restoration of the Davidic throne: Eze 21:27.
The restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control Luk 21:24.
The restoration of the nation and theocracy to Israel Acts 3:21.
The restoration of Israel's spiritual understanding Rom 11:25-26.
The restoration of the house of worship for Israel: Luk 13:35.

Where is the evidence of your understanding and interpretation.

Seriously Rex - many posts have provided you the evidence, but I sense from you comments about the Jews "getting a free ride" that we are beginning to see your true motives.

Take me to anyone of my posts where I have taught the Jews will ever or have ever got a free ride as you put it?

Just one!

And please spare me the boring miss interpretation of the greater prophets about how being born of Abraham and Jacob equates to a free ticket into salvation, we get plenty of that around here.

Sorry - correction "free ticket"

John the baptist trumps all of your fanciful interpretations and makes very clear your wrong in your interpretation of Jer Isa Eze ect Matthew 11:11 and your rendering of Romans 11:25 believing it is referring to all the blood line. I can't make sense of the first part of your reply, it's muddier than the Jordan river bottom your talking about. Jesus said John TB was greater than Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David and all the prophets, don't you think what he says is of some importance.

Yes JTB was greatest prophet...but do you know why?

By the way, Purity, "Nazarene" comes not from "netzer" but rather "nazar" which means "set apart", (the northern Essene Way).[/font]

I am pleased I have one so skilled in the Essene way testing my transliteration.

In this instance did it change the lesson at all?

 

[Rex]

What I see is you're cut from the same cloth some other members here are, most notably the prophesy interpreters.

The restoration of the Davidic throne: Eze 21:27.
The restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control Luk 21:24.
The restoration of the nation and theocracy to Israel Acts 3:21.
The restoration of Israel's spiritual understanding Rom 11:25-26.
The restoration of the house of worship for Israel: Luk 13:35.


Seriously Rex - many posts have provided you the evidence, but I sense from you comments about the Jews "getting a free ride" that we are beginning to see your true motives.

Take me to anyone of my posts where I have taught the Jews will ever or have ever got a free ride as you put it?

Just one!

That was my point, earlier when I asked you for a thumbnail sketch of your understanding, you said it's coming but it never did. did it?

What you do is just as you have done here, you imply, and let the work of 1000's of false prophets teaching in the churches today take it's effect.

So tell me what happens after the fulness of the Gentiles?

Most all of the prophesy interpreters here forget the basic fundamentals of salvation, instead they interpret prophesy that contradicts Christianity 101.
Here's a case in point Rev 12 http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18632-fleeing-into-the-wilderness-its-true-meaning/#entry203310
They like yourself, let the interpretation dictate and over ride the basics, you and many other do it with Romans 11:25

 

[Purity]

What I see is you're cut from the same cloth some other members here are, most notably the prophesy interpreters.

Do you not interpret prophecy?

Clearly the Scripture or more particularly the word "until" has spoken to you else you would not have asked the question.

That was my point, earlier when I asked you for a thumbnail sketch of your understanding, you said it's coming but it never did. did it?

Yes you are right while I have placed numerous passages answering to the Hope of Israel I have not laid it out as the Scripture's do so clearly for us.

What you do is just as you have done here, you imply, and let the work of 1000's of false prophets teaching in the churches today take it's effect.

So tell me what happens after the fulness of the Gentiles?

Good question;

At the heart of it you are asking me what is "The Hope of Israel" to which Paul was chained. Acts 28:20

1 The Salvation proclaimed throughout the Bible is for the acceptance and belief in a saving powerful Gospel which is Jewish in origin (Mat 15:24; John 4:22; Acts 11:19; Acts 26:6; Acts 26:7; Rom 9:3-4).

And as we have determined numerous times this hope is defined as "the hope of Israel" in Acts 28:20.

2 The entrance for the Gentile was unexpected and called a mystery of the gospel (Eph 3:5-6), however, sadly, many here believe this invitation to their spiritual things destroyed the Israelitish character of that one hope. The truth and substance of the one hope, one faith and one baptism for the believing Gentile here is to allow the Word (including the many prophecies) to be conformed to the Israelitishness of the hope (Rom 2:29 & Eph 2:12 also Eph 2:19). Over and over in this thread we have proven that the Gentile branches being a "wild" olive tree were grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Rom11:24). We (Gentiles) must cast off "the old man" of their Gentile ways and put on "the new man" of true Jewism which is really putting on Christ (Col 3:9-10).

3. If we take CRFTD who said "salvation is out of Judah" or as the record expresses "Salvation is of the Jews", whatever you or I perceive Judah or Jew to be, Christ is the express character of Judah in its perfection.

4 Now Abraham is the father of the Jews, and he was promised a land of Israel and in its fullness in Christ the whole earth. To his descendants was given the Divine covenant Romans 9:4.
However, we have discussed their failure to meet the terms of this national covenant and so they were sent into exile throughout nations.

It is here the most Christians put up their defensive doctrines and say they have no further part in the purpose of God other than that they by some means convert to Christianity.

What are the facts?

5 God chose Israel above all other nations

-Lev 20:26
-Deut 7:6
-Deut 14:2
-Deut 26:18-19

Rex and everyone in this forum would all agree that the Jew cannot change what God's has decreed, even by their sins (Rom 11:29).
We all would agree they have all been put through the fire of God's wrath and for punishment as children (Amos 3:2).
We would also agree that God cannot (because of His Word) "make a full end" of Israel, even though He of all other nations where they have been scattered, but He will "correct them in measure" (Jer 30:11).

As Paul intimated "they have not been cast off" or will they be totally rejected (Jer 3:24-26; Mic 4:11-12; Rom 11:2).

Their good is promised

-Jer 32:42
-Jer 33:14-16
-Eze 37:22
-Jer 31:28

Getting to your question...there is "something" still to come for Israel.

a. A full regathering must take place in order for God to complete His dealings with Isreal. It's not simply about a fulfilling of the natural aspects of the promises but a restoration of relationship based on a better covenant.

-Jer 3:17-18
-Jer 31:10
-Eze 36:24
-Eze 37:21

Israel must for His sake be a praise in the earth

-Zep 3:19
-Zep 3:20
-Zec 8:23

And the Nations will be made subject to them

-Isa 60:3
-Isa 60:10-12
-Isa 60:14-15

All of their enemies which hate them today and represented throughout time will be destroyed.

-Isa 41:11-12
-Isa 49:25-26
-Mic 7:16-17

Now God gathering of them has no relationship with them being morally accountable to God at all as per Eze 36:22 & Eze 36:32. If they are to enter the Land as an inheritance it will be after they have been utterly purged with a proving fire in "the wilderness of the people" Isa 60:21, Eze 20:34-38, Eze 36:31

So it is as you say Rex the natural Jew are God's chosen people only in a national sense.

In regards to salvation it can only be through Christ, they are equal terms with us the Gentiles.

I will leave it there and provide part two in due course.

Purity

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi RB,


If this is the case, why does Strong's state that Israel means 'God prevails'? In the context of Peniel, Strong makes good sense.


This is the mistake you have been making all along in your reckoning. You are not correctly computing the meaning of Jesus being in the grave. He was cut off from the entire house of Israel, including all those who had been watching for Messiah, like Andrew, Peter and John (to name but three).

Do you remember how they behaved when He was arrested? How Peter denied Him??? They were 'lopped off' all right, albeit for a very short time. Nevertheless, this is exactly what Jesus had talked to them about when He was preparing them for both His death and His ascension.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you... . 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


It is Jesus Christ who was planted in the ground - the Branch. It is into Him that every believer - regardless of ethnicity - must be grafted if they are to be counted dead with Him, and risen with Him as Paul defines in Romans 6.

Paul goes on to say that while his kinsmen in the flesh, of Israel (the one over whom God prevailed) have not experienced 'the adoption' (of sons), they are still going about to establish their own righteousness. Which means that they couldn't have any of God's righteousness. (Lopped off; see?)


The other point I'd like to bring to your attention, is that Paul says he can do all things through Christ who strengthens Him. Another way of understanding that, is that the victorious Messiah was already reigning in his life. He was not waiting for an external kingdom, although that will come.

Furthermore, whoever wrote Hebrews declares that Abraham 'got it', and then Moses 'got it'. They understood both the cost, and the fact that their course was set for a kingdom and a city which God was making, not man (not even the family from whom Messiah was revealed to the world).

...

Strong's says...


OT:3478 Yisra'el (yis-raw-ale'); from OT:8280 and OT:410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity: -Israel.

OT:8280 sarah (saw-raw'); a primitive root; to prevail:
KJV - have power (as a prince).

OT:410 'el (ale); shortened from OT:352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):
KJV - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The Hebrew word for "prince" is "sar."


OT:8269 sar (sar); from OT:8323; a head person (of any rank or class):
KJV - captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-taskmaster, prince (-ipal), ruler, steward.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Just as the Messiah was called "Sar Shalom," or "Prince of Peace," in Isaiah 9:6. Both "Sar" and "Sarah" come from this same Hebrew root word (OT:8280); "Sarah" means "princess," the feminine form of "Sar."

Secondly, Yeshua` was NOT preparing them for His death in John 14:25; He was indeed preparing them for His absence after He ascended to the sky. He was promising them that He would return, not in "spirit" but in REALITY and BODILY!

Thirdly, sorry, wrong kind of Branch! There are two different words that were translated as "Branch" in the Tanakh (the OT): The first is tsemach meaning a "sucker" branch of a tree. The second is neetser, meaning a "green shoot." Neither of these branches are "planted in the ground!" The second may be grafted into a tree by cutting the bark and matching up the zylem and the phloem lines as best as one can, and binding it to the trunk with lashes. The first one grows INVOLUNTARILY out of the root of the tree. No, wrong analogy.

Fourthly, if you think that Yeshua` was talking about the victory that the Messiah has in our lives in Ephesians 4:30, YOU AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN', YET!

Shalom, Daq.

Next time someone quotes Revelation 22:16 first make sure you know what it really means and then ask the one who quoted the passage what it means in his or her understanding. The answer will tell you whether that one walks according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Rhiza-Root is likewise employed twice in Romans 11:18 and "genos", (which comes from "ginomai") does not necessarily mean "offspring" depending upon the perspective of the hearer.

------------------------------

By the way, Purity, "Nazarene" comes not from "netzer" but rather "nazar" which means "set apart", (the northern Essene Way).

Oh, go on! Yeshua` wasn't a Nazariy; He didn't have His hair growing long (despite the way He's been painted) nor was He to refrain from wine or strong drink. He was the BRANCH! The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!

 

[Rex]

Thats a lot of smoke and your still teaching by proxy,
Not to mention that someone that likes to "teach" using questions, is completely unable to answer one.

Who hasn't read those verse's the question was, whats your interpretation


I never said this and you know it [see 2 below,] If you don't then communication is impossible and don't bother with the 2nd reply to me.

Getting to your question...there is "something" still to come for Israel. My question "So tell me what happens after the fulness of the Gentiles?" I don't see anything explaining your understanding of all the verse you posted reguarding my question, every verse is open to interpretation, what you have provided is nothing more that a heading.

2 So it is as you say Rex the natural Jew are God's chosen people only in a national sense.



I will leave it there and provide part two in due course.

Purity

But what is clear Purity you like many other interpret Israel as being everyone born of Abraham.
Unless you don't believe the bible I have more than made the case that it isn't true.

What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated. The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram. Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say. We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16, the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen 3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,,Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,Gal 3:8

 

[Purity]

Thats a lot of smoke and your still teaching by proxy,

Plain old Bible truth Rex!

Not to mention that someone that likes to "teach" using questions, is completely unable to answer one.

Maybe it wasn't answered to your liking?

Truth can hurt in more ways the one...

Who hasn't read those verse's the question was, whats your interpretation

I placed them in a neat order with a very small fact to allow them to be more easily understood.

I never said this and you know it [see 2 below,] If you don't then communication is impossible and don't bother with the 2nd reply to me.

Looks like I am "bothering" you once again

But what is clear Purity you like many other interpret Israel as being everyone born of Abraham.

I think it would generally be accepted as a fact that a Jew who could prove their Jewishness is a natural son of Abraham.

Now whether they have the faith of Abraham is another matter is it not?

Rom 4:12
Gal 3:8
Heb 11:8
Heb 11:17

Unless you don't believe the bible I have more than made the case that it isn't true.

Clearly I believe the Bible.

Your case has not been made.

What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated.

Yes

The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram.

Yes - I am saying their are more natural Jews (branches) to be grafted into the Israel Tree - by promise.

Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say.

Yes I do!

We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16, the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen 3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,,Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,Gal 3:8

If you read over your post you will find your vision (spiritual) does not look forward to when Christ's return when he deals with Jacob.

Take me to the prophecies previously posted and provide those things which are yet to come to pass with Israel.

Thank you
Purity

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Rex,

The mixture of Old Covenant and New Covenant being put forward by some of the brethren here, is known as 'dual covenant theology'.

This includes the idea that all of Jacob's descendants will be saved because of their natural descent, regardless of whether they obeyed the law.



Of course, there are many variations.

 

[Purity]

This includes the idea that all of Jacob's descendants will be saved because of their natural descent, regardless of whether they obeyed the law.

Yes I agree this teaching finds no basis in the Scriptures.

It would be like a modern day Christian teaching all gentiles believers will be saved

Purity