The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[daq]

Hi Rex,

The mixture of Old Covenant and New Covenant being put forward by some of the brethren here, is known as 'dual covenant theology'.

This includes the idea that all of Jacob's descendants will be saved because of their natural descent, regardless of whether they obeyed the law.



Of course, there are many variations.

Some partake of all the covenants in Messiah, (not just the primary and better known covenants) even the Covenant of the Cup.
If my old wine is mixed with the fresh water of Cana, (two or three firkins in each stone cistern of the heart) then the old is better.
Likewise no man having tasted of the aged wine straightway desires the new wine; for he says, the old is better!

Shalom, Daq.


Oh, go on! Yeshua` wasn't a Nazariy; He didn't have His hair growing long (despite the way He's been painted) nor was He to refrain from wine or strong drink. He was the BRANCH! The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!

Funny how those who make this statement never have any Scripture to back up what they say.
They rather beat their chests and proclaim to be true what in reality they fear inside not be the case.
However, I must admit, never have I heard another disciple refer to the Master as a "sucker" . . . :huh:

Yeshua is the Vine and we are the ones receiving nourishment by clinging to the Vine.

 

[Purity]

However, I must admit, never have I heard another disciple refer to the Master as a "sucker" . . . :huh:

Surely Daq you have heard of the process of grafting? Rom 6:5KJV

 

[daq]

Surely Daq you have heard of the process of grafting? Rom 6:5KJV

Yes and so we must cut away from our old "father" and cleave unto our heavenly Father. Yeshua has revealed to us how to accomplish this through his Testimony if only we will abide in it and him, (and the Father spoke through him reconciling the world unto himself). Yeshua says "I am the RHIZA-ROOT" but Retrobyter says Yeshua is "The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!" The two of you can believe whatever you want but I will believe the Testimony of Yeshua.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Daq.

Yes and so we must cut away from our old "father" and cleave unto our heavenly Father. Yeshua has revealed to us how to accomplish this through his Testimony if only we will abide in it and him, (and the Father spoke through him reconciling the world unto himself). Yeshua says "I am the RHIZA-ROOT" but Retrobyter says Yeshua is "The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!" The two of you can believe whatever you want but I will believe the Testimony of Yeshua.

Have you never read...

Isaiah 11:1-7
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew: v-neetser) shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
KJV

Isaiah 60:18-22
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch (Hebrew: neetser) of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
KJV

It may seem a little strange (and perhaps a little too irreverent for some, because of other definitions for the word), but I am referring to the definition for "sucker" as given in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary:

sucker
...
8. a shoot rising from an underground stem or root.

This matches His description in Isaiah 11:1.

 

[Rex]

Yes - I am saying their are more natural Jews (branches) to be grafted into the Israel Tree - by promise.

Would you care to explain how the NT teaches salvation for anyone simply because it was promised to them?
No faith no believing in Jesus just based on a promise, I'm all ears.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Would you care to explain how the NT teaches salvation for anyone simply because it was promised to them?
No faith no believing in Jesus just based on a promise, I'm all ears.

The NT teaches forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ ..... the unbelieving Jews did not receive this forgiveness ..... they have been punished for their sins .... probably more than any other people on earth ..... and they have survived as a people

So if salvation was promised to them in the OT .... it could still happen without violating anything in the NT

You are mistaken if you think we are trying to "automatically apply" Jesus' forgiveness upon all Israel .

We are not .... never have

 

[dragonfly]

Hi RB,

Thanks for the explanation.

He was the BRANCH! The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!

You seem to be forgetting (again) that He was totally cut off (from the tree) in death.

Then, He was miraculously resurrected into (eternal) life, again. It is into the resurrected Christ that believers are grafted. It is a new tree.



Hi Purity,

It would be like a modern day Christian teaching all gentiles believers will be saved

But 'all Gentile believers will be saved', whereas all natural descendants of Abraham will not. So what was the winkie face for?
Hi Arnie,

and they have survived as a people

So has many an unbelieving Gentile, to whom God promised a Saviour when He spoke to Eve in Gen 3:15.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi RB,

Thanks for the explanation.


You seem to be forgetting (again) that He was totally cut off (from the tree) in death.

Then, He was miraculously resurrected into (eternal) life, again. It is into the resurrected Christ that believers are grafted. It is a new tree.

...

Not forgetting, discounting. I do not believe that He was "totally cut off from the tree in death." To the contrary, His death provided the means by which the New Covenant WITH ISRA'EL and WITH Y'HUDAH could be instated! It was still HIS body that was raised from the dead; the body that was given birth by Miryam (Mary) was the SAME BODY (with modifications) of which He told His disciples:


Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

While it is true that His resurrected body was now invincible, incorruptible, and immortal, it was still HIS BODY! The marks in His body - in His hands, His feet, His side - were PROOF that it was the same body with the same genetic code! It wasn't His death that was so important; EVERYBODY dies! It was His RESURRECTION that was different and exceeded expectations! It's not a new tree; it's another BRANCH to the same tree!

The problem I see is that most Christians are overly given to analogy. This analogy is different than the vine analogy. It is different than the fig tree analogy. It is different than the axe laid to the root analogy that John the Baptist made. We cannot be so given to analogy that we somehow confuse all these analogies into one! They were never meant to be considered as one, and it is an error to try to merge them.

By the way, when Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) said,...


Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV

He was speaking to them as a group, but he was referring to each of them individually:


Luke 3:1-18
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.
KJV

He was not using the same analogy, because in John's analogy there are MULTIPLE trees, such that each person is a tree! He was NOT using a single tree to represent the nation or a group of people. LEAVE EACH ANALOGY IN ITS OWN CONTEXT and DON'T try to MIX them!

 

[Rex]

The NT teaches forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ ..... the unbelieving Jews did not receive this forgiveness ..... they have been punished for their sins .... probably more than any other people on earth ..... and they have survived as a people

So if salvation was promised to them in the OT .... it could still happen without violating anything in the NT

You are mistaken if you think we are trying to "automatically apply" Jesus' forgiveness upon all Israel .

We are not .... never have

Thats what my point is Arnie, but many of these people believe that it's some sort of promise that applies to the blood line as a whole.

It's the word Israel, most apply it to the nation as a whole in every case, and never consider what the name meant, who it was given to and why, they simply see the word Israel and say that means all the children of Abraham. It was a name given to Jacob at the time he received the promise. By proxy it is applied to all of his children but the promise of salvation isn't, the promise of salvation pointed to the seed, which is one. Gal 3:16 I notice that Purity said that applying it to all gentiles is foolish, I agree, it's equally foolish to apply it to all Israel as a whole. It that were true then salvation is guaranteed by right of birth instead of by faith. Abraham was circumcised, and Jacob wrestled with the Lord. Then their names were changed. It wasn't automatic was it. I required something from both of them didn't it. The covenant was that God promised to be there God to him and his decedents, that doesn't mean they are automatically saved by the promised seed who is Christ. Instead it means that God is going to complete his plan of salvation through the line of Abraham. And those that believe by faith in the old and new testaments will receive the promise of the "seed"

The promise as it's been pointed out numerous times is Christ, it's the applying of the name given to Jacob, Israel, and in every instance of scripture interpreting as meaning Jacobs children is where the errors are made. And then all Israel shall be saved, it's not speaking of the nation but those in Christ both Jew and Gentile.
Jesus is Israel and those that are in Him are Israel of salvation of which all the Prophets spoke of, this Israel includes both Jew and Gentile.

At the time of Jesus the people of Israel didn't realize this ether that's what was hidden until the sacrifice of Christ was complete, Everyone simply believe Israel was guaranteed salvation by right of birth but John TB opens Mathew with a warning to the nation this is not true.

The name
What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated. The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram. Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say. We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16 , the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen 3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,, Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,, Gal 3:8

John 3:6
why flesh can not give birth to the Spirit "promise"
Israel ---->> was a name given from heaven, it is not the line decedent from Jacob. So why don't you understand that born of flesh is flesh and that born from above is from heaven. So how is it that this man born of the flesh named Jacob can through his flesh give birth to heavenly men named Israel?
Jesus is talking to Nicodemus a son of Abraham, yet Jesus tells him he needs to receive the promise doesn't he? What does that say why it's in complete agreement with John and do not seek to say to yourselves we have Abraham as our father.

When Paul is speaking about all Israel in Romans 11:26 he's speaking about the inclusion of the Gentiles period, who were to receive the promise after it was delivered to the Jews Gal 3:6 He's not making a case for some future blessing He still owes Israel as a nation. It was delivered right on time in Jesus.

Yes there is still a future for Israel but it's not speaking exclusively of the nation it's speaking to the true Israel being both Jew and gentile.

 

[veteran]

The problem I see is that most Christians are overly given to analogy. This analogy is different than the vine analogy. It is different than the fig tree analogy. It is different than the axe laid to the root analogy that John the Baptist made. We cannot be so given to analogy that we somehow confuse all these analogies into one! They were never meant to be considered as one, and it is an error to try to merge them.

Now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black!!!


The cutting down of the unfruitful tree cast into the fire extends to this...

John 8:33-59
33 They answered Him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest Thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because My word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with My Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill Me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to Him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do ye not understand My speech? even because ye cannot hear My word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe Me not.
46 Which of you convinceth Me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe Me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto Him, Say we not well that Thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour My Father, and ye do dishonour Me.
50 And I seek not Mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep My saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto Him, Now we know that Thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and Thou sayest, If a man keep My saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art Thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: Whom makest Thou Thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour Myself, My honour is nothing: it is My Father That honoureth Me; of Whom ye say, that He is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)

A curious matter was how those false Jews were claiming to be of Abraham's seed while saying they had never been in bondage to any man. Yet the children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt. Guess they forgot about that, or was it that those false Jews were not actually real seed of Israel at all, but crept in unawares of the Canaanites? The Biblical evidence is of the latter, as leftovers from Canaan slowly crept in among Israel and became workers in the temple and eventually then priests (1 Kings 9; Ezra 2).

 

[dragonfly]

Hi RB,

I agree with some of what you said, but I don't think you understand it as I do, and that is a problem to both of us, because you stick doggedly to the letter, and I can't 'do' the letter without the Spirit. Your first paragraph,

Not forgetting, discounting. I do not believe that He was "totally cut off from the tree in death." To the contrary, His death provided the means by which the New Covenant WITH ISRA'EL and WITH Y'HUDAH could be instated! It was still HIS body that was raised from the dead; the body that was given birth by Miryam (Mary) was the SAME BODY (with modifications) of which He told His disciples:

doesn't make any sense whatever.

I am not suggesting Jesus somehow lost His ethnic identity by passing through death. But I am saying - in line with all of the apostles' preaching - that what He accomplished through death required His actual death; His actual cutting off (as Daniel prophesied) from every one of His people, naturally speaking. The entire gospel hangs on the fact that He both died (thus being completely cut off from all other men) and rose again.

But we can never limit our Lord Jesus Christ to His natural heritage through Mary of Judah, because His Father was always in heaven.


It was His death which freed us from the POWER of sin. He died to take back the POWER of death from Satan. Unless you see this, what is the gospel?


Regarding the individual nature of the 'trees' to which John the Baptist referred, each person carries their own tree of the knowledge of good and evil. These are the trees (OUR old man) to which the axe is laid in the death of Messiah Jesus, for each individual who will lay hold of it by faith.


In other words - and you can follow this progression chronologically through the Old Testament - God is after an individual relationship with the heart of each believer. He had it with the patriarchs, and certain others, but we see how 'the children of Israel' placed Moses between themselves and God, promising to keep the covenant which turned them into a nation, although for many, their heart was far from Him. And we see how God dealt with them.

Now that the Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world, God is expecting to be able to return to individual responses from His would-be spiritual sons.



In that the death of Christ was essential for dealing with 'the sin' which had entered the world through Adam, it is unthinkable (to me) that you are suggesting an adjustment to the meaning of 'cut off' as it appears in the Old Testament, when it always meant total exclusion - and there is plenty of it.

It is precisely because Christ was 'cut off' from His people, for their sins, that faith in Him is effectual for salvation. Had He not been so dead that 'the sin' had been taken to the grave with Him once and for all, not only would no Israelite or Jew be saved, neither would any Gentile.

Obviously, He had to be completely dead, to be resurrected from among the dead. This is the key to salvation. It is the 'good news'.


For those who accept and believe it, there can be a new creation. Those who stumble at the rock offense, will one day be ground to powder.

 

[Purity]

Yes and so we must cut away from our old "father" and cleave unto our heavenly Father. Yeshua has revealed to us how to accomplish this through his Testimony if only we will abide in it and him, (and the Father spoke through him reconciling the world unto himself). Yeshua says "I am the RHIZA-ROOT" but Retrobyter says Yeshua is "The "Neetzer!" The "sucker" that grew out of the root of the tree trunk!" The two of you can believe whatever you want but I will believe the Testimony of Yeshua.

That's fine if I knew your belief - is there a post I missed?

Would you care to explain how the NT teaches salvation for anyone simply because it was promised to them?
No faith no believing in Jesus just based on a promise, I'm all ears.

The comment "by promise" was written to imply salvation would not be by Law.

The abundant entrance into the Kingdom of God on earth can only be by promise....hence 2 Peter 1:4

There are three covenants of promise, all of which are confirmed by the offering and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 15:8).

1. The covenant in Eden promised eternal life (that which was lost through sin)
2. The Abrahamic covenant promised an eternal inheritance (in contrast to what Abram gave up in leaving Ur)
3 The Davidic covenant promised a Temple and eternal rule (in comparison to the Temple the King desired to build).

Each covenant built upon its predecessor. The first promised life; the second an inheritance where it could be lived; the third a glory associated with that time.

The promises comprise the Gospel (Gal 3:8), and form a key that will unlock all sections of the Word.

If you know another way please explain ..John 10:1

Purity

Shalom, Daq.


Have you never read...

Isaiah 11:1-7
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew: v-neetser) shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
KJV

Isaiah 60:18-22
18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch (Hebrew: neetser) of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
KJV

It may seem a little strange (and perhaps a little too irreverent for some, because of other definitions for the word), but I am referring to the definition for "sucker" as given in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary:

sucker
...
8. a shoot rising from an underground stem or root.

This matches His description in Isaiah 11:1.

I thought we could look at a picture today

Some key verses

Isa 6:13
Isa 10:33

How does the root out of dry ground relate to this teaching? Isa 53:2; Rom 11:18 cmp also Mic 5:2

Heb "netzer" (as in Isa 60:1-22; Isa 21:1-17), root of Nazareth (Mat 2:23). Similar to Heb "tzemach", used elsewhere: Isa 4:2; Jer 23:5; Jer 33:15; Zec 3:8; Zec 6:12.

The question of course which must be asked is what does it all mean?

Clearly the very first lesson is that Jesus Christ came from the fallen stock of Adam and in every way he was the Son of Abraham; the Son of David. Rev 22:16

Purity

Question to all forum members:

Do you believe the Christian Church has replaced Israel in its entirety?

I have made my beliefs extremely clear and well supported by relevant Scripture but is there any who adamantly believe Israel is no more?

Thanks
Purity

A curious matter was how those false Jews were claiming to be of Abraham's seed while saying they had never been in bondage to any man. Yet the children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt. Guess they forgot about that, or was it that those false Jews were not actually real seed of Israel at all, but crept in unawares of the Canaanites? The Biblical evidence is of the latter, as leftovers from Canaan slowly crept in among Israel and became workers in the temple and eventually then priests (1 Kings 9; Ezra 2).

In not in their thinking they were Canaanites but their blood line was Jewish that is for certain. Rom 11:1,2

 

[Rex]

The comment "by promise" was written to imply salvation would not be by Law.

The abundant entrance into the Kingdom of God on earth can only be by promise....hence 2 Peter 1:4

There are three covenants of promise, all of which are confirmed by the offering and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 15:8).

1. The covenant in Eden promised eternal life (that which was lost through sin)
2. The Abrahamic covenant promised an eternal inheritance (in contrast to what Abram gave up in leaving Ur)
3 The Davidic covenant promised a Temple and eternal rule (in comparison to the Temple the King desired to build).

Each covenant built upon its predecessor. The first promised life; the second an inheritance where it could be lived; the third a glory associated with that time.

The promises comprise the Gospel (Gal 3:8), and form a key that will unlock all sections of the Word.

If you know another way please explain ..John 10:1

Purity

I notice you always agree and you always leave out one thing, You never say that the promise doesn't apply to all the descendents of Abraham or that it does.

Whats up with that Purity?

But I have to admit, That sure is a pretty dance step you have there.

 

[Purity]

I notice you always agree and you always leave out one thing, You never say that the promise doesn't apply to all the descendents of Abraham or that it does.

Whats up with that Purity?

But I have to admit, That sure is a pretty dance step you have there.

Because that would be going against Rom 9:4 wouldn't it?

The promise's apply to all Israelites (and now Gentiles alike) but not all Israelites respond just as you know all Gentiles have not responded. That's why Zech 13:9 is required.

Sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Purity

 

[Rex]

I think it's similar to 1 Kings 18:21
But the people said nothing

But you bend the knee to whom you please. If it be men born of the flesh then so be it.

 

[veteran]

In not in their thinking they were Canaanites but their blood line was Jewish that is for certain. Rom 11:1,2

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

That verse is Christ's Milennium reign timing.

Sounds like you've missed a lot about that matter of the Canaanites having crept within God's House.

 

[daq]

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

That verse is Christ's Milennium reign timing.

Sounds like you've missed a lot about that matter of the Canaanites having crept within God's House.

Glory be to God there are no more Canaanites in my house of the Lord. The Hivites are wily ones, (and will make a covenant with you under false pretenses and assumptions if you let them) but put yourself on special watch like a watchman on the wall for that seventh, the Girgashite, for he is Legion and no man can bind him: I had more false doctrines than Hal "the Late Great Planet" 9000, Timothy "Tribulation Force" LaHay-Ride, and Harold "Rapture Ready 2011" FEMA-Camping all combined. The fullness of the heathen had come in and there was nothing I could do in the End but to give my testimony and call upon the name of the Lord. Too bad so many refuse to see that the man is both the house and the land with all it fields, (the Jebusites like to hide behind the blind and the lame).

 

[Rex]

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

That verse is Christ's Milennium reign timing.

Sounds like you've missed a lot about that matter of the Canaanites having crept within God's House.

LOL yea thats the ticket, all the scribes and the Pharisees were all crept in unaware Nicodemus the whole crew were all "false Jews"
Let use that angle to interpret the NT
I know your going to like the red part

1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4 Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’
5 But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. But 70 AD is not your cup of shine "spirits" is it
8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless. 13 Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I've been thinking about your statement back on p9 of this thread (and in other threads also) and would like to know why you attribute the Kenites to Canaan, rather than to a tribe of Israel?

The Jews early on contained many from the Canaanite peoples early in their history, even with the Kenites of the lands of Canaan becoming scribes in Israel in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ.

1 Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Jeremiah 35:18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

2 Samuel 13:3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.

1 Chronicles 2:13 And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third,


There are so many 'Ken-' places and 'Ken-' people groups, what makes you so sure 'Kenite' is necessarily bad?

Glory be to God there are no more Canaanites in my house of the Lord. The Hivites are wily ones, (and will make a covenant with you under false pretenses and assumptions if you let them) but put yourself on special watch like a watchman on the wall for that seventh, the Girgashite, for he is Legion and no man can bind him: I had more false doctrines than Hal "the Late Great Planet" 9000, Timothy "Tribulation Force" LaHay-Ride, and Harold "Rapture Ready 2011" FEMA-Camping all combined. The fullness of the heathen had come in and there was nothing I could do in the End but to give my testimony and call upon the name of the Lord. Too bad so many refuse to see that the man is both the house and the land with all it fields, (the Jebusites like to hide behind the blind and the lame).

Thanks for such an interesting and thought-provoking post, daq.

 

[Purity]

I think it's similar to 1 Kings 18:21
But the people said nothing

But you bend the knee to whom you please. If it be men born of the flesh then so be it.

Yes and for the gentile Christian the equivalent is Jas 1:8 (two souled)

Your last sentence didn't ring any bells. Where in the context of our discussion have you been led to believe I worship men?

You would agree its an odd conclusion you have drawn too?

Purity

Zech 14:21
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

That verse is Christ's Milennium reign timing.

Sounds like you've missed a lot about that matter of the Canaanites having crept within God's House.

Nothing missed Veteran that I can see.

The term "Canaanite" is used in this verse for ecclesiastical traders, such as the clergy of Christendom, and all purveyors of religious error and apostasy. The use of this word throughout Scripture illustrates that fact. When Abraham entered the Land of Promise, the record states that "the Canaanite was then in the land" Gen 12:6.

The word "Canaanite" comes from a root kana signifying "to bend the knee," hence to pretend humility, and thus a trader seeking to persuade his client to purchase his wares. Because of this, the RSV renders the word in Zec 14:21 as "trader."

Zech 14:21ESV
Zech 14:21YLT
Zech 14:21NLT

Trader - Or “merchant”; “trader” (because Canaanites, especially Phoenicians, were merchants and traders; cf. BDB 489 s.v. I and II כְּנַעֲנִי). English versions have rendered the term as “Canaanite” (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV), “trader” (RSV, NEB), “traders” (NRSV, NLT), or “merchant” (NAB), although frequently a note is given explaining the other option. Cf. also John 2:16. sn This is not to preclude the Canaanite (or anyone else) from worship; the point is that in the messianic age all such ethnic and religious distinctions will be erased and all people will be eligible to worship the Lord.

The Canaanites were a people cursed of God (Gen 9:25), and thus typical of the enemy of the righteous. They are a fitting type of the spiritual traders, the ecclesiastical merchants of the world (Rev 18:11), who trade in the "bodies and souls of men" (Rev 18:13, AV mg.), and are prepared to "bow the knee" in humiliating themselves to gain an advantage. There were many such in the house of Yahweh, when the Lord visited it at his first advent, and drove from its precincts the traders in religion who desecrated that holy place. He indignantly told them that they had turned the holy place into a "den of thieves" (Mark 11:17). This action indicates the abhorrence of Yahweh to those within the ecclesial "house" who use the Truth for a form of personal prestige (cp. 3Jn 1:9), or for material advantage (Mat 23:13-16). Even the grasping of the repute and praise of their fellows is a form of such trading (Psa 49:18). This form of ecclesiastical trading will be rigorously suppressed in the millennium, whilst normal, legitimate trading (under different principles to those manifested today) will continue (Isa 23:18). It is significant, that whilst the clergy are described as Canaanites, or merchantmen, their churches are scripturally described as "bazaars" or places of business in which trading for the development of the religious system is encouraged and developed. In Dan 11:39, the term "most strong holds" in which a strange god was to be acknowledged with "gold, silver, precious stones," etc., by the Apostasy is from the Hebrew, Mivtzahrai Mahuzzim, which signifies "Bazaars of Guardians," the guardians being the patron saints of Rome and its harlot daughters. Peter warned of these "Canaanites" who, he declared, would make "merchandise" of the followers of the Lord (2Pe 2:3). His prophecy was fulfilled, so that their numbers in the earth today are legion, because error is in the ascendancy, and men fear not Yahweh. Even within the true Brotherhood of God one earth there is a danger of allowing such an influence to permeate the arrangements of ecclesial labour. Any evidence of "trading," exchanging, and monetary benefits need to be removed from activities, so that only the "sacrifice" of a "willing offering" is seen (cp. Exo 35:29). The time is hastening when the judgment of Yahweh of hosts will be poured out upon these wicked perverters of the Truth, so that both they and the systems of error they control, shall be removed. The outpouring of this judgment on Babylon the Great will cause "the merchants of the earth to weep and mourn; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more" (Rev 18:11). Men will then turn to Yahweh in truth, rejoicing in the glorious benefits of Christ's reign, and particularly in the elevating influence of divine worship. With joy will they turn to one another and say, "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem" (Isa 2:3). May the time soon come when the death-knell of Apostasy in all its forms shall toll out the iniquitous system with its Idol Shepherd and its harlot daughters, when the shackles of slavery to sin and religious superstition shall be snapped for ever, because "Yahweh of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously" (Isa 24:23). Then "Yahweh is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of His land" (Psa 10:16).

May the glorious vision of Zechariah soon be a reality in the earth, and Holiness to Yahweh the centre and focus of all mankind!

Amen and amen.