The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Rex]

Yes and for the gentile Christian the equivalent is Jas 1:8 (two souled)

Your last sentence didn't ring any bells. Where in the context of our discussion have you been led to believe I worship men?

You would agree its an odd conclusion you have drawn too?

Purity

The Gentile equivalent, well that was my point in posting what I did, If you think about it what your saying is one God treats differently two types of people. But the same god.

Same thing with Elijah;
Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”
But the people said nothing.

Your reply affirms the correctness of the verse I chose, you have two opinions concerning one God.
You waver between two opinions, when your directly asked are all Israel of the flesh saved, or only those that believe by faith? see my post below.

I notice you always agree and you always leave out one thing, You never say that the promise doesn't apply to all the descendents of Abraham or that it does.

Whats up with that Purity?

But I have to admit, That sure is a pretty dance step you have there.

You never directly answer the question, to quote 1 Kings 18:21 "But Purity said nothing" -->> concerning the direct question.

but you slipped up a bit in this post, clearly you separate Gods Israel into two camps, two opinions,

Yes and for the gentile Christian the equivalent is Jas 1:8 (two souled)

like I said its a pretty dance you have there by never publicly making a discussion, all the while agreeing with me on all points but one.
Which equals two, one salvation for Israel and one salvation for the Gentiles.
You bend the knee to whom you please, was in reference to your Romans 9:4 verse

Because that would be going against Rom 9:4 wouldn't it?

 

[Purity]

The Gentile equivalent, well that was my point in posting what I did, If you think about it what your saying is one God treats differently two types of people. But the same god.

It's an interesting point you make which is validated from Rom 11.

Consider how difficult it is to graft onto the Israel tree a "wild Olive" branch. You and I both agree the tree is Christ but the natural branch has been cultivated of many genrations whereas the wild olive tree is not so.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:24)

Can you see Paul's point Rex?

So whether Jew or Greek it is one tree though the nature of the branches are different.

It is far easier for God to regraft an Israel which knew His will and laws, but which for a time have gone astray, than to convert ignorant Gentiles who were always outside His wisdom. Even in apostasy Jews show a greater aptitude for reverence than do Gentiles. They honour God's authority, although they do not understand His purpose of redemption, resting on the precepts of law and ritual without faith. The "lump" and "branches" must yet be converted and offered to Yahweh. See Rom 11:16; Jer 33:9.

Same thing with Elijah;

Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”
But the people said nothing.

So here in Rom 11:2 we see Paul draw back to a period of gross apostasy in Israel's history where the Nation was guilty of slaughtering her own true prophets. 1Ki 19:10; 1Ki 19:14

Elijah represents being Israelish indeed "I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life to take it away" (1 King 19:10). Yet, even under such extreme apostasy, God had protected some who refused to follow the majority who flagrantly practised evil. The presence of a faithful minority was hidden from Elijah at the time: "I have left Me (preserved to Me) seven thousand in Israel" (1 King 19:18). Though mankind may not see the evidence of faithfulness in an apostate Israel, Yahweh will work to bring about a reformation such as is portrayed in the prophets.

So the question Rex will God take another remnant for His name from Israel?

Yes or No?

Your reply affirms the correctness of the verse I chose, you have two opinions concerning one God.

As above I have one opinion - the second is "make believe" something you have perceived in your mind to overcome the truth being presented.

You waver between two opinions, when your directly asked are all Israel of the flesh saved, or only those that believe by faith? see my post below.

Lets see.

Was Israel of the flesh saved in the above account? 1 Kings 19:18

Is this not the context of Pauls argument in Romans 11? Is this not why Paul used Elijah out of all the prophets to teach from?

And strangely enough Rex isn't it odd that Paul uses Elijah who afterall is prophesied for a work after the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to the earth. Will he not be the instrument by which the "faithful remnant" will be recovered from the lands of the Gentiles, and brought to the attention of all the world: see Mal 4:4,5,6.

Paul cites the days of Elijah for another reason also. It was undoubtedly one of the most disgraceful periods of apostasy in the nation's history. Paul is obliquely drawing a parallel between the extent of the nation's wickedness in the days of Elijah and their rejection of Christ, and his saving gospel in the apostolic period of history. There is something very ominous in this parallel. Following their rejection of Elijah, terrible judgments came upon Israel at the hands of Hazael and Jehu. For similar reasons, and worse, divine judgment was drawing near once again - this time at the hands of the Roman armies in the period of AD70.

I perceive Rex an unwillingness to "see" the Israel tree as God intended.

But I could be wrong.

 

[daq]

Hi veteran,

I've been thinking about your statement back on p9 of this thread (and in other threads also) and would like to know why you attribute the Kenites to Canaan, rather than to a tribe of Israel?


1 Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, and Suchathites. These are the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

Jeremiah 35:18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

2 Samuel 13:3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.

1 Chronicles 2:13 And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third,


There are so many 'Ken-' places and 'Ken-' people groups, what makes you so sure 'Kenite' is necessarily bad?


Thanks for such an interesting and thought-provoking post, daq.

You are certainly welcome and likewise I say the same to you! I believe you are correct to question the statements from veteran along these lines because the Scripture evidence points in the opposite direction of that which he has taken. It appears that some are merely touting what they have read and heard from someone else. The Kenites have a definite connection to Raguel-Jethro, the priest of Midian, who was likely in the Elohim line of the Melchizedek priesthood which Moses then married into:

Judges 1:16 KJV
16. And the children of the Kenite, Moses' father in law, went up out of the city of palm trees with the children of Judah into the wilderness of Judah, which lieth in the south of Arad; and they went and dwelt among the people.

Observations of a Spiritual Kind - Reply#4
Priesthood - Replies#21-56

 

[Rex]

It's an interesting point you make which is validated from Rom 11.

Consider how difficult it is to graft onto the Israel tree a "wild Olive" branch. You and I both agree the tree is Christ but the natural branch has been cultivated of many genrations whereas the wild olive tree is not so.

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:24)

Can you see Paul's point Rex?

The reason being they were schooled God since the Exodus, they have no excuse for rejecting Jesus, but just as Paul persecuted the Christians he knew the torah better than most. But it all changed when he was called siddenly all the information in his head he had been reading from the torah came into a new light. Where as the Gentiles were not raised for generations KNOWING Gods word. You should do the same.

So whether Jew or Greek it is one tree though the nature of the branches are different.

It is far easier for God to regraft an Israel which knew His will and laws, but which for a time have gone astray, than to convert ignorant Gentiles who were always outside His wisdom. Even in apostasy Jews show a greater aptitude for reverence than do Gentiles. They honour God's authority, although they do not understand His purpose of redemption, resting on the precepts of law and ritual without faith. The "lump" and "branches" must yet be converted and offered to Yahweh. See Rom 11:16; Jer 33:9.

All I can say is how does it feel to out of closet?

So here in Rom 11:2 we see Paul draw back to a period of gross apostasy in Israel's history where the Nation was guilty of slaughtering her own true prophets. 1Ki 19:10; 1Ki 19:14

Elijah represents being Israelish indeed "I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life to take it away" (1 King 19:10). Yet, even under such extreme apostasy, God had protected some who refused to follow the majority who flagrantly practised evil. The presence of a faithful minority was hidden from Elijah at the time: "I have left Me (preserved to Me) seven thousand in Israel" (1 King 19:18). Though mankind may not see the evidence of faithfulness in an apostate Israel, Yahweh will work to bring about a reformation such as is portrayed in the prophets.

So the question Rex will God take another remnant for His name from Israel?

Yes or No?

Which Israel?

I perceive Rex another problem with your belief which for now will remain in silence.

Top secret information ha LOL
So now your placing your presumed light under a basket and to top it off making a public statement about it.

Yep I agree daq, a thought provoking post

 

[Purity]

You bend the knee to whom you please, was in reference to your Romans 9:4 verse

This is cogs wallop; a cop out so you are not confronted with Rom 11:32 for the "all" identifies with both "Jew and Greek" who are all imprisoned with sin. Now if you take offense to God's plan with Israel both past, present and future take it up with Him directly, but please do not make such accusations against one who is showing His truth.

You cannot change Romans 9:4; Rom 11:26; Rom 11:1 - Rex - let this rest on your gently.

Purity

The reason being they were schooled God since the Exodus, they have no excuse for rejecting Jesus, but just as Paul persecuted the Christians he knew the torah better than most. But it all changed when he was called siddenly all the information in his head he had been reading from the torah came into a new light. Where as the Gentiles were not raised for generations KNOWING Gods word. You should do the same.

You use Pauls example and conversion and yet deny He cannot do the same to Paul (Rom 11:1) as with whats left with Israel after their purging is yet to be seen in your understanding?

We wait.

All I can say is how does it feel to out of closet?

You don't read my posts do you? I have been saying this for three pages and yet you pretend like I have taught some new thing?

You are acting very strange Rex.

Which Israel?


Top secret information ha LOL
So now your placing your presumed light under a basket and to top it off making a public statement about it.

No the comment related to a problem in your theology which denies the prophetic oracle. You know not how to enter the Scripture's.

I have been waiting for something - still waiting.

But all the same enjoying the dialogue - and particularly like the format of CB - a credit to the engineers!

Purity

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

But all the same enjoying the dialogue - and particularly like the format of CB - a credit to the engineers!

Purity

Purity .... I am enjoying your input .... thanks

 

[Rex]

You don't read my posts do you? I have been saying this for three pages and yet you pretend like I have taught some new thing?

You are acting very strange Rex.

It's your cryptic way of communicating I though you might like a bit of your own medicine

For three pages you never came out and directly stated what you believe.
And BTW what is your definition of the "prophetic oracle" your starting to sound like a card reader with a crystal ball

And the only reason your unloading now is because I cornered you about what you believe
So get it all off your chest now, your little game of hid and seek is over

but you slipped up a bit in this post, clearly you separate Gods Israel into two camps, two opinions,

Yes and for the gentile Christian the equivalent is Jas 1:8 (two souled)

like I said its a pretty dance you have there by never publicly making a discussion, all the while agreeing with me on all points but one.
Which equals two, one salvation for Israel and one salvation for the Gentiles.

You bend the knee to whom you please, was in reference to your Romans 9:4 verse

Get it all out Purity all the things you agreed with me on lets see what you really think.

Then we can compare what you said then with now

 

[Purity]

It's your cryptic way of communicating I though you might like a bit of your own medicine

For three pages you never came out and directly stated what you believe.

Rex, Arnie agreed to one post and understood precisely what was said.

What is your motive here?

And BTW what is your definition of the "prophetic oracle" your starting to sound like a card reader with a crystal ball

Holy Writ; Holy Scripture's; The Word; The Bible; Divine Creed etc etc.

Why must I keep explaining elementary things to you Rex?

Meaning:

6. (Christian Religious Writings / Bible) Bible
a. a message from God

b. the holy of holies in the Israelite temple See also oracles

Its likened to Rom 11:4 KJV "But what says the Divine Oracle (answer) unto him?"

This is just more evidence of your insincerity to consider the truth and smear another's character.

What else can it be?

And the only reason your unloading now is because I cornered you about what you believe So get it all off your chest now, your little game of hid and seek is over

Ho hum back to your childish accusation of games of hide and seek.

Do you have anything to add to the OP? other than the predictable.

Get it all out Purity all the things you agreed with me on lets see what you really think.

Thus far I see a man who no doubt has faith in God and has been taught many things concerning the Scriptures, however those things relating to Israel are amiss in you.

Then we can compare what you said then with now

This does not look good for you Rex.

Yes.... I accept the above as truth.

I find an abundance of similar favourable things for Israel scattered throughout the bible .... I just wonder why everybody else cannot see them ..... it is almost like a blindness they have ..... or simply an arrogance of thinking Israel is nothing and they themselves are everything.

One day in the future god removes the blindness from unbelieving Israel ....... in the meantime I hope he removes the blindness from the Gentile Christians who arrogantly dismiss Israel

Rex, if you cannot find the abundance of similar favourable things for Israel whose fault is this?

John 3:3

Purity

p.s In no way am I suggesting Arnie agrees with all I have said but its the spirit I am concerned with concerning Israel.

 

[Rex]

Holy Writ; Holy Scripture's; The Word; The Bible; Divine Creed etc etc.

Why must I keep explaining elementary things to you Rex?

To start with it's clear we don't speak the same spiritual launguage
and secondly you need to use words that properly define what it is your trying to say, an oracle is not the bible holy scriptures ect


or·a·cle
/ˈôrəkəl/

Noun

1. A priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
2. A place at which such advice or prophecy was sought.

Now in the most common use of the word it sounds as though I'm ignoring you as the oracle, and judging from your comments I don't think that's a stretch.

and thirdly you say a lot without ever saying anything.
Who the hell calls the bible an oracle

 

[Purity]

To start with it's clear we don't speak the same spiritual language

Yes I agree - I have quoted Scrpiture and provided a coherent understaonf on parts of Rom 9 & 11 and I am yet to see this from you.

and secondly you need to use words that properly define what it is your trying to say, an oracle is not the bible holy scriptures ect

An oracle can mean any message given with authority.

For instance; during the reformation years they referred to the NT as the Living Oracles...to which they are if one understands the true use of the word.

or·a·cle
/ˈôrəkəl/
Noun

• A priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
• A place at which such advice or prophecy was sought.

Now in the most common use of the word it sounds as though I'm ignoring you as the oracle, and judging from your comments I don't think that's a stretch.

and thirdly you say a lot without ever saying anything.

I think its another example of one trying to pick pedantic holes in another posts - again we ask why?

Who the hell calls the bible an oracle

I just did

Oracle :

A declaration; something uttered.

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the ORACLES of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. ( Hebrew 5:11-12 )

 

[Rex]

Yes I agree - I have quoted Scrpiture and provided a coherent understaonf on parts of Rom 9 & 11 and I am yet to see this from you.

Your not paying attention or your simply making things up to be slanderous.
I believe your now just making things up

I can't even imagine how many time I have referenced Romans 9 and offered my insight in this thread.
Check the OP for Romans 11 you don't think I have made my position known?

What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated. The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram. Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say. We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16 , the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen 3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,, Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,, Gal 3:8

 

[Purity]

Your not paying attention or your simply making things up in to be slanderous.
I believe your now just making things up

I can't even imagine how many time I have referenced Romans 9 and offered my insight in this thread.

Your credibility is falling with every post.

Act_7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Rom_3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
1Pe_4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Who the hell calls the bible an oracle

 

[Rex]

I asked who the hell calls the bible an oracle, your the first
And I think arguing with someone like you is a forever venture so good night.

 

[Angelina]

I am impressed with your courteous debating style folks... Well done and keep it up!

Bless y'all!

 

[Rex]

And BTW the lively oracle would be referring to the speaker at the time mentioned would have been God or the Angel of God

Notice in every case it is referring to the speaker not the record of what was spoken

 

[Purity]

I asked who the hell calls the bible an oracle, your the first

And I think arguing with someone like you is a forever venture so good night.

Notice in every case it is referring to the speaker not the record of what was spoken

When you awake and get dressed lets hope you are clothed with humility 1 Peter 5:5

 

[Rex]

Rom_3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the<<<----Torah 10 com Bible ect oracles of God The oracle------->>> God.

I see you've been editing the post behind us I told you I would be watching
Your a very deceptive person,

I just did

Oracle :

A declaration; something uttered.

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the ORACLES of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. ( Hebrew 5:11-12 )

Both the bible and the English dictionary disagree with your definition.

or·a·cle
/ˈôrəkəl/
Noun

1. A priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
2. A place at which such advice or prophecy was sought.

I'm going to put and end to this nonsense

This is what you first said

No the comment related to a problem in your theology which denies the prophetic oracle. You know not how to enter the Scripture's.

Purity

I asked

And BTW what is your definition of the "prophetic oracle" your starting to sound like a card reader with a crystal ball

You replied

Holy Writ; Holy Scripture's; The Word; The Bible; Divine Creed etc etc.

A prophetic oracle is a prophet and you have since morphed this into oracle being the bible in the second definition of oracle yes as the recorded message of the oracle, but it is not the oracle. And by proper definition an oracle is a being be it God or man.

You have really shown your true nature you clearly said prophetic oracle and named it the bible.
The second point is it is phrased as though you are that oracle I am denying and I don't know how to read the scriptures.

So i believe the statement is quite accurate and a reflection of you.

No the comment related to a problem in your theology which denies the prophetic oracle. You know not how to enter the Scripture's.

Besides your past post edits to make yourself look good have already been mentioned by me several pages ago, when you first entered this topic.
Like I said a day or two ago your like a snake in the grass, twisting and turning.

I'll ask again only this time i'll ask WHO is the prophetic oracle?

 

[Purity]

Rom_3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the<<<----Torah 10 com Bible ect oracles of God The oracle------->>> God.

I see you've been editing the post behind us I told you I would be watching
Your a very deceptive person,




Both the bible and the English dictionary disagree with your definition.

or·a·cle
/ˈôrəkəl/
Noun

1. A priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
2. A place at which such advice or prophecy was sought.

I'm going to put and end to this nonsense

This is what you first said
I asked
You replied

A prophetic oracle is a prophet and you have since morphed this into oracle being the bible in the second definition of oracle yes as the recorded message of the oracle, but it is not the oracle. And by proper definition an oracle is a being be it God or man.

You have really shown your true nature you clearly said prophetic oracle and named it the bible.
The second point is it is phrased as though you are that oracle I am denying and I don't know how to read the scriptures.

So i believe the statement is quite accurate and a reflection of you.


Besides your past post edits to make yourself look good have already been mentioned by me several pages ago, when you first entered this topic.
Like I said a day or two ago your like a snake in the grass, twisting and turning.

By the I'll ask again only this time i'll ask WHO is the prophetic oracle?

I didn't read sorry Rex.

You don't know when enough is enough...and its enough.

 

[Rex]

Just Google oracle and show me its defined as book or anything recorded

Like I said we speak different languages and follow different spirits obviously

 

[Purity]

Just Google oracle and show me its defined as book or anything recorded

Like I said we speak different languages and follow different spirits obviously

G3051
λόγιον
logion
log'-ee-on

Neuter of G3052; an utterance (of God): - oracle.