The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[veteran]

I still haven't figured out what the dispute in this thread is all about.

What I do know is what Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 15:5: "I am the vine; you are the branches."

Most here don't really know what it's about either.

There's been arguments here from Dispensationalists regarding that Rom.11 Scripture, and Jews that refuse to understand what Apostle Paul was talking about in Rom.11:7-11 and Rom.11:25, and... their refusal to admit that Rom.11:25-31 does not mean Israel will be saved without repenting and believing on Jesus Christ.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

In regards to some of your other comments herein, (made to Arnie) have you ever noticed that Saul-Paul is a Jew but his tribal lineage is of Benjamin? This is exactly the case with one other person in the Scripture which is Mordecai the Jew, who was of Benjamin, a son of Kish who was the father of Saul:

With that in mind I have always found this passage interesting ....

Isaiah 48:1 “Listen to this, you descendants of Jacob,
you who are called by the name of Israel
and come from the line of Judah,

 

[veteran]

With that in mind I have always found this passage interesting ....

Isaiah 48:1 “Listen to this, you descendants of Jacob,
you who are called by the name of Israel
and come from the line of Judah,

You're just showing more of your Biblical ignorance.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You're just showing more of your Biblical ignorance.

Here is some more from Isaiah regarding descendants of Jacob-isreal being a bloodline and not some imaginary spiritual concoction by western Christians.

Isaiah 8:17 I will wait for the Lord,
who is hiding his face from the descendants of Jacob.
I will put my trust in him.
18 Here am I, and the children the Lord has given me.
We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty, who dwells on mount Zion.

Isaiah 41:8 “But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, ‘You are my servant’;
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isaiah 44:1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen..... 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants. ...... 5 Some will say, ‘I belong to the Lord’;
others will call themselves by the name of Jacob;
still others will write on their hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
and will take the name Israel.

Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

20 “Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him.

Isaiah 46:3 “Listen to me, you descendants of Jacob,
all the remnant of the people of Israel,
you whom I have upheld since your birth,
and have carried since you were born.
4 Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you. .........
13 I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

Hi Arnie,

I need to clarify something I said in my last post. The following comment was specifically in reference to the verses from Hosea.

'Peter is referring to Israel, not to the Gentiles, although from Ephesians 2 we see that Gentiles are given equal place in 'the commonwealth of Israel'.'

What I mean is, God had divorced 'Israel', and He maintains this stance, so that it's not until they begin to be restored through the Messiah who came out of Judah as prophesied, that they become 'my people' again.


The Gentiles were always on God's radar, though, as we see from Genesis to Revelation.

Many times I have heard it put forward that the people who were 'not a people', were the Gentiles, but it's impossible to read Hosea and take that meaning, as Israel is specifically named as 'not my people' right there, in the verses which Peter quotes.

God references Hosea's divorce and re-marriage as a parallel to God divorcing israel and bringing her back into the fold later .... I see a mention of that in Isaiah as well

Isaiah 54:6 The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

I think that summarizes my whole point in this thread ..... God brings back all Israel some day.

What I mean is, God had divorced 'Israel', and He maintains this stance, so that it's not until they begin to be restored through the Messiah who came out of Judah as prophesied, that they become 'my people' again.

I think what dragonfly said in the above quote is the exact answer to the Israel question in this thread.

Ever since they rejected Christ 2000 years ago ..... God "divorced" Israel .... but he will reconcile with them again some day.

And it will be literal Israel .... He does not have to reconcile the church.

I do not pretend to know the mechanics of how He does it

It remains a mystery to us who have Christ.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Dodo_David.

I still haven't figured out what the dispute in this thread is all about.

What I do know is what Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 15:5: "I am the vine; you are the branches."

In the 11th chapter of Romans, the Apostle Paul talks about the grafting of branches into the vine. He says the following to Gentiles in regards to Jews:


So, what matters is whether or not a person is a part of the vine, with that vine being Messiah Jesus.

Fooey. Only a city slicker would think that olives grow on a vine!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

Do you believe that all those who fell in the wilderness through unbelief, will be resurrected to life or to death?


Would it be fair to assume that whatever your answer is to that question, it can be extrapolated to all unbelieving Israel down through the centuries?





Hi Purity,

The Masters name "Christ" or "Jesus" is not mention directly within the Chapter. You are absolutely correct that Jesus Christ is the deliverer who will come to Zion and he will remove the ungodliness (or Canaanite)from Israel - as per the prophecy of John 1:47.

Please tell me where the Canaanite mentioned in the following verse will be in your scheme of things?

Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite ... '


Do you know that the word 'synagogue' means 'mixed multitude', and it was a 'synagogue' which came out of Egypt in Exodus?

God's solution for the next Passover, was
Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

This verse is talking about Egyptians and other non-Hebrews, who have never set foot in 'the land', being counted as Israelites in respect of Passover (the cross); and these were circumcised only 430 years after Abraham, who lived four thousand years ago. 'Natural Israel'.......... ??????

Another point. As you know, women were not circumcised under the covenant with Abraham, as they are 'one flesh' with their husbands, who are circumcised. Therefore, all the women who were not of Israel, have had an influence on even the strictest definition of 'natural Israel', from the start. This should be obvious if you think about what is meant by 'brother' in respect of Sarah's family, as she was also Abraham's 'sister'. Think about it! 'Israel' is not an ethnic group primarily. It is the aspiration of God that Jacob's children would take their relationship with Him as seriously as Jacob did.

Likewise, the verse that daq brought to light from Esther, is necessary to understand (Arnie) that God's heart has always been to save the whole world,

Esther 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them. Hebrews 9:15

never just a remnant; (but the majority (of Israelites - and Judah) chose to worship idols instead of God. God is intolerant of idolatry).


Do you realise that (according to genetic studies) at least half the 'Jews' in Europe are not descended from Jacob, either?

Does this mean they are not part of the 'Israel' to which Paul alludes the second time he uses the word in Romans 9:6?

It doesn't look good for the Gentile believer does it Dragon?

What do you mean? (I have no idea!) I need a definition of 'it' as well as why you mention 'the Gentile believer'. Thanks.

 

[In Christ]

The comment wasn't to imply the Messiah was not taught within the chapter but to say he is not directly named within the chapter is the point being made. I agree with you in regards to Rom 11:26 but he is not the subject matter of Rom 11 - Natural Israel is the substance of Pauls message here. i.e. The restoration of Israel.


No, many understand the truth concerning Rom 11 and the future restoration of God's people in the earth. Basic Bible teaching which any young reader can determine from OT and NT reading alone.


Well this statement is not true.

Let me prove it.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I do not believe this is a literal happening and I would be deeply concerned if any believer felt a literal woman could be clothed with a literal sun.

What does this prove?

Answer: The importance of being a contextual studier of the Word.


Agreed.


Providing my boasts are in truth and Christ Jesus I am safe from your opinions.


This is true.

Do you know I am still working through some of Daq posts behind the scenes and he has taught me a couple of things I didn't know.


Romans 11 has been so thoroughly explained in this thread that all present are without excuse for not understanding Gods plan with Israel.


But you have a problem with using Jer 31:32 don't you?

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

HE HASNT BEEN DONE YET!!!!!

Its called P.R.O.P.H.E.C.Y

QUESTION - What do you find perticulary interesting about Jer 31:33?

Read it again and don't forget to come back to me!


Partial yes but its fullness is yet to take place.

Rather than arguing why don't we find something to agree on.

The “fig tree” is a symbol of Israel as per Joel 1:7.

Yes or No?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
(Luk 13:8)

"Let it alone this year” - The last year of his grace. But Yahweh gave them nearly 40 years more!!

The longsuffering of God waited!!

And still waits!


You are close - very close! In fact so close it hurts.

Matt 19:28 (This promise unique to Matthew)

“In the regeneration” ‘palliggensia’ = ‘re-birth’. Only other occurrence Titus 3:5 - not now !!!!

“12 thrones…judging 12 tribes” - after the type of Solomon’s kingdom 1 Kings 4:7

My understanding of Romans 11 accommodates a National Israel with 12 Apostles judging over the twelve tribes.

When you can begin to speak to the regeneration of Israel only then can your thinking be in harmony with God.

Purity

I have no problems with Jer. 31:32. It is a matter of how we understand Scripture. Just so you know I understand, verse 32 speaks of how the 'fathers' broke the covenant and could not enter into the land of promise because of unbelief. In contrast, verse 33 speaks of those in the 'house of Israel' which can either have in view physical or spiritual Israel. IMO spiritual Israel is in view. When God performs the cleansing of our hearts, our will is broken.

There is only one covenant! The ceremonial laws were the covenant of the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the covenant is about the completed work of God alone, Heb. 8:8-11.

We can teach people to God, to read, or to tell of Jesus but we cannot teach them to believe. Only God can save and work through His Gospel. Unless God applies His word to our hearts we can never be saved. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Matt. 19:28 is speaking of when we become saved (regeneration), we shall reign (sit in the throne) and judge with Jesus.

The setting of Matt. 19:28 is verse 27 where Peter said that they have forsaken all and followed the Lord. Note the reply of Jesus. They shall receive a hundredfold (100%) and shall inherit everlasting life.

Lu. 18:28-30 says it best:

28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left
house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come
life everlasting.

The common denominator in receiving rewards is life eternal, except for some who will become leaders of cities.

You have purposely omitted Mark 11:14 and instead introduced Joel 1:7 which only agrees that the 'Fig Tree' is a figure of National Israel and then talk about a last year of grace which extended to 40 years to God's longsuffering still waiting. These are all speculations on your part to knit together what you think is truth. Not thinking this was flawed thinking because God had divorced National Israel, and in simpler terms, means to separate or distance Himself from National Israel.

Unless you or anyone do not see that the condition of 'being blind' by National Israel is 'for ever' (Mark 11:14), until the fullness of the Gentiles come in or until the last of the Gentiles that is to be saved has become saved on the last day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), then you will never understand the deeper meaning of other complex scripture texts.

1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Arnie.

Here is some more from Isaiah regarding descendants of Jacob-isreal being a bloodline and not some imaginary spiritual concoction by western Christians.

Isaiah 8:17 I will wait for the Lord,
who is hiding his face from the descendants of Jacob.
I will put my trust in him.
18 Here am I, and the children the Lord has given me.
We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty, who dwells on mount Zion.

Isaiah 41:8 “But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
you descendants of Abraham my friend,
9 I took you from the ends of the earth,
from its farthest corners I called you.
I said, ‘You are my servant’;
I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isaiah 44:1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen..... 3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land,
and streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,
and my blessing on your descendants. ...... 5 Some will say, ‘I belong to the Lord’;
others will call themselves by the name of Jacob;
still others will write on their hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
and will take the name Israel.

Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken in secret,
from somewhere in a land of darkness;
I have not said to Jacob’s descendants,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I, the Lord, speak the truth;
I declare what is right.

20 “Gather together and come;
assemble, you fugitives from the nations.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord
and will make their boast in him.

Isaiah 46:3 “Listen to me, you descendants of Jacob,
all the remnant of the people of Israel,
you whom I have upheld since your birth,
and have carried since you were born.
4 Even to your old age and gray hairs
I am he, I am he who will sustain you.
I have made you and I will carry you;
I will sustain you and I will rescue you. .........
13 I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.





God references Hosea's divorce and re-marriage as a parallel to God divorcing israel and bringing her back into the fold later .... I see a mention of that in Isaiah as well

Isaiah 54:6 The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

I think that summarizes my whole point in this thread ..... God brings back all Israel some day.



I think what dragonfly said in the above quote is the exact answer to the Israel question in this thread.

Ever since they rejected Christ 2000 years ago ..... God "divorced" Israel .... but he will reconcile with them again some day.

And it will be literal Israel .... He does not have to reconcile the church.

I do not pretend to know the mechanics of how He does it

It remains a mystery to us who have Christ.

Don't fall for the lies that someone's been telling you. God did NOT "divorce Isra'el!" Are you meshuggah?! Re-read the story of Howsheea`; he didn't divorce Gomer, either! She WALKED AWAY! She LEFT HIM! That's a HUGE difference! It's a SEPARATION, NOT a DIVORCE!


Hosea 3:1-5
1 Adonai said to me, “Go once more, and show love to [this] wife [of yours] who has been loved by her boyfriend, to this adulteress — just as Adonai loves the people of Isra’el, even though they turn to other gods and love the raisin cakes [offered to them].”

2 So I bought her back for myself with fifteen pieces of silver and eight bushels of barley . 3 Then I told her, “You are to remain in seclusion for a long time and be mine. You are not to be a prostitute, and you are not to be with any other man; and I won’t come in to have sex with you either.” 4 For the people of Isra’el are going to be in seclusion for a long time without a king, prince, sacrifice, standing-stone, ritual vest or household gods. 5 Afterwards, the people of Isra’el will repent and seek Adonai their God and David their king; they will come trembling to Adonai and his goodness in the acharit-hayamim.
CJB

Hosea 6:11-7:10
6:11 For you, too, Y’hudah,a harvest will come!
“When I restore the fortunes of my people,

7:1 when I am ready to heal Isra’el,
the crimes of Efrayim confront me,
along with the wickedness of Shomron.
For they keep practicing deceit;
thieves break in, bands of robbers raid outside.
2 They never say to themselves
that I remember all their evil.
Now their own deeds surround them;
they are right in front of me.
3 They make the king glad with their wickedness,
and the leaders with their lies.
4 They are all adulterers,
like an oven heated by the baker,
who doesn’t stoke the fire
from kneading time till the dough has risen.

5 “On their king’s special day
the leaders inflame him with wine,
and he joins hands with scorners,
6 who ready themselves like an oven
while they wait for their chance.
Their baker sleeps through the night;
then in the morning it bursts into flame.
7 They are all as hot as an oven,
and they devour their judges.
All their kings have fallen;
not one of them calls out to me.

8 “Efrayim mixes himself with the peoples,
Efrayim has become a half-baked cake.
9 Foreigners have eaten up his strength,
but he doesn’t know it;
yes, gray hairs appear on him here and there,
but he doesn’t know it.
10 The pride of Isra’el testifies in his face,
but in spite of all this they haven’t returned
to Adonai their God or sought him.
CJB

Hosea 14:5-10
5(4) “I will heal their disloyalty,
I will love them freely;
for my anger has turned from him.
6(5) I will be like dew to Isra’el;
he will blossom like a lily
and strike roots like the L’vanon.
7(6) His branches will spread out,
his beauty be like an olive tree
and his fragrance like the L’vanon.
8(7) Again they will live in his shade and raise grain;
they will blossom like a vine,
and its aroma will be
like the wine of the L’vanon.
9(8) Efrayim [will say], ‘What have I
to do any more with idols?’
And I, I answer and affirm him;
I am like a fresh, green cypress tree;
your fruitfulness comes from me.”
10(9) Let the wise understand these things,
and let the discerning know them.
For the ways of Adonai are straight,
And the righteous walk in them,
but in them sinners stumble.
CJB

God doesn't want us divorcing our spouses and He has never divorced Isra'el, either.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

I don't know when you added to your post, but I didn't see it before (or after) I replied.


You are still not hearing what I am saying. I am paraphrasing scripture, so I'm not making anything up. But when you wrote

I think what dragonfly said in the above quote is the exact answer to the Israel question in this thread.

is not what I wrote, and there is no way it can be the meaning of what I wrote, if you would refer to Hosea 1.

Ever since they rejected Christ 2000 years ago ..... God "divorced" Israel .... but he will reconcile with them again some day.

And it will be literal Israel .... He does not have to reconcile the church.

I do not pretend to know the mechanics of how He does it

It remains a mystery to us who have Christ.

It is not about 'ever since they rejected Christ 2000 years ago'. THAT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE which came out of Rome.

It is clear you don't 'know the mechanics' of what God is doing on the earth, because you continue to write your version of what others have conjured up to fill the gaps in their own understanding and then passed on to those who will receive it.

Let's look at what God DID say through Hosea, beginning part way through chapter 1:6:

'... for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

It is worth noting that God specifically rules out human warfare as the route to His salvation. HE will save them.


Isaiah had propesied to Israel the words which the Lord had given him in Isaiah 6:9, 10, 11, 12, 13, effectively confirming the word which Hosea received during the same era - the mouth of two witnesses. (Not sure which came first, though.) The last verse is the same promise (in disguise) as Hosea gives in v 7 (above). The Saviour will come out of Judah.


Then, when the Saviour came, and was beginning His ministry, please read this carefully, He specifically refers to the curse of blindness, and says He can recover sight to blind people.

Please compare Isaiah 61:1 with Luke 4:18. Can you spot the difference or not? Please say if you can't see it.

We know this (blindness) is both physical (in some people) and spiritual (in everyone) because of the healing miracles He did, and how little the disciples understood what He was telling them most of the time.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


These ISRAELITES got it! Paul got it! Paul - more than anyone - explains it is a matter of the heart, not one's ethnicity.

Peter spent his entire evanglistic ministry preaching to Israelites, with the notable exception of Cornelius.

Paul himself was also commissioned by God to preach to Jews, and Acts records many instances of it. In fact, it's a mistake to think that the Roman church was composed only of Gentiles. There were plenty of Jews in Rome who also believed.

But, there were Israelites and Jews who did not believe, and Paul sees that they are like those invited to the table, but refusing to come, therefore the Master orders for those not included in the original invitation, to be compelled to come in (Gentiles) and He does not force the guests who refuse to attend, to attend. He excludes them by their own choice.



To In Christ,

I hope you have read my post to Arnie, here, and see how your 'for ever' really doesn't stack up with scripture.

What Jesus said to the fig tree was not a curse that Israel should not be saved, but rather than no-ne should ever have to eat of their deadness and unfruitfulness ever again. He had new wine in mind, and a table prepared in the presence of their enemies. Like the parable of the tenants of the tower, who killed the heir, He is looking for those who will render HIS fruit to Him in due season. He has in mind the fruit of the Spirit, not the old wine of the flesh. He is adamant that those who will inherit the blessing are the faithful ones who have trusted Him and co-operated with His will. Matthew 7:21.

 

[Purity]

Matt. 19:28 is speaking of when we become saved (regeneration), we shall reign (sit in the throne) and judge with Jesus.

You mean we & the faithful Jews = Israel indeed.

You have purposely omitted Mark 11:14 and instead introduced Joel 1:7 which only agrees that the 'Fig Tree' is a figure of National Israel and then talk about a last year of grace which extended to 40 years to God's longsuffering still waiting.

I see where you have gone amiss.

Mark 11:14

Your attention and doctrine is centred on the words "May no one ever eat fruit from you again"

= feeding (Mal 2:7)

You may have omitted to speak to the "you" in these words of Christ but allow me to define them for you. If you think he was cursing the entire nation of Israel you are clearly mistaken! His cursing was of the priesthood of Israel who had mislead the people of God. Mark 11:17,18 for context and focus!

Don't you know the leaves are for healing? Rev 22:2 and do you not also know the priests and Israel other leaders could not heal?

(Jer 6:14; Jer 8:11; Jer 8:13; Jer 8:15; Jer 8:22; ct Mat 21:14).

I note also you should not confine this picture to natural Israel alone for the gentile is challenged also. The richness of the promise must be supported by the abundance of the fruit does it not? Whether Jew or Greek.

True Men of faith are individuals are they not? God will justify by their approach to the means that Yahweh has made available to them to develop the spiritual qualities He desires to see.

The Israelitish fig tree was barren (Joe 1:7)
The vine was not yielding fruit (Ezek. 15)
The olive was unproductive (Rom 11:17)
The field was weed infested (Heb 6:8; Jer 4:3)
The flock and the herd were poor and scattered (Eze 34:2).

Why you ask? Largely because of famine: "not of water, nor of bread, but of hearing of the word of Yahweh" (Amos 8:11).

Now can God bring his Word to Israel once again to glean fruit? You imply no?

These are all speculations on your part to knit together what you think is truth.

No these a Bible truths which you are ignoring.

Not thinking this was flawed thinking because God had divorced National Israel, and in simpler terms, means to separate or distance Himself from National Israel.

You should study Hosea! Your mindset on Israel would change very quickly and maybe you would see God's plan with Israel.

Are you fooled into thinking God took to Himself a pure wife in Israel? Do you think the gentiles make up that pure wife?


Foolishness!

Unless you or anyone do not see that the condition of 'being blind' by National Israel is 'for ever' (Mark 11:14), until the fullness of the Gentiles come in or until the last of the Gentiles that is to be saved has become saved on the last day (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54), then you will never understand the deeper meaning of other complex scripture texts.

"Until" the fullness of the Gentiles

What then?

Take me to the prophecies concerning Israel after this event - do this and lets see where our dialogue goes!

Look forward to all those verses

 

[dragonfly]

Hi RB,

You know very well that the words for 'bill of divorcement' meant a complete cutting off from marriage (Jeremiah 3:8), and they appear only three times in the whole Bible. The rest of the time, the word is about 'putting away' without the bill of divorcement.

It doesn't matter that Israel walked away from her Husband. Her infidelities justified His action. Matthew 19:9

 

[Purity]

Hi RB,

You know very well that the words for 'bill of divorcement' meant a complete cutting off from marriage (Jeremiah 3:8), and they appear only three times in the whole Bible. The rest of the time, the word is about 'putting away' without the bill of divorcement.

It doesn't matter that Israel walked away from her Husband. Her infidelities justified His action. Matthew 19:9

Carry this through to your infidelities and where are you/we placed?

Why are you/we so quick to forget?

Rom 11:35

"Or who hath first given to him" Paul is citing Job 35:7, to show that God is the author of both creation and salvation. He first proposed; and secondly provided, and therefore is under no obligation to His creatures. Job 41:11 expresses similar principles, and here the Almighty challenges Job on the basis of His omnipotence: "Who hath prevented Me that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is Mine". The Hebrew word translated "prevented" is qadam, and means to project; precede; anticipate. Thus God asks: "Who has anticipated Me; who has conferred favours on Me before I have on him; who has thus laid Me under obligation to him?" The Jewish mind put God under obligation to grant salvation on the basis of his conformity with the Law, and therefore put God in debt to His chosen people. This was certainly a wrong concept, and the question remained unanswered in the Jewish heart.

The Christian heart will do precisely the same but this time claim Grace being their own due.

The forum members here are a long way from understanding the Mind of Yahweh.

At the best, we are still unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10).

Purity

 

[daq]

The Jewish mind put God under obligation to grant salvation on the basis of his conformity with the Law, and therefore put God in debt to His chosen people. This was certainly a wrong concept, and the question remained unanswered in the Jewish heart.

That is a big misconception. The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today. It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God. Eternal life is found therein but comes by solely different means: the promises, faithfulness, the mercy of God, true circumcision of the heart performed by God, (Deuteronomy 30:6). While it may be true that the religious leaders of the time of Yeshua had some faulty interpretations of Torah, and self righteous pride on the part of some, still the Jewish "mind" as a whole, (meaning for the most part) has never done any such thing as to attempt to put God "under obligation" to man and his works, (the fear of the Lord is likewise the beginning of wisdom). In addition the Book of Job is as old as Torah and thought by some to have been written by Moses himself. If this be the case then that would make the Book of Job the "seventh rib" and likewise the seventh rib has "three friends" as we all know from human anatomy class. With respect to what you have learned thus far; the same Book of Job long ago taught the Jews to think the same thing it has likewise taught you to think: that God owes man nothing.

 

[dragonfly]

Fooey. Only a city slicker would think that olives grow on a vine!

Hi Retrobyter,

Jesus said we would know them by their fruit. If when you crush the fruit you get grape juice, it's a vine. If when you crush the fruit you get olive oil, it's an olive tree. If when you crush the fruit you get something else, then it is neither a vine nor an olive, and the eater is entitled to make that call.

As we know, our Lord Jesus Christ embodied all Truth, so if He wants to be called a vine to explain something to His followers, He can do that, even if He exudes oil when He is crushed, for healing.


Hi Purity,

and do you not also know the priests and Israel other leaders could not heal?

(Jer 6:14; Jer 8:11; Jer 8:13; Jer 8:15; Jer 8:22; ct Mat 21:14).

I think you could point out that the reason there was no healing for Judah (Israel had already separated herself), was that there was no TRUTH being preached (apart from Jeremiah). The people were paying lip-service to God in their Temple rituals, while worshipping the queen of heaven openly.

"Until" the fullness of the Gentiles

What then?

The end. The fulness of the Gentiles is where God is heading. By then 'all Israel' will have been saved. That's what Paul is saying. That's why it's imperative that 'Christians' stop giving Jews the impression they have some kind of special dispensation to live how they like until the Lord returns, because once He returns, it will be too late to repent. Today is the day of salvation. Today has been the day of salvation since Pentecost.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi RB,

You know very well that the words for 'bill of divorcement' meant a complete cutting off from marriage (Jeremiah 3:8), and they appear only three times in the whole Bible. The rest of the time, the word is about 'putting away' without the bill of divorcement.

It doesn't matter that Israel walked away from her Husband. Her infidelities justified His action. Matthew 19:9

Sure, I know that. The words in Hebrew are "ceefer k-riytuwt" (pronounced "say-FEHR kuh-ree-TOOT"), but they are NOT found in Hoshea`s prophecy. And, while they might be found of the northern Kingdom of Isra'el in Yirmeyahu's prophecy (Jeremiah 3:8), they are NOT found for Y'hudah, the southern Kingdom of Judah. Hence, the "ten lost tribes" have a different fate than do the Jews. "Ceefer" is found many times in the Tanakh (186 times, according to the Englishman's Concordance); it just simply means a "writing," whether in a scroll ("scroll" or "book") or on a document ("bill," "letter," "register," or "evidence"), but the other word, "k-riytuwt," is found only 4 times in the Tanakh: Deuteronomy 24:1, 3; Isaiah 50:1; and Jeremiah 3:8. However, one mustn't forget that it was quoted in the B'riyt Chadashah (the New Covenant or "New Testament") in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 and translated as the Greek word "apostasion," the masculine form of "apostasia." Thus, the word for "divorce" or "divorcement" is found SEVEN times in the Scriptures, and we MIGHT also include the feminine form IF it weren't already interpreted by most prophecy buffs a different way ("apostasy" or the "falling away").

I might just mention in passing here, that NO ONE "falls away" when it comes to divorce. It's a CHOICE. One doesn't "fall out of love"; he or she just "CHOSE" to quit loving his or her mate. And, as with most sins, errors, mistakes, or bad decisions we make, it usually doesn't happen all at once, but in "baby steps" down through time of a little choice here and a little choice there until he or she "finds himself or herself no longer in love." It's just like in business: if a company is not progressing, then they are regressing! To be stagnant is to be sliding behind! Love between a husband and a wife must be something at which they choose DAILY to work! One has GOT to work at it DAILY! That, and they must decide, preferably at the beginning when they make their vows to God and each other, that DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION! Problems will come; men and women are human, and therefore, they WILL make mistakes and commit sins from time to time. It's inevitable. However, if Yeshua` said to forgive one's BROTHER "seventy times seven times," how much MORE should a husband or wife be able to forgive his or her SPOUSE?

There. Got that off my chest. Now, let's remember the OTHER words of Yeshua`:

Matthew 19:3-12
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness (FIERCENESS) of your hearts suffered (ALLOWED) you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
KJV

Yeshua` voiced the mind of His Father to these men (and women) present there that day.

The "exception," namely "except it be for fornication," is not truly an exception to the statement "whosoever shall put away his wife and shall marry another, committeth adultery." It's an exception to the RESULT, "committing adultery," as though it was something new introduced. In the case of "fornication," adultery is ALREADY involved!

Yeshua`s point is that it is supposed to be "one man, one woman, for LIFE!"

So, now let's talk about the analogy: When Hoshea` was to use the analogy of his marriage to Gomer, Hoshea` represented GOD while Gomer represented Isra'el. Gomer was committing whoredoms (acting as a prostitute or a hooker) just as Isra'el was committing idolatry. Isra'el left GOD'S worship to worship other gods, just like Gomer left Hoshea` to be with other guys. HOWEVER, the analogy breaks down at that point. Although the attitude is the same, there IS no other god in reality!

Isaiah 46:3-10
3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship.
7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble.
8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

So, the "divorce" analogy is not truly with another god, because there ISN'T "another God!" Thus, the permanency of human divorce as prescribed in Moshe's orders,...


Deuteronomy 24:1-4
1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
KJV


... does not apply. There is NO SUCH THING as a "latter husband" in truth in God's case within the analogy. That's why there's a chapter 14 to Hoshea:

Hosea 14:1-9
1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
KJV

 

[Dodo_David]

Shalom, Dodo_David.


Fooey. Only a city slicker would think that olives grow on a vine!

I didn't say that olives grow on a vine.

Either way you look at it, Gentiles are to be grafted in to Jesus, not grafted into the community of Israel.

By the way, in John 14:6, Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
When Jesus said that, he was talking to Jews.

In 1 Timothy 2:5-6 the Apostle Paul writes, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people." So, the one and only mediator between God and Gentiles is the Lord Jesus, not the community of Israel.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

That is a big misconception. The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today. It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God. Eternal life is found therein but comes by solely different means: the promises, faithfulness, the mercy of God, true circumcision of the heart performed by God, (Deuteronomy 30:6). While it may be true that the religious leaders of the time of Yeshua had some faulty interpretations of Torah, and self righteous pride on the part of some, still the Jewish "mind" as a whole, (meaning for the most part) has never done any such thing as to attempt to put God "under obligation" to man and his works, (the fear of the Lord is likewise the beginning of wisdom). In addition the Book of Job is as old as Torah and thought by some to have been written by Moses himself. If this be the case then that would make the Book of Job the "seventh rib" and likewise the seventh rib has "three friends" as we all know from human anatomy class. With respect to what you have learned thus far; the same Book of Job long ago taught the Jews to think the same thing it has likewise taught you to think: that God owes man nothing.

I am TOTALLY in agreement with you regarding this "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd. Daq is right, friends, because the Torah ONLY convinces us of SIN! It's the NEGATIVE side of the argument! The Torah CANNOT be perfectly kept; therefore, all the commandments of the Torah can do is condemn! BUT, Torah is MORE than just a set of commandments! It's a HISTORY LESSON of men and women who trusted God and their trust in God allowed God to justify them, in SPITE of their shortcomings! God made coats of skin for Adam and Chavah; Chanokh (Enoch) walked with God; Noach (Noah) "found grace" in the eyes of God; Avraham (Abraham) was called the "friend" of God (2 Chronicles 20:7); Moshe (Moses) could talk with God personally! These and many more chose to trust God and His promises, and it was that trust that made them His "saints," His "holy ones"; not the keeping of the Law!

_____

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,

Jesus said we would know them by their fruit. If when you crush the fruit you get grape juice, it's a vine. If when you crush the fruit you get olive oil, it's an olive tree. If when you crush the fruit you get something else, then it is neither a vine nor an olive, and the eater is entitled to make that call.

As we know, our Lord Jesus Christ embodied all Truth, so if He wants to be called a vine to explain something to His followers, He can do that, even if He exudes oil when He is crushed, for healing.


Hi Purity,


I think you could point out that the reason there was no healing for Judah (Israel had already separated herself), was that there was no TRUTH being preached (apart from Jeremiah). The people were paying lip-service to God in their Temple rituals, while worshipping the queen of heaven openly.


The end. The fulness of the Gentiles is where God is heading. By then 'all Israel' will have been saved. That's what Paul is saying. That's why it's imperative that 'Christians' stop giving Jews the impression they have some kind of special dispensation to live how they like until the Lord returns, because once He returns, it will be too late to repent. Today is the day of salvation. Today has been the day of salvation since Pentecost.

Regarding the part addressed to me,...

Spoken like a person DEDICATED to the preservation of the combination of analogies! That's crazy talk. So, what happens when you have a tree that bears "twelve manner of fruit every month?" Enough with the ad nauseum analogy garbage! Romans 11 is about the OLIVE TREE, NOT the grape vine! The grape vine was Yeshua`s analogy used in John 15! The two analogies are NOT synonymous, NOR should they be equated or used interchangeably! They were spoken/written at different times by different men in different books for different reasons! IT'S NOT RIGHT TO MIX ANALOGIES!!!

_____

Shalom, Dodo_David.

I didn't say that olives grow on a vine.

Either way you look at it, Gentiles are to be grafted in to Jesus, not grafted into the community of Israel.

By the way, in John 14:6, Jesus says, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
When Jesus said that, he was talking to Jews.

In 1 Timothy 2:5-6 the Apostle Paul writes, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people." So, the one and only mediator between God and Gentiles is the Lord Jesus, not the community of Israel.

No, you didn't. However you DID say, "In the 11th chapter of Romans, the Apostle Paul talks about the grafting of branches into the vine"! That's WRONG! He was NOT talking about the grafting of branches into the vine! He was talking about the grafting of branches into the OLIVE TREE! That's a different plant altogether! One must be grafted into the community of Isra'el AND grafted into Yeshua` BOTH! First of all, the grafting into the Olive Tree analogy is about Gentiles being grafted in AMONG the Isra'elites as HOLY ONES and the ELECTION! THEN, being a part of the Isra'elites to whom Yeshua` was talking in John 15, one can "abide" in the Messiah, as a grape branch abides in the root stock of the vine, and receive His power and nourishment! Different analogies, different meanings!

 

[Dodo_David]

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul writes the following.

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

The claim that Gentiles must be grafted into the community of Israel is not a claim that Jesus made, and it isn't a claim that the Apostles made.

 

[Rex]

Shalom, dragonfly.


Sure, I know that. The words in Hebrew are "ceefer k-riytuwt" (pronounced "say-FEHR kuh-ree-TOOT"), but they are NOT found in Hoshea`s prophecy. And, while they might be found of the northern Kingdom of Isra'el in Yirmeyahu's prophecy (Jeremiah 3:8), they are NOT found for Y'hudah, the southern Kingdom of Judah. Hence, the "ten lost tribes" have a different fate than do the Jews. "Ceefer" is found many times in the Tanakh (186 times, according to the Englishman's Concordance); it just simply means a "writing," whether in a scroll ("scroll" or "book") or on a document ("bill," "letter," "register," or "evidence"), but the other word, "k-riytuwt," is found only 4 times in the Tanakh: Deuteronomy 24:1, 3; Isaiah 50:1; and Jeremiah 3:8. However, one mustn't forget that it was quoted in the B'riyt Chadashah (the New Covenant or "New Testament") in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 and translated as the Greek word "apostasion," the masculine form of "apostasia." Thus, the word for "divorce" or "divorcement" is found SEVEN times in the Scriptures, and we MIGHT also include the feminine form IF it weren't already interpreted by most prophecy buffs a different way ("apostasy" or the "falling away").

I might just mention in passing here, that NO ONE "falls away" when it comes to divorce. It's a CHOICE. One doesn't "fall out of love"; he or she just "CHOSE" to quit loving his or her mate. And, as with most sins, errors, mistakes, or bad decisions we make, it usually doesn't happen all at once, but in "baby steps" down through time of a little choice here and a little choice there until he or she "finds himself or herself no longer in love." It's just like in business: if a company is not progressing, then they are regressing! To be stagnant is to be sliding behind! Love between a husband and a wife must be something at which they choose DAILY to work! One has GOT to work at it DAILY! That, and they must decide, preferably at the beginning when they make their vows to God and each other, that DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION! Problems will come; men and women are human, and therefore, they WILL make mistakes and commit sins from time to time. It's inevitable. However, if Yeshua` said to forgive one's BROTHER "seventy times seven times," how much MORE should a husband or wife be able to forgive his or her SPOUSE?

There. Got that off my chest. Now, let's remember the OTHER words of Yeshua`:

Your absolutely right they were not issued a divorce, for the LORDs name sake he did not divorce them "Jesus" had not yet been born how could he possibly divorce them.

And the different fate? you know as well as I do what that fate was, it's was delivered by Gabriel to Danial, you mentioned it your second paragraph as a passing phrase spoken by Jesus when in reality he was speaking of the 70 x 7 weeks that were cut out for Danial and the Jews "his people.. At which time they had the choice to believe or deny the promise "Jesus". Which leads right back to the topic of this thread.
Shalom Retrobyter
I am sorry If I offended you, Both of us are surly big enough to forgive move forward

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

That is a big misconception. The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today. It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God. Eternal life is found therein but comes by solely different means: the promises, faithfulness, the mercy of God, true circumcision of the heart performed by God, (Deuteronomy 30:6). While it may be true that the religious leaders of the time of Yeshua had some faulty interpretations of Torah, and self righteous pride on the part of some, still the Jewish "mind" as a whole, (meaning for the most part) has never done any such thing as to attempt to put God "under obligation" to man and his works, (the fear of the Lord is likewise the beginning of wisdom). In addition the Book of Job is as old as Torah and thought by some to have been written by Moses himself. If this be the case then that would make the Book of Job the "seventh rib" and likewise the seventh rib has "three friends" as we all know from human anatomy class. With respect to what you have learned thus far; the same Book of Job long ago taught the Jews to think the same thing it has likewise taught you to think: that God owes man nothing.

Agree about the law not providing eternal life etc ..... but on the other hand Israel was expecting a Messiah .... a Kingdom of God .... and they were (still are) expecting salvation and a savior (or think they already have it) .

Do a search of the word "savior" in the OT and it is over 30 times ..,.. eg Psalm 25:5 ...... Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long.

"Salvation" over 70 times. eg 1 Chronicles 16:23 .... Sing to the Lord, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Obviously many Jews missed the savior first time around ..... so would it be fair to say they still expected they had salvation according to the Torah ?

We must also note that they speak of salvation as current tense in the OT (as though they already posses it )

And they refer to God My Savior as present tense in the OT even though no Christ had come yet.

I suppose I am trying to make the point that they missed the salvation of Christ .... but in their minds they probably feel they are "just as saved" as the OT people .

Who knows .... maybe God feels the same way too and will apply OT salvation to them even though they made a horrible mistake by rejecting Christ .

We (Gentile Christians) are told the Jews are enemies of the gospel from our perspective .... but it also says God has not completely rejected them either

Anyone think the OT Israelis will be in the kingdom with us ??? .... I do .

Could the NT (unbelieving Jews) be saved the same way ? .... just some thoughts.

After all .... Paul did call it a mystery