The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[Purity]

That is a big misconception.

The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today.

I never said it did.

John 5:39 applies.

It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God.

While your above comment has no context to my post, I agree with your sentiments. Well the Law if adhered to perfectly is the way to salvation for those who live its spirit.

Eternal life is found therein but comes by solely different means: the promises, faithfulness, the mercy of God, true circumcision of the heart performed by God, (Deuteronomy 30:6). While it may be true that the religious leaders of the time of Yeshua had some faulty interpretations of Torah,

Now you are speaking to the context of my comment :)

and self righteous pride on the part of some, still the Jewish "mind" as a whole, (meaning for the most part) has never done any such thing as to attempt to put God "under obligation" to man and his works, (the fear of the Lord is likewise the beginning of wisdom).

You identified with the issue by saying "as a whole", and it was "as a whole" that they denied the true Gospel, and were destroyed or dragged away into captivity post AD70. By rejecting Christ they clung to the Law and its ability to obligate God in some part, whatever that may be in the minds of the zealots or common Jews.

Some converted but not many.

In addition the Book of Job is as old as Torah and thought by some to have been written by Moses himself.

I tend to agree.

If this be the case then that would make the Book of Job the "seventh rib" and likewise the seventh rib has "three friends" as we all know from human anatomy class. With respect to what you have learned thus far; the same Book of Job long ago taught the Jews to think the same thing it has likewise taught you to think: that God owes man nothing. :)

And thereby confirming my original statement.

The Jewish mind put God under obligation to grant salvation on the basis of his conformity with the Law, and therefore put God in debt to His chosen people. This was certainly a wrong concept, and the question remained unanswered in the Jewish heart.

The Jewish mind with a neck of a donkey felt his natural lineage to Abraham was sufficient to save him!

And in terms of works Jesus replied John 8:39 :)

Enjoy.

Purity

The end. The fulness of the Gentiles is where God is heading. By then 'all Israel' will have been saved. That's what Paul is saying. That's why it's imperative that 'Christians' stop giving Jews the impression they have some kind of special dispensation to live how they like until the Lord returns, because once He returns, it will be too late to repent. Today is the day of salvation. Today has been the day of salvation since Pentecost.

I take this to mean you cannot speak to the order of events from the prophetical Word. A great deal of the Bible must be discarded if you truly hold this view.

But surely you do not need me to define Israel's special place in God's plan and purpose with the earth? You doubt God will choose her again as He did in Egypt? As he will with the Gentile throughout the millennium age?

I chose Israel, and lifted up Mine hand unto the seed of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known unto them in the land of Egypt .. . I wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, among whom they were, in whose sight I made Myself known unto them, in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt" (Eze 20:5-9; cf Eze 20:14)

And yet, we are told of a similar work which must be done again when Israel will be brought "into the wilderness of the people" (Eze 20:35), and be taught to serve the Lord God (Ezek 20:37,40,44).

I pity one who cannot speak to the complete "Oracle" :)

Purity

 

[daq]

We (Gentile Christians) are told the Jews are enemies of the gospel from our perspective ....

As for "Savior" Retrobyter and I have had that conversation and it is Moshiya` not Mashiach, (and yes it is important and no I do not need to restudy it for this conversation). Your statement which I have quoted is your own heathenistic flesh minded misunderstanding of the passage, (which has already been explained to you). Because of the fact that you refuse to believe you must be graffed into the house of Israel, becoming one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Messiah the Lion of Judah, and think to yourself that you get to remain a "Canaanite"-Heathen-Gentile with your own set of beliefs and dogmas concerning what the Scripture teaches, you are likewise forced to conclude that the Jews as a people are your "enemy" according to the passage which you reference. Your mistake runs deep into your understanding and lies beneath layers of blinders but essentially you are professing that Boaz was graffed into Ruth the Moabitess and was willing to become a Moabite to marry her. Nothing could be further from the truth: Ruth was rather graffed into Judah and forsook her nation of Moab with all of its false pagan belief system. Ruth essentially became a Jew. :)

Agree about the law not providing eternal life etc ..... but on the other hand Israel was expecting a Messiah .... a Kingdom of God .... and they were (still are) expecting salvation and a savior (or think they already have it) .

Do a search of the word "savior" in the OT and it is over 30 times ..,.. eg Psalm 25:5 ...... Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long.

"Salvation" over 70 times. eg 1 Chronicles 16:23 .... Sing to the Lord, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Obviously many Jews missed the savior first time around ..... so would it be fair to say they still expected they had salvation according to the Torah ?

We must also note that they speak of salvation as current tense in the OT (as though they already posses it )

And they refer to God My Savior as present tense in the OT even though no Christ had come yet.

Likewise here you are misunderstanding the Scripture and especially certain Isaiah passages:

1) The heavenly Father is the only Savior.
2) The right arm or "shoulder" of the Father is Salvation.
3) Yeshua is the right arm or "shoulder" of the heavenly Father.

John 4:22 KJV
22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

In addition Paul does not say the Jews are "partially blinded" or "hardened" but rather Israel, (O Israel!). :lol:

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul writes the following.



Quote

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

The claim that Gentiles must be grafted into the community of Israel is not a claim that Jesus made, and it isn't a claim that the Apostles made.

You are ignoring the clear emphatic statement of Yeshua already quoted in this thread:

Matthew 15:24 KJV
24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 RSV
24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In addition you are ignoring the very passage which you have quoted to support your statement:

Ephesians 2:11-19 KJV
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, [both the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision] and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both [the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision] unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

You cannot say that Paul is teaching a different Gospel then what Yeshua emphatically states or you have essentially cut yourself off. Paul does no such thing so therefore it is you that has imagined another Gospel. The commandments and ordinances which kept the "Uncircumcision" separated from the "Circumcision", the "wall of partition" if you will, was not the entire Torah but rather the same which kept the Moabites, (of the flesh) from entering into the congregation of the saints, (such as even Ruth the Moabitess which reveals the ordinance was supernal to begin with). It is the flesh understandings of certain ordinances which have been removed because of the parables, sayings, teachings, doctrines, and Testimony of Yeshua which he gave his blood and body on the Cross to confirm.

Deuteronomy 23:3 KJV
3. An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

Deuteronomy 23:7-8 KJV
7. Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.
8. The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the Lord in their third generation.

This ordinance is "done away" only according to the fleshly understanding because the Gentiles now have access and the open Door of Messiah, through Messiah, to become Israelites graffed into the commonwealth of Israel. However, the same ordinance according to the Spirit remains and therefore no Moabite, or Canaanite, or heathen, (in supernal and spiritual terms) is allowed inside the spiritual Holy City of above. If you think you are already there on a sinners prayer having arrived, and yet remain a Gentile in your thinking, then perhaps it would be wise to rethink your mindset and what you have been taught concerning these things. :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, David.

In Ephesians 2:11-18, the Apostle Paul writes the following.



The claim that Gentiles must be grafted into the community of Israel is not a claim that Jesus made, and it isn't a claim that the Apostles made.

You're missing the very point that the Apostle (Sent-one) PAUL was making in the VERY VERSES you just quoted! Allow me to walk you through it:


Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, / THEREFORE, KEEP THIS IN MIND:
that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, / You who were once considered prejudicially as "Goyim"
who are called Uncircumcision by / who are called the "Uncircumcision" by
that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; / those who prejudicially call themselves the "Circumcision" by a human operation;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, / That during that time, you were without a Messiah,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and / being foreigners from the citizenship of Yisra'el, and
strangers from the covenants of promise, / unfamiliar with the promised-based covenants,
having no hope, and / having no assurance, and
without God in the world (Greek: kosmos). / without the true God in your society.
13 But now in Christ Jesus / However, now in the Messiah Yeshua`
ye who sometimes were far off / you all who at one time were SO far removed
are made nigh by the blood of Christ. / are now made close by the Messiah's blood sacrifice.
14 For he is our peace, / For He is our peace treaty
who hath made both one, and / who has made both parties into one group, and
hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; / has torn down the separating fence in the middle between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, / having in His flesh abolished the animosity
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; / which are the Torah commandments contained in strict procedures;
for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; / in order to make one new man out of two within Himself, so making a treaty;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God / and so that He might make it possible for God to exchange places with us both
in one body by the cross, / in His sole body by the cross-based sacrifice,
having slain the enmity thereby: / having killed the animosity between us by that sacrifice:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and / Yeshua` came and heralded a peace treaty to you who were so far removed, and
to them that were nigh. / also to those who were already close.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. / For through Him, we both have access by the one Holy Spirit to God the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but / Thus, NOW, you all are no longer unfamiliar and foreigners, but you all are
fellowcitizens with the saints, and / co-citizens with the Holy Ones
of the household of God; / of God's extended family;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, / and are built upon the bedrock of the Sent-Ones and the Prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; / Yeshua` the Messiah Himself being the top angle;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together / between whom all the building, compactly organized,
groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: / grows into a sacred temple in [our] Master:
22 In whom ye also are builded together / In Whom also you all are constructed
for an habitation of God through the Spirit. / into God-in-Spirit's dwelling place.
KJV

So, sandwiched between the Sent-ones and Prophets on the bottom and the Messiah on the top, we now ALL fit in together into ONE construction of a Temple to God who is a Spirit! Also notice that the ISRA'ELITES are the "ones who were already close" and the GENTILES are the "ones who were so far away!" It was the GENTILES who were "foreigners" and "strangers," unfamiliar with the Torah and the Prophets and the Writings. Thus, it was the GENTILES who were ignorant of both the Scriptures and the God of the Scriptures. Furthermore, Paul said that it was THEY, the GENTILES of Ephesus in particular, who were brought close and were made co-citizens WITH the holy ones, the Isra'elites! Within the Messiah - in Christ, if you prefer - we are all now treated equally!

The key here is to understand that "holy" - Greek "hagion" and Hebrew "qodesh" - does NOT mean that one is "righteous." It means that one is "SINGLED OUT." Isra'elites are NOT "holy" because they are "righteous!" HEAVENS, NO! They are "holy" because GOD TOOK NOTICE OF THEM AS A PEOPLE and GOD IS RIGHTEOUS! HE SINGLED THEM OUT AS THE GENETIC LINE FROM WHICH WOULD COME HIS SON'S BODY!

And, you're right about Yeshua` not making that claim; Yeshua` was only sent to the HOUSE OF ISRA'EL! He dealt favorably with a few Goyim who came to Him and showed their trust in Him, but that was not His mission!


Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him (bowed to Him/prostrated herself to Him), saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJV

Furthermore, Yeshua` only sent His representatives TO the Isra'elites:


Matthew 10:5-7
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans (half-breeds) enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
KJV

So, Yeshua`s mission during His first advent was ONLY to the Isra'elites. And, therefore, it wasn't the mission of those sent, the Apostles, either!

This passage in Ephesians is all about PREJUDICE!

It was no longer to be ...

First, the Isra'elites
Last, the Gentiles

However, neither is it now to be ...

First, the Gentiles
Last, the Isra'elites.

Now it is to be ...

First, Isra'elites/Gentiles.

Furthermore, we who are SO good at being prejudiced in our viewpoints should not INTRODUCE A NEW PREJUDICE into the works!

It is also not to be ...

First, Isra'elites/Gentiles in the Messiah
Second, Isra'elites/Gentiles outside of the Messiah!

That's just as much a prejudice in a different cut as the original prejudice that the Isra'elites, particularly the Jews, had against the Gentiles! God is trying to put an end to ALL of it!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

, you are likewise forced to conclude that the Jews as a people are your "enemy" according to the passage which you reference. Your mistake runs deep into your understanding and lies beneath layers of blinders

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

 

[daq]

Your statement which I have quoted is your own heathenistic flesh minded misunderstanding of the passage, (which has already been explained to you). Because of the fact that you refuse to believe you must be graffed into the house of Israel, becoming one of the lost sheep of the house of Israel in Messiah the Lion of Judah, and think to yourself that you get to remain a "Canaanite"-Heathen-Gentile with your own set of beliefs and dogmas concerning what the Scripture teaches, you are likewise forced to conclude that the Jews as a people are your "enemy" according to the passage which you reference.

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

Again, you are out of context:

Romans 11:25-28 KJV
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [GSN#1484 ethnos - heathen] be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; [GSN#1484 ethnos] immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Original Strong's Ref. #1484
Romanized ethnos
Pronounced eth'-nos
probably from GSN1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication, pagan):
KJV--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The Greek word "ethnos" is employed in the same manner as is "gowy" or "goy" in the Hebrew. One cannot tell whether "Gentile" or "Heathen" is intended except but by the context. And, again, you have already been painstakingly shown the context from the Book of Romans previously in this thread but apparently you prefer to ignore the work laid out for you to your own detriment and misunderstanding. You lump the Jews and Israel together so as to validate the flesh mindset and avoid your own responsibilities and requirements to become a lost sheep of the house of Israel and be graffed into the Olive Tree of God like the Canaanite woman of Tyre from Matthew 15, (who was willing to even be a dog sitting under the table of the Master waiting for crumbs of truth to fall from the table of his doctrines). So when Paul says "Israel" you here nothing but "the Jews" and then proceed to imagine Jews as your enemy. However, you are incorrect, Paul does not say that the Jews suffer from partial blindness or hardness but rather Israel, (O Israel!). These things are Spirit and you will never see them so long as you continue to walk according to the flesh. :)

 

[Rex]

Good point daq, looking at the error of disagreement from a different perspective.

I suppose we cold thank Scofield for blurring the distinction between Jews and Israel as being interchangeable. The Prophets never made case that Judea was Israel. Much less those that teach the same even going so far as presuming Israel was reunited back into Judea before Christ

The Division was of God​

The SOUTHERN NATION, which consisted of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, was known as "Judah," "The House of Judah" or "The Jews." The capital of the SOUTHERN NATION was Jerusalem. If I had more time, I would quote you the Scriptures which show that this division of the Tribes of Israel into two nations was Divinely Predetermined, Divinely Predicted, Divinely Emphasized, Divinely Maintained, Divinely Accomplished, Divinely Explained, Divinely Approved. The Scriptures show that this division into Two Kingdoms had behind it and controlling it, the fore-ordaining eternal councils of God; and it took place for great, beneficent, well-defined and Divine reasons.

In Jeremiah the third chapter, Israel is five times called "Backsliding Israel," a term never once applied to Judah, and Judah is four times called "Treacherous Judah," a term not once applied to Israel. I will read you this passage: "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby BACKSLIDING Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also" (Jeremiah 3:8). Ask those who declare that Israel and Judah are the same people to read that passage, analyzing it in the light of their belief. And there are many such passages showing the clear distinction between Israel and Judah. There are more than 2,000 references to Israel in the Bible that have no reference whatever to the Jews. On the other hand, there are more than five hundred references to Judah that have no reference to Israel, and yet there are those continually trying to tell us there is no distinction between Israel and Judah, and continually refer to Israel as Jews, and even change the name of Judah to Israel. It is absurd as to use the words America and England interchangeably.

Here is another quotation for them to explain: "Backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah." Make Israel and Judah one and the same people referred to, and the statement becomes ridiculous. Many today are evidently unacquainted with the fact that, according to Biblical history, there was not a single "Jew" known as such upon the face of the earth earlier than 600 years after the death of Moses, or about 1,500 years after Abraham was born. There were, of course, Hebrews and Israelites long before that time; Abraham and Isaac were Hebrews; but they were neither Israelites nor Jews. The 12 sons of Jacob were Hebrews and Israelites, but they were not Jews. The same may be said of Moses and Aaron, of the people of the Northern Kingdom, of Elijah and Elisha. To avoid confusion over the expression "Israel" it is necessary to determine in which sense it is used in any particular passage, whether it means: (1) "The whole of the Twelve Tribes; (2) Or the House of Judah alone as being a part of the Twelve Tribes; (3) Or the Ten-Tribed Kingdom."

Ten Tribed Israel never called Jews​

Nothing can be more unscriptural than to call all Israelites "Jews;" it is as absurd as calling all Americans Californians.[6] Most Israelites are not Jews because they are the descendants of the other tribes of Israel. There is just as much reason for calling all Israelites "Danites" or "Gadites" or "Ephraimites" as there is for calling them Judahites or "Jews." It is just as reasonable to call all "Jews" "Danites" as it is to call all "Danites" "Jews." The term Jew is never used until more than a thousand years after Abraham. It appears for the first time in II Kings 16:6, where we are told that the King of Israel, together with the King of Assyria, made war against the King of Judah.[6] Now since in this passage Israel, one Kingdom, made war against the Jews, another Kingdom, how can they both be the Jews? The Scriptures never once refer to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel as "The Jews;" neither past, present, nor future. The term "The Jews" is never, in God’s Word, applied to the 12 Tribes, collectively, or to the Ten-Tribed House of Israel.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Again, you are out of context:

Romans 11:25-28 KJV
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles [GSN#1484 ethnos - heathen] be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Galatians 1:15-16 KJV
15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; [GSN#1484 ethnos] immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Original Strong's Ref. #1484
Romanized ethnos
Pronounced eth'-nos
probably from GSN1486; a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe; specially, a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication, pagan):
KJV--Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

The Greek word "ethnos" is employed in the same manner as is "gowy" or "goy" in the Hebrew. One cannot tell whether "Gentile" or "Heathen" is intended except but by the context. And, again, you have already been painstakingly shown the context from the Book of Romans previously in this thread but apparently you prefer to ignore the work laid out for you to your own detriment and misunderstanding. You lump the Jews and Israel together so as to validate the flesh mindset and avoid your own responsibilities and requirements to become a lost sheep of the house of Israel and be graffed into the Olive Tree of God like the Canaanite woman of Tyre from Matthew 15, (who was willing to even be a dog sitting under the table of the Master waiting for crumbs of truth to fall from the table of his doctrines). So when Paul says "Israel" you here nothing but "the Jews" and then proceed to imagine Jews as your enemy. However, you are incorrect, Paul does not say that the Jews suffer from partial blindness or hardness but rather Israel, (O Israel!). These things are Spirit and you will never see them so long as you continue to walk according to the flesh. :)

I plead guilty to sometimes generically call Israel "Jews" but otherwise we are on the same page as far as Romans 11:25-28

But at the same time Judah is a part of Israel so we should not try to exclude them either.

 

[Rex]

But at the same time Judah is a part of Israel so we should not try to exclude them either.

Then why does Jer make the distinction between them? I answered that question to Reto

Post 519 http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18010-the-proper-and-harmonious-interpretation-of-romans-1125-split-from-another-topic/page-18#entry204241
You sound like Purity agree but fall right back into disagreement with nothing to reenforce it. What your really saying is Israel and Judea are interchangeable terms, you can not even properly read the prophets If you don't understand THEIR terms and definitions.

 

[PeterAV]

I have no idea what Romans 11:25 has to do with a temple but in the mean time here is something to think about
Some People can take one verse and re-translate the entire new testament and prophesy as well

The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25


Romans 11: 20 says "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Who are they? Paul says in verse 14, "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them whih are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Most of the Jews of Paul's time rejected Christ and they were broken off. Now Paul says in Romans 11: 25-26 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Who is "Israel" in verse 26?

Dispensationalists say in the Bible Israel must always be physical Israel, not some spiritual construct. Therefore by dispensationalist definition, Israel in verse 26 must be physical Israel and therefore Paul is predicting that at some time all physical Israel will be saved.

This interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 20 that the Jews were broken off because of unbelief.

If all Israel is to be saved, then Israel here refers to Israel as being all of God's people who are saved, no matter what their race, Jew or Gentile. This interpretation is consistent with what Paul says in
Romans 2: 28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

And this interpretation of Romans 11: 25-26 fits what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Paul is pointing out that after physical Israel was reborn, or the small remnant of physical Israel who were more faithful were translated into Christians as spiritual Israel race no longer matters in the eyes of God. And remember what Paul also says in Galatians 4: 22-26, "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other
by a freewoman.

23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Not only was race as a measure of acceptance by God done away with at the Cross, but the Cross opened up Christians to receive the Holy Spirit and operate in the Spirit. Operating in the Spirit, Christians are not in bondage to the old law of Mount Sinai. Christians are in Jerusalem which is free, not literal physical Jerusalem


Now you have two choices you can choose to believe the harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25

Or you can take your black sharpie and start censoring the verses,
Romans 2:28-29
Gal 3:28
Gal 4:22-26
You don't need them any longer
And a list of others I will prove including the OT


If you have not removed your head from your @$$ yet

Please take your black sharpie and remove Romans 9:6-9
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor
because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On
the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be
reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”


Remove Matthew 3:9
and Luke 3:8 also

As to Abraham's promise
In Gen 12:3 remove all the families of the earth shall be blessed
Gen 18:18 do the same and in Gen 22:18 and as well in Gen 26:4

Why!! because you believe the promise to be for the Jews or Israel alone so scratch out the reference to the families and the nations of the world. God only loves the Jews LOL.

Some good Biblical points there, Rex, Thanx!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Purity,

I am still waiting for your answers to my questions, if you would kindly give some clarifications?

The first is in post # 498.

1.

So, those Jews who believe, do so with 'the faith of God'. Is this the 'natural Israel' you have in mind, the ones who believed? Or are you thinking of the ones who didn't believe, who aren't going to inherit anything? They are 'natural Israel', too. Which one are you following?

The second is in post # 506.

2.

It doesn't look good for the Gentile believer does it Dragon?

What do you mean? (I have no idea!) I need a definition of 'it' as well as why you mention 'the Gentile believer'. Thanks. :)



Post # 512

Carry this through to your infidelities and where are you/we placed?

Why are you/we so quick to forget?

Rom 11:35

"Or who hath first given to him" Paul is citing Job 35:7, to show that God is the author of both creation and salvation. He first proposed; and secondly provided, and therefore is under no obligation to His creatures. Job 41:11 expresses similar principles, and here the Almighty challenges Job on the basis of His omnipotence: "Who hath prevented Me that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is Mine". The Hebrew word translated "prevented" is qadam, and means to project; precede; anticipate. Thus God asks: "Who has anticipated Me; who has conferred favours on Me before I have on him; who has thus laid Me under obligation to him?" The Jewish mind put God under obligation to grant salvation on the basis of his conformity with the Law, and therefore put God in debt to His chosen people. This was certainly a wrong concept, and the question remained unanswered in the Jewish heart.

The Christian heart will do precisely the same but this time claim Grace being their own due.

The forum members here are a long way from understanding the Mind of Yahweh.

At the best, we are still unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10).

Purity

By all means, ask questions, and speak for yourself, (about forgetting), but I don't appreciate having words put into my mouth. All I did was report what scripture tells us, confirmed by Jesus during His earthly ministry. It's history. No need to get touchy about events that are past.

The Jewish mind put God under obligation to grant salvation on the basis of his conformity with the Law, and therefore put God in debt to His chosen people.

As daq said, this is not the way to interpret the way the Law worked. But the Law was essential to by kept by Israel if he was ever to become a holy nation, bound by the covenant with God, to God. But I don't agree with daq's following comment,

The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today. It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God.

for God was already obligated by His covenant with Abraham - to provide a sacrifice. (Remember Galatians 3:19?
'The law was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made'.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Both Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews, mention the importance of having kept the law to those who had believed.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith... 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Do you see from v 16 above, that 'all the seed' actually refers to the 'many nations' of which Abraham would become father, as well as the Israelites?

Why? Because he received the promise before he was circumcised. To confirm the importance of the law, though, the writer to the Hebrews gives 'the promise' its context including the effect of the law on those who kept it:

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

'They which are called' matches Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So the law did have a huge role to play in testing the hearts of those who found themselves 'strangers and pilgrims on the earth'.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

... 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 12:23 '... the spirits of just men made perfect'.


If you knew that already, it didn't shine through what you wrote. <_<


Hi RB,

but they are NOT found in Hoshea`s prophecy

I didn't say they were, but Jeremiah was formalising what had been going on through the times of earlier prophets like Isaiah and Hosea. I was not focusing on what happened next in Hosea's personal story.

Also, I don't think I was mixing analogies. Each on has their place, I agree, but we are not going agree while you tinker with Daniel's prophecy that Messiah would be cut off. I believe He was completely cut off and there is no reason from the gospel accounts to think that He wasn't.

For this reason, I maintain that the olive tree is not national Israel (or Israel of the flesh) but it is the one from whom all healing (oil) comes - Messiah. He is the root that is holy, that bears the branches (and the wounds by which they are) grafted into Him, whether of Israelite or Gentile origin.

What is important about the analogies of the different kinds of tree, is that He doesn't distinguish them by name, in Matthew 7, where He is intent on teaching the principle that the kind of fruit tells you want kind of tree it is (or bush it is). There should be spiritual fruit on both the olive and the vine.



Hi Rex,

Your absolutely right they were not issued a divorce, for the LORDs name sake he did not divorce them "Jesus" had not yet been born how could he possibly divorce them.

I think you may not quite agree with this statement now, because of a subsequent post you've made, but I wanted to acknowledge your comment because the context I gave in my post, was the very distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The end of Isaiah 6 fortells that the holy seed will come from Judah, and that is exactly what is played out after the exile, when Judah leads the return to the land.

Also, there is a big difference between God accepting the spiritual adultery which Israel had chosen to commit, and for that reason making a formal separation from her; and, any suggestion whatever that He had stopped loving Israel. Far from it. He humbled Himself again and again to call out to her, and she 'would not' return to Him. I think this is very different from Deuteronomy 24, where a flesh relationship is being given boundaries.


Hello again, Purity,

I take this to mean you cannot speak to the order of events from the prophetical Word. A great deal of the Bible must be discarded if you truly hold this view.

But surely you do not need me to define Israel's special place in God's plan and purpose with the earth? You doubt God will choose her again as He did in Egypt? As he will with the Gentile throughout the millennium age?

Well, it depends how many times you think prophecy can be fulfilled, before you will finally acknowledge it is never going to be fulfilled again. I am taken with the phrase, 'And when the fulness of time was come...' because I believe there are plenty of triangulation points in scripture and history by which to determine whether an event has happened and it's over, or, we are still waiting for a future fulfilment.

It seems to me that much of the so-called unfulfilled prophecy being watched for by some Christians is not going to happen until the resurrection. But nevertheless they have made a whole narrative to compensate for their unbelief. They don't really have their eyes trained on the heavenly city. They don't embrace the cross with gratitude for the death that Messiah died for us, to free us from the power of sin and death, because they don't think it should affect them adversely in this life. They are focused on taking all they can get in this life, just in case there is no 'next' life still to come. That may sound a bit sweeping, so don't think I'm unaware of the exceptions, some of whom are in our midst here; for they are not the majority.

 

[Rex]

Hi Rex,

I think you may not quite agree with this statement now, because of a subsequent post you've made, but I wanted to acknowledge your comment because the context I gave in my post, was the very distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The end of Isaiah 6 fortells that the holy seed will come from Judah, and that is exactly what is played out after the exile, when Judah leads the return to the land.

Also, there is a big difference between God accepting the spiritual adultery which Israel had chosen to commit, and for that reason making a formal separation from her; and, any suggestion whatever that He had stopped loving Israel. Far from it. He humbled Himself again and again to call out to her, and she 'would not' return to Him. I think this is very different from Deuteronomy 24, where a flesh relationship is being given boundaries.

I don't understand what point your making I was repling to Retro post he replied to you, that the Lord didn't divorce Judah for the simple reason the Messiah hadn't been born.
And the terms were different as well they were allowed the time unto the coming of the Messiah in Danial 9:24-27 at that time many divorced themselves by not believing, but the grace was limited to 70 x 7 weeks then they needed to make a choice about believing unto Jesus.

I don't see how this differs in subsequent post I've made, unless you have misunderstood something i have said.

 

[daq]

As daq said, this is not the way to interpret the way the Law worked. But the Law was essential to by kept by Israel if he was ever to become a holy nation, bound by the covenant with God, to God. But I don't agree with daq's following comment,

The Law never had anything to do with "salvation" as it is understood by most of Christianity today. It is a "straw man" argument used by the anti-Torah crowd to say that "there is now a better way to salvation" when in fact the Law does not promise "salvation" or "eternal life" for keeping or guarding the commandments perfectly by our own works and thereby obligating God.

for God was already obligated by His covenant with Abraham - to provide a sacrifice. (Remember Galatians 3:19?
'The law was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made'.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Both Paul, and the writer to the Hebrews, mention the importance of having kept the law to those who had believed.

Perhaps you did not fully grasp what I said: I did not say that the Law was not to be kept-guarded but rather that it was not the means to obtain "salvation" by ones works and therefore obligate God. Likewise you do realize that whatever you read concerning father Abraham was written by Moses right? It is likewise Torah. The Law is our "crossing guard" to lead us into Messiah. Learn all of it with prayers, supplications, repentance washing, and do not worry so much about understanding all of it, (because you cannot) and when Messiah returns he will blow on you and open your mind to the full understanding of Torah and all the Scriptures, (and the vail which hides the true understanding of the Old Testament will be removed in Yeshua, 2 Corinthians 3:14-16). But how can the Master do such things if one is not willing to input the information first? Can a man enter into only half of the kingdom of heaven? or are there many that have rather deceived themselves into thinking it is no longer necessary and obsolete? :)

 

[Purity]

So, those Jews who believe, do so with 'the faith of God'. Is this the 'natural Israel' you have in mind, the ones who believed? Or are you thinking of the ones who didn't believe, who aren't going to inherit anything? They are 'natural Israel', too. Which one are you following?

Lets deal with the first part.

Was the Apostle Paul a natural Jew?
Did the Apostle Paul believe?

If you have answered yes to both of these we agree.

The second part of your question is rather simple. They are natural Jews and yes they do not inherit anything from God except the life they were given - dust they were and dust they became - no memory of them will be remembered because of unbelief...no one can inherit anything of God without belief.

The last question is a good question Dragon - it must needs be that God's witness still be in the earth, mustn't it?

I mean, when have they ever ceased to witness the longsuffering of God in the earth - can you provide a date? If you believe God is wash His hands of Israel today by all means put up the quote - as we have seen the fig tree was a poor example wasn't it.

What do you mean? (I have no idea!) I need a definition of 'it' as well as why you mention 'the Gentile believer'

Well if only a fraction of the warnings of the Epistles come to pass many gentile converts will be likened to Rom 11:20NET

But of course Rom 11:32 also applies doesn't it? In the end Heb 3:18,19 must be answered of both Jew and Gentile.


Retro Said

Spoken like a person DEDICATED to the preservation of the combination of analogies! That's crazy talk. So, what happens when you have a tree that bears "twelve manner of fruit every month?" Enough with the ad nauseum analogy garbage! Romans 11 is about the OLIVE TREE, NOT the grape vine! The grape vine was Yeshua`s analogy used in John 15! The two analogies are NOT synonymous, NOR should they be equated or used interchangeably! They were spoken/written at different times by different men in different books for different reasons! IT'S NOT RIGHT TO MIX ANALOGIES!!!

This was laughable...would you like me to prove the analogies are related? Could this be a rerun of the oracle debacle?

Agree about the law not providing eternal life etc ..... but on the other hand Israel was expecting a Messiah .... a Kingdom of God .... and they were (still are) expecting salvation and a savior (or think they already have it) .

Do a search of the word "savior" in the OT and it is over 30 times ..,.. eg Psalm 25:5 ...... Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long.

"Salvation" over 70 times. eg 1 Chronicles 16:23 .... Sing to the Lord, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.

Obviously many Jews missed the savior first time around ..... so would it be fair to say they still expected they had salvation according to the Torah ?

We must also note that they speak of salvation as current tense in the OT (as though they already posses it )

And they refer to God My Savior as present tense in the OT even though no Christ had come yet.

I suppose I am trying to make the point that they missed the salvation of Christ .... but in their minds they probably feel they are "just as saved" as the OT people .

Who knows .... maybe God feels the same way too and will apply OT salvation to them even though they made a horrible mistake by rejecting Christ .

We (Gentile Christians) are told the Jews are enemies of the gospel from our perspective .... but it also says God has not completely rejected them either

Anyone think the OT Israelis will be in the kingdom with us ??? .... I do .

Could the NT (unbelieving Jews) be saved the same way ? .... just some thoughts.

After all .... Paul did call it a mystery

These are good thoughts and I am impressed with your understanding, not overstated, but humble and contrite.

To him that has ears let him hear!

Dragon said this:

Well, it depends how many times you think prophecy can be fulfilled,

To this assume you believe only once! If so, you would be incorrect.

before you will finally acknowledge it is never going to be fulfilled again. I am taken with the phrase, 'And when the fulness of time was come...' because I believe there are plenty of triangulation points in scripture and history by which to determine whether an event has happened and it's over, or, we are still waiting for a future fulfilment.

It seems to me that much of the so-called unfulfilled prophecy being watched for by some Christians is not going to happen until the resurrection.

I agree with your last point and for good reason! Rev 10 is one such example.

But nevertheless they have made a whole narrative to compensate for their unbelief. They don't really have their eyes trained on the heavenly city. They don't embrace the cross with gratitude for the death that Messiah died for us, to free us from the power of sin and death, because they don't think it should affect them adversely in this life. They are focused on taking all they can get in this life, just in case there is no 'next' life still to come. That may sound a bit sweeping, so don't think I'm unaware of the exceptions, some of whom are in our midst here; for they are not the majority.

Let me ask you this.

"For I am with thee (Israel), saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of "all" nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished"

Jer 30:11; cf. Jer 16:24 Lev 26:44; Deut 4:27.

Do you believe this verse?
Do you think its fully fulfilled, if so explain how?
Do you know into which Nations God has scattered His people?

Does this sound like a God who will give up on His people? if so, explain the exception.

A reality which few Christians like to discuss is how so many other peoples and cultures have flourished during such time as Israel as a nation had disappeared from the face of the planet. Combined the fact of their scattering into all nations, the fact of Israel's preservation is remarkable, and is evidence of the deliberate care by God over His people.

O and I must adjoin this with "for His names sake"

Purity

 

[daq]

These are good thoughts and I am impressed with your understanding, not overstated, but humble and contrite.

To him that has ears let him hear!

He that hath two ears buy a sword; he that hath an ear let him hear . . . :lol:

 

[Purity]

He that hath two ears buy a sword; he that hath an ear let him hear . . . :lol:

I like your sense of humour daq. Matt 11:15;13:9,43 and so on.

Should we change your name to Malchus or Simon Peter?

 

[Rex]

Some good Biblical points there, Rex, Thanx!

Your welcome Peter
I was always under the impression the Spirit of the Lord doesn't contradict itself, some people seem to simply ignore verses that conflict with there personal understanding like that's proper hermeneutics, and expect you to just get over it.

If there is an apparent contradiction I know it's my understanding not the words I'm reading.
It's amazing that people do this even when what they believe contradicts the basic message of salvation, not simply this topic but others as well. That's the very first thing that enters my mind "why that's in complete contrast to the message of salvation"

He that hath two ears buy a sword; he that hath an ear let him hear . . . :lol:

that is funny
Now I know why she can't add the "s" to oracle, shes using it as an earring :lol:

 

[Purity]

Now I know why she can't add the "s" to oracle, shes using it as an earring

Still hurting Rex? Stop licking the wounds else they wont heal :)

She's a he and "who the hell uses the word Oracle?"

 

[Rex]

Stone is heavy and sand a burden
but provocation from a fool is heavier than both.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, Arnie.


Don't fall for the lies that someone's been telling you. God did NOT "divorce Isra'el!" Are you meshuggah?! Re-read the story of Howsheea`; he didn't divorce Gomer, either! She WALKED AWAY! She LEFT HIM! That's a HUGE difference! It's a SEPARATION, NOT a DIVORCE!


Hosea 3:1-5
1 Adonai said to me, “Go once more, and show love to [this] wife [of yours] who has been loved by her boyfriend, to this adulteress — just as Adonai loves the people of Isra’el, even though they turn to other gods and love the raisin cakes [offered to them].”

2 So I bought her back for myself with fifteen pieces of silver and eight bushels of barley . 3 Then I told her, “You are to remain in seclusion for a long time and be mine. You are not to be a prostitute, and you are not to be with any other man; and I won’t come in to have sex with you either.” 4 For the people of Isra’el are going to be in seclusion for a long time without a king, prince, sacrifice, standing-stone, ritual vest or household gods. 5 Afterwards, the people of Isra’el will repent and seek Adonai their God and David their king; they will come trembling to Adonai and his goodness in the acharit-hayamim.
CJB

Hosea 6:11-7:10
6:11 For you, too, Y’hudah,a harvest will come!
“When I restore the fortunes of my people,

7:1 when I am ready to heal Isra’el,
the crimes of Efrayim confront me,
along with the wickedness of Shomron.
For they keep practicing deceit;
thieves break in, bands of robbers raid outside.
2 They never say to themselves
that I remember all their evil.
Now their own deeds surround them;
they are right in front of me.
3 They make the king glad with their wickedness,
and the leaders with their lies.
4 They are all adulterers,
like an oven heated by the baker,
who doesn’t stoke the fire
from kneading time till the dough has risen.

5 “On their king’s special day
the leaders inflame him with wine,
and he joins hands with scorners,
6 who ready themselves like an oven
while they wait for their chance.
Their baker sleeps through the night;
then in the morning it bursts into flame.
7 They are all as hot as an oven,
and they devour their judges.
All their kings have fallen;
not one of them calls out to me.

8 “Efrayim mixes himself with the peoples,
Efrayim has become a half-baked cake.
9 Foreigners have eaten up his strength,
but he doesn’t know it;
yes, gray hairs appear on him here and there,
but he doesn’t know it.
10 The pride of Isra’el testifies in his face,
but in spite of all this they haven’t returned
to Adonai their God or sought him.
CJB

Hosea 14:5-10
5(4) “I will heal their disloyalty,
I will love them freely;
for my anger has turned from him.
6(5) I will be like dew to Isra’el;
he will blossom like a lily
and strike roots like the L’vanon.
7(6) His branches will spread out,
his beauty be like an olive tree
and his fragrance like the L’vanon.
8(7) Again they will live in his shade and raise grain;
they will blossom like a vine,
and its aroma will be
like the wine of the L’vanon.
9(8) Efrayim [will say], ‘What have I
to do any more with idols?’
And I, I answer and affirm him;
I am like a fresh, green cypress tree;
your fruitfulness comes from me.”
10(9) Let the wise understand these things,
and let the discerning know them.
For the ways of Adonai are straight,
And the righteous walk in them,
but in them sinners stumble.
CJB

God doesn't want us divorcing our spouses and He has never divorced Isra'el, either.

How ignorant can some people get?

This Jeremiah Scripture is God talking to the ten tribed kingdom of Israel AFTER He separated nation into two separate kingdoms...

Jer 3:8-11
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto Me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
(KJV)

The part in bold red is ONLY about the northern kingdom of the "house of Israel", i.e., the TEN TRIBES that God Himself separated from the "house of Judah" in the south.

The part in bold blue is ONLY about the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah", which was historically made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some remnants of the other tribes that lived or moved south at the split.

AFTER God split Israel into TWO separate kingdoms, ONLY the ten tribed kingdom in the north was known as "Israel", or the "kingdom of Israel" in various Scriptures after... the split of 1 Kings 11-12. The southern kingdom was known as the "kingdom of Judah" in God's Word.

So here, in Jeremiah 3, "Israel" is put only for the ten tribes in the northern kingdom with Ephraim as head over them, and "Judah" is put here for the southern kingdom under Judah as head.


God gave the ten tribed kingdom a "bill of divorce" (spiritual sense) because of the false worship they had fallen into. That's how God used the idea of "adultery" and the "harlot" there, in the spiritual sense applied to their false idol worship (gold calves setup by king Jeroboam of the house of Israel).

But then God said "Israel" (ten tribes) justified herself more than "Judah", because Judah saw the house of Israel go into harlotry of idol worship, and the kingdom of Judah herself later did the SAME thing!


Then God said this...

Jer 3:12-14
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, "Return, thou backsliding Israel", saith the LORD; and I will not cause Mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed My voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
(KJV)

Why did our Heavenly Father send that Message "toward the north"? Which "Israel" was He talking to???

He was talking ONLY to the ten tribes of the NORTHERN kingdom which He scattered out of the holy lands first.


Even in this following verse God shows clearly... a distinction between the TWO HOUSES of Israel, as He spoke of when they will both be joined back together and no longer will be two nations...

Jer 3:18
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
(KJV)



So those DENYING that Israel being TWO SEPARATE HOUSES after 1 Kings 11 only reveal their BIBLICAL IGNORANCE, and that they have NOT studied enough of God's Holy Writ to speak out AGAINST THAT IDEA!

Those who speak against it bear falsehood and a false witness against The LORD GOD YHVH Himself, for that distinction is well written of in many Scriptures in God's Word, this Jer.3 Scripture just being only ONE of them.

Now those who SEE that written there, but still... choose NOT to believe it as written, your situation is actually WORSE than Biblical ignorance! It's more like outright rebellion against God.

 

[daq]

He that hath two ears buy a sword; he that hath an ear let him hear . . . :lol:

I like your sense of humour daq. Matt 11:15;13:9,43 and so on.

Should we change your name to Malchus or Simon Peter?

that is funny

Now I know why she can't add the "s" to oracle, shes using it as an earring :lol:

Although it may be funny it is no joke! :)

And if thy hand offend thee, cut him-her off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Gehenna, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut him-her off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck him-her out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Gehenna: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And know that every one of these shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt, (else why immerse for the dead if they be not raised?). And the same it is for the ears:

Revelation 13:9-10 KJV
9. If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

This one understood that the sword was for one of his own ears, that he might "Hear, O Israel!" :lol: