The proper and harmonious interpretation of Romans 11:25 [split from another topic]

[In Christ]

Well you may have learned something today


Zion is a literal place - you know this right?


I ask you below to show us this correct understanding - look forward to your explanation.


This is true in part though a small number of Jewish converts still occur today - as a generalisation you are correct.


Wow - did you hear that CB members - what a bold statement from one who is yet to explain God's calling and drawing of her in Jer 3:14,15

Imagine that - "In Christ" does not count himself as one of the shepherds of Jer 3:15!

Staggering I say staggering!...what is your hope?

So by this you are saying the OT prophecy of God bringing his refined back to Zion is not only unfulfilled prophecy but that God never intended to do this in Israel?

Do you realise the problem you have created for yourself?

Let me see if you can enter the Word of God with me.

Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
(Jer 3:14)

Why 1 from a city? 2 from a family?

He states "I WILL" but you say "HE WILL NOT?"

Explain the verse to me and especially my favourite verse in all Scripture Jer 3:15

Purity

Purity

What, did the truth come by to you only?

You and I will never come to agreement because you read the Bible literally, whereas, I on the other hand, read Scripture by the principle rule set forth in Mark Chapter 4 that Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. In this sense, the whole Bible is a parable.

I have read many of your posts here and in other threads, and you portray yourself as knowing it all, and boasts in your own conceits. Well, I got news for you, no one has a perfect understanding of Scripture as it needs to be discerned spiritually

The character of a child of God is one of being humble and ready to teach those who he believes have difficulty in understanding particular passages of Scripture, yet at the same time, is willing to be taught
when he is found to be in error in his interpretations also.

Jer. 3:14, as I've indicated, was used primarily as a reference to establish that God was married to National Israel. Maybe I should have used Jer. 31:32 instead. God divorced them as they continued to be disobedient and worshiped other gods, (Jer. 3:8), This condition of 'blindness in part that has happened to Israel' that we read about in Ro. 11:25 will continue for ever (Mark 11:14), until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, meaning, until the last of the Gentiles that are to be saved has become saved which will happen on the last day. In John Chapter 6 we read four times that Jesus said, “I will raise him up on the last day.”

To top it off, Jesus had cursed the Fig Tree (a representation/figure of National Israel) Mark 11:20-21.

Ezekiel 47:12

And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all
trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed:
it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued
out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for
medicine.

The text above indicate there is fruit, but in Mark 11:12-14 National Israel had no fruit but had leaves before it was cursed by Jesus.

Revelation 22:2

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,
which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves
of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Here there is fruit.

Since you had not elaborated and I must assume from your vantage point, you believe that Jer. 3:14 had been fulfilled in 1948 or, will be fulfilled sometime in the future, am I correct ?

The only event that I see next for National Israel since they became a nation once again amongst the nations of the world in 1948 is that they will remain in unbelief for ever (Mark 11:14) until the last of the Gentiles that will have become saved has been saved (fulness of the Gentiles be come in), except for a remnant (selected few) that are saved by grace, the same way believers today are being saved throughout every nations of the world, (a remnant saved by grace).

Jer. 3:14 will occur on the second coming of Jesus!

Mat. 24:40,41. Will be taken up on the last day. Answer Mat. 24:37-39.

Romans 11:26:

The word 'so' and also in John 3:16 means, 'in this manner' or 'thus.'

In what manner? In the manner that blindness in part has happened to National Israel How long will this condition last? For ever! Mark 11:14. Or, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, and according to John 6:39,40,44,54 will be the last day.

If the condition of being blind for National Israel is for ever then “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 cannot be pointing to National Israel rather it is pointing to Spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentile believers)
Compare, Hebrews 12:22 = Heavenly Jerusalem; Revelation 21:2, 10 = Holy City, New Jerusalem;
Revelation 14:1 = Spiritual Zion;

My answer is Hebrews 8:1; Jer. 31:34 to your question on Jer.3:15

May the Holy Spirit give us wisdom.

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity,

More later, but on this point


you seem to have skipped over Romans 11:26 where a whole verse from Isaiah is quoted, referring specifically to Messiah.


Clearly, Messiah did fulfil that prophecy.


What else is there in scripture which makes you think He needs to do it all again?

The comment wasn't to imply the Messiah was not taught within the chapter but to say he is not directly named within the chapter is the point being made. I agree with you in regards to Rom 11:26 but he is not the subject matter of Rom 11 - Natural Israel is the substance of Pauls message here. i.e. The restoration of Israel.

Purity

What, did the truth come by to you only?

No, many understand the truth concerning Rom 11 and the future restoration of God's people in the earth. Basic Bible teaching which any young reader can determine from OT and NT reading alone.

You and I will never come to agreement because you read the Bible literally, whereas, I on the other hand, read Scripture by the principle rule set forth in Mark Chapter 4 that Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak.

Well this statement is not true.

Let me prove it.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I do not believe this is a literal happening and I would be deeply concerned if any believer felt a literal woman could be clothed with a literal sun.

What does this prove?

Answer: The importance of being a contextual studier of the Word.

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. In this sense, the whole Bible is a parable.

Agreed.

I have read many of your posts here and in other threads, and you portray yourself as knowing it all, and boasts in your own conceits.

Providing my boasts are in truth and Christ Jesus I am safe from your opinions.

Well, I got news for you, no one has a perfect understanding of Scripture as it needs to be discerned spiritually

This is true.

Do you know I am still working through some of Daq posts behind the scenes and he has taught me a couple of things I didn't know.

The character of a child of God is one of being humble and ready to teach those who he believes have difficulty in understanding particular passages of Scripture, yet at the same time, is willing to be taught when he is found to be in error in his interpretations also.

Romans 11 has been so thoroughly explained in this thread that all present are without excuse for not understanding Gods plan with Israel.

Maybe I should have used Jer. 31:32 instead. God divorced them as they continued to be disobedient and worshiped other gods, (Jer. 3:8),

But you have a problem with using Jer 31:32 don't you?

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

HE HASNT BEEN DONE YET!!!!!

Its called P.R.O.P.H.E.C.Y

QUESTION - What do you find perticulary interesting about Jer 31:33?

Read it again and don't forget to come back to me!

Mark 11:20-21.

Ezekiel 47:12

Mark 11:12-14

Revelation 22:2

Here there is fruit.

Since you had not elaborated and I must assume from your vantage point, you believe that Jer. 3:14 had been fulfilled in 1948 or, will be fulfilled sometime in the future, am I correct ?

Partial yes but its fullness is yet to take place.

Rather than arguing why don't we find something to agree on.

The “fig tree” is a symbol of Israel as per Joel 1:7.

Yes or No?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
(Luk 13:8)

"Let it alone this year” - The last year of his grace. But Yahweh gave them nearly 40 years more!!

The longsuffering of God waited!!

And still waits!

The only event that I see next for National Israel since they became a nation once again amongst the nations of the world in 1948 is that they will remain in unbelief for ever (Mark 11:14) until the last of the Gentiles that will have become saved has been saved (fulness of the Gentiles be come in), except for a remnant (selected few) that are saved by grace, the same way believers today are being saved throughout every nations of the world, (a remnant saved by grace).

Jer. 3:14 will occur on the second coming of Jesus!

Mat. 24:40,41. Will be taken up on the last day. Answer Mat. 24:37-39.

Romans 11:26:

The word 'so' and also in John 3:16 means, 'in this manner' or 'thus.'

In what manner? In the manner that blindness in part has happened to National Israel How long will this condition last? For ever! Mark 11:14. Or, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, and according to John 6:39,40,44,54 will be the last day.

If the condition of being blind for National Israel is for ever then “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 cannot be pointing to National Israel rather it is pointing to Spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentile believers)
Compare, Hebrews 12:22 = Heavenly Jerusalem; Revelation 21:2, 10 = Holy City, New Jerusalem;
Revelation 14:1 = Spiritual Zion;

My answer is Hebrews 8:1; Jer. 31:34 to your question on Jer.3:15

May the Holy Spirit give us wisdom.

You are close - very close! In fact so close it hurts.

Matt 19:28 (This promise unique to Matthew)

“In the regeneration” ‘palliggensia’ = ‘re-birth’. Only other occurrence Titus 3:5 - not now !!!!

“12 thrones…judging 12 tribes” - after the type of Solomon’s kingdom 1 Kings 4:7

My understanding of Romans 11 accommodates a National Israel with 12 Apostles judging over the twelve tribes.

When you can begin to speak to the regeneration of Israel only then can your thinking be in harmony with God.

Purity

 

[Rex]

The people of God have wrongly been taught that Torah has been done away with, (I think you might agree with this). It has not been "abolished" or "nailed to the Cross" but is rather now properly interpreted by the Master in the Gospel accounts. Torah was always meant to be internalized and now it is properly rendered as such by the teachings of the Teacher of Righteousness himself in what we have written. Torah must be seen, read, and heard according to the Spirit which Yeshua has offered up, (even upon the stake as he poured out his soul unto death). What I have said previously above flows from the doctrine of Yeshua:

Matthew 5:16-20 KJV
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Why does he say this? Because the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees was physical, visual, and outward, like whitewashed tombs on the outside: but on the inside they were like darkened tombs full of dead men's bones. The point made is that they had not internalized Torah and brought it into the inside of themselves; the same is likewise true of all the false prophets and Pharisaic modern shepherd-teachers of today. Not one jot or tittle shall pass until all of it be fulfilled; to each in his or her own appointed times, for the power of the holy people must be completely shattered, (pride and will) before one may even begin to be capable of hearing the Truth which Messiah has spoken. Therefore we must all be careful, taking heed to ourselves; understanding that things like even murder do not necessarily have to be carried out in the physical, with physical hands and deeds, to be considered murder in the supernal and spiritual world. In fact the Master clearly states that murder proceeds from the heart and comes forth out of the mouth. How can it be that one might murder with his or her mouth from the heart? It is supernal Torah which the Master is teaching:

Matthew 15:18-20 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20. These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

This teaching therefore goes much deeper than physical things and likewise concerns not a physical seed line when it comes to who is of the kingdom, or who is not of the kingdom; rather it is the supernal and spiritual seed lines that count and Cain is the genos of the wicked one in the spirit world, regardless of physical genealogy. Yeshua says to the Pharisees that he already knows they are of the seed of Abraham but then, in the same passage, we see what follows:

John 8:37-47 KJV
37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Does he mean that those Pharisees, Scribes, or Jews were "doomed forever" because he says their father was the devil? or does it mean that they need to repent and separate themselves from the supernatural "father" of worldly ways and flesh minded men even though they were of the seed of Abraham? No doubt they had every opportunity to repent and some of them did, (like Nicodemus who was one among many). Therefore the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Herod are employed throughout the Gospel accounts in supernal typology as warnings to each and every one of us, ("beware of the leaven of Herod, the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees", says Yeshua). Cain is likewise employed in the same typological form of supernal instruction and because of Matthew 15:18-20, quoted above, the Elder therefore writes the following in Truth, by the Testimony of Yeshua; that whosoever hates his brother is already a murderer in his heart and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And it is no coincidence that the Elder mentions Cain, who was of that wicked one, and the first murderer. So likewise when someone points his finger at the Jews and says that they still have "Canaanites" mixed in with them, and then the "Canaanites" which he claims to see turn out to be northern Essenes and Nazarites; I say to the one pointing his finger that his own three fingers pointing back at him sound like an Amorite, a Hittite, and a Hivite, and all of those are Canaanites. Oh that the modern shepherd Pharisees and prophets with their flocks would hear the words of the Father, and the Son, and Peter, and Paul, and the Elder, and likewise the Preacher.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-15 KJV
9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
12. I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil.

Matthew 7:12 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Very very nice Daq a pleasure to read the concoclusion of the matter.

.................................................................................

The people of God have wrongly been taught that Torah has been done away with, (I think you might agree with this). It has not been "abolished" or "nailed to the Cross" but is rather now properly interpreted by the Master in the Gospel accounts. Torah was always meant to be internalized and now it is properly rendered as such by the teachings of the Teacher of Righteousness himself in what we have written. Torah must be seen, read, and heard according to the Spirit which Yeshua has offered up, (even upon the stake as he poured out his soul unto death). What I have said previously above flows from the doctrine of Yeshua:

Matthew 5:16-20 KJV
16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Why does he say this? Because the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees was physical, visual, and outward, like whitewashed tombs on the outside: but on the inside they were like darkened tombs full of dead men's bones. The point made is that they had not internalized Torah and brought it into the inside of themselves; the same is likewise true of all the false prophets and Pharisaic modern shepherd-teachers of today. Not one jot or tittle shall pass until all of it be fulfilled; to each in his or her own appointed times, for the power of the holy people must be completely shattered, (pride and will) before one may even begin to be capable of hearing the Truth which Messiah has spoken. Therefore we must all be careful, taking heed to ourselves; understanding that things like even murder do not necessarily have to be carried out in the physical, with physical hands and deeds, to be considered murder in the supernal and spiritual world. In fact the Master clearly states that murder proceeds from the heart and comes forth out of the mouth. How can it be that one might murder with his or her mouth from the heart? It is supernal Torah which the Master is teaching:

Matthew 15:18-20 KJV
18. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20. These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

This teaching therefore goes much deeper than physical things and likewise concerns not a physical seed line when it comes to who is of the kingdom, or who is not of the kingdom; rather it is the supernal and spiritual seed lines that count and Cain is the genos of the wicked one in the spirit world, regardless of physical genealogy. Yeshua says to the Pharisees that he already knows they are of the seed of Abraham but then, in the same passage, we see what follows:

John 8:37-47 KJV
37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Does he mean that those Pharisees, Scribes, or Jews were "doomed forever" because he says their father was the devil? or does it mean that they need to repent and separate themselves from the supernatural "father" of worldly ways and flesh minded men even though they were of the seed of Abraham? No doubt they had every opportunity to repent and some of them did, (like Nicodemus who was one among many). Therefore the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and Herod are employed throughout the Gospel accounts in supernal typology as warnings to each and every one of us, ("beware of the leaven of Herod, the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees", says Yeshua). Cain is likewise employed in the same typological form of supernal instruction and because of Matthew 15:18-20, quoted above, the Elder therefore writes the following in Truth, by the Testimony of Yeshua; that whosoever hates his brother is already a murderer in his heart and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him:

1 John 3:11-15 KJV
11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And it is no coincidence that the Elder mentions Cain, who was of that wicked one, and the first murderer. So likewise when someone points his finger at the Jews and says that they still have "Canaanites" mixed in with them, and then the "Canaanites" which he claims to see turn out to be northern Essenes and Nazarites; I say to the one pointing his finger that his own three fingers pointing back at him sound like an Amorite, a Hittite, and a Hivite, and all of those are Canaanites. Oh that the modern shepherd Pharisees and prophets with their flocks would hear the words of the Father, and the Son, and Peter, and Paul, and the Elder, and likewise the Preacher.

Ecclesiastes 1:9-15 KJV
9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
12. I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil.

Matthew 7:12 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi Purity,

More later, but on this point


you seem to have skipped over Romans 11:26 where a whole verse from Isaiah is quoted, referring specifically to Messiah.


Clearly, Messiah did fulfil that prophecy.


What else is there in scripture which makes you think He needs to do it all again?

Dragon ..... I have pondered that verse many times .... "the Deliverer will come from Zion" ... in Romans 11:26

We can probably agree that Jesus fulfilled it ..... trouble is when Paul uses it in Romans it is future .... Jesus had already come and gone

Maybe we have to apply this future .... "Deliverer from Zion" .... purely in relation to Israel ..... after all .... Israel (in unbelief) is what the whole topic is about in Romans 11 ..... the believing Jews and believing gentiles are already squared away

And then we also have deliverance mentioned in Isaiah 45:25 along with mention that it applies to all the descendants of Israel

But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord

 

[Rex]

Dragon ..... I have pondered that verse many times .... "the Deliverer will come from Zion" ... in Romans 11:26

We can probably agree that Jesus fulfilled it ..... trouble is when Paul uses it in Romans it is future .... Jesus had already come and gone

Maybe we have to apply this future .... "Deliverer from Zion" .... purely in relation to Israel ..... after all .... Israel (in unbelief) is what the whole topic is about in Romans 11 ..... the believing Jews and believing gentiles are already squared away

And then we also have deliverance mentioned in Isaiah 45:25 along with mention that it applies to all the descendants of Israel

But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord

Israel was Jacobs Spiritual name, the deliverance found I posted as an addition to DF post Notice to those in Jacob, this being all born of flesh.

20 x“And ya Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the Lord.
21 “And as for me, zthis is my covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit that is upon you, aand my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

But all the descendants of Israel .............this being those Jews born of God "jacobs Spirit name" are about to withness the power of the new covenant.
will find deliverance in the Lord............and it applied to all those born of the spirit name Israel Romans 9:6 and verse 21 above

My post concerning the name
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18010-the-proper-and-harmonious-interpretation-of-romans-1125-split-from-another-topic/page-15#entry203419

Thats what my point is Arnie, but many of these people believe that it's some sort of promise that applies to the blood line as a whole.

It's the word Israel, most apply it to the nation as a whole in every case, and never consider what the name meant, who it was given to and why, they simply see the word Israel and say that means all the children of Abraham. It was a name given to Jacob at the time he received the promise. By proxy it is applied to all of his children but the promise of salvation isn't, the promise of salvation pointed to the seed, which is one.Gal 3:16 I notice that Purity said that applying it to all gentiles is foolish, I agree, it's equally foolish to apply it to all Israel as a whole. It that were true then salvation is guaranteed by right of birth instead of by faith. Abraham was circumcised, and Jacob wrestled with the Lord. Then their names were changed. It wasn't automatic was it. I required something from both of them didn't it. The covenant was that God promised to be there God to him and his decedents, that doesn't mean they are automatically saved by the promised seed who is Christ. Instead it means that God is going to complete his plan of salvation through the line of Abraham. And those that believe by faith in the old and new testaments will receive the promise of the "seed"

The promise as it's been pointed out numerous times is Christ, it's the applying of the name given to Jacob, Israel, and in every instance of scripture interpreting as meaning Jacobs children is where the errors are made. And then all Israel shall be saved, it's not speaking of the nation but those in Christ both Jew and Gentile.
Jesus is Israel and those that are in Him are Israel of salvation of which all the Prophets spoke of, this Israel includes both Jew and Gentile.

At the time of Jesus the people of Israel didn't realize this ether that's what was hidden until the sacrifice of Christ was complete, Everyone simply believe Israel was guaranteed salvation by right of birth but John TB opens Mathew with a warning to the nation this is not true.

The name
What I understand from Romans 9 what Paul is speaking about is that through Isaac, your offspring shall be named. One named Jacob and one named Esau. One he loved and the other he hated. The point is right from the beginning we see not all of those from Abraham are of the promise, the decedents from Abraham were of the promise not from Abram. Just as not all of those decedent from Jacob are Israel. Jacob being the flesh and Israel being the promise. The offspring of Isaac shall be named what? Esau and Jacob..... Jacob became ----->>> Israel. Abram being the flesh and Abraham being the promise. I hope you understand what it is I'm trying to say. We see the same event in Cain and Able except Able was killed and if you will, became ----> Seth, God purpose and promise marched forward just the same. And what promise is this? Why the same seed Paul talks about Gal 3:16 , the same seed that God said would bruise the head of the serpent Gen3:15 KJV The same seed promised to Abraham Gen 22:18 KJV and named in Jacob -> Israel ,,,Romans 9:6 ,,,,,,,,,Gal 3:8


John 3:6
why flesh can not give birth to the Spirit "promise"
Israel ---->> was a name given from heaven, it is not the line decedent from Jacob. So why don't you understand that born of flesh is flesh and that born from above is from heaven. So how is it that this man born of the flesh named Jacob can through his flesh give birth to heavenly men named Israel?
Jesus is talking to Nicodemus a son of Abraham, yet Jesus tells him he needs to receive the promise doesn't he? What does that say why it's in complete agreement with John and do not seek to say to yourselves we have Abraham as our father.

When Paul is speaking about all Israel in Romans 11:26 he's speaking about the inclusion of the Gentiles period, who were to receive the promise after it was delivered to the Jews Gal 3:6 He's not making a case for some future blessing He still owes Israel as a nation. It was delivered right on time in Jesus.

Yes there is still a future for Israel but it's not speaking exclusively of the nation it's speaking to the true Israel being both Jew and gentile.

 

[Purity]

Dragon ..... I have pondered that verse many times .... "the Deliverer will come from Zion" ... in Romans 11:26

We can probably agree that Jesus fulfilled it ..... trouble is when Paul uses it in Romans it is future .... Jesus had already come and gone

Maybe we have to apply this future .... "Deliverer from Zion" .... purely in relation to Israel ..... after all .... Israel (in unbelief) is what the whole topic is about in Romans 11 ..... the believing Jews and believing gentiles are already squared away

And then we also have deliverance mentioned in Isaiah 45:25 along with mention that it applies to all the descendants of Israel

But all the descendants of Israel
will find deliverance in the Lord

A peaceful realisation of truth.

 

[Rex]

Edit
missed posting addion above

A peaceful realisation of truth.

Israel was Jacobs Spiritual name, the deliverance found I posted as an addition to DF post Notice to those in Jacob, this being all born of flesh.

20 x“And ya Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the Lord.
21 “And as for me, zthis is my covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit that is upon you, aand my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

But all the descendants of Israel .............this being those Jews born of God "jacobs Spirit name" are about to withness the power of the new covenant.
will find deliverance in the Lord............and it applied to all those born of the spirit name Israel Romans 9:6 and verse 21 above
Post 475 daq

616

 

[daq]

Very very nice Daq a pleasure to read the conclusion of the matter.

.................................................................................

Thanks Rex; and how do we internalize Torah? That is why God gave us an appetite and the necessity for food to survive, to teach us spiritual and supernal things concerning our basic need for his Word; not only to survive, but to live by. Thus the old adage "Just keep eating" as they say. Those who attempt to force everything into a strictly literal and physical mindset fall into the same trap which had already occurred with the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, in their interpretations of Torah during New Testament times. How much worse has it become now simply because of the western mindset being so much more detached and removed from the poetic and idiomatic language of the Hebrew mindset which is found in the Scriptures. Once upon a twilight there came a seven day feast wherein I sat down in the kingdom of heaven for a rack of Lamb Seder with Moshe, Eliyahu, and others of the fathers of Yeshua faith. And Moshe says to me; "Take heed to yourself that you eat not with a soiled garment of the conscience, neither eat with spot nor wrinkle in the machinations of your vain imagination; for, behold, the Lamb is perfect, and spotless: not a bone of it was broken and neither shall it ever be." So I gave my thanks knowing that I can never be perfect and offered my petition; asking forgiveness for my sins, and forgiving all others, and began to eat both of the Lamb and of the bitter herbs which come with the Seder, (for Moshe also said "eat all of it and leave none of it till the morning come") and when I arrived at the "fifth rib", (which is Devarim or Deuteronomy) I found the following like a treasure having been hidden in a field:

Deuteronomy 28:1-13 KJV
1. And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2. And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
3. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4. Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6. Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
7. The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
8. The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
9. The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.
10. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.
11. And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12. The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
13. And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

And when I saw that Torah the Law itself promises that we shall be of "above only" and no more of "beneath-below" then I paused for a moment to reflect, and gave thanks to the heavenly Father; suddenly understanding a little more of what things Paulos also writes in all his letters, which things are difficult to understand and often wrested by those who twist his words. And when I lifted up my eyes; there too was Paulos at the Seder, and he says to me; "Take heed to yourself; for if you build again the things which are dissolved, you make yourself a transgressor." And then says the Master himself by the Word unto me: "Take heed to yourself, for no man having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of Elohim."

And so I eat . . .

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Rex .... with all respect you tend to spiritualize nearly everything to make your version work

God changed Jacobs name to Israel ... I do not recall God intending it to just be some sort of "spiritual name" ... the actual name Israel has been in use ever since

And back to Romans 9:6 .... it never meant .... "those born of the spirit name Israel" .... the way you imply ..... rather it clearly is talking about descendants of Jacob (Israel) through Issac who are true Israel.

This is absolutely elementary and well defined within Romans ... why keep trying to change it ?

Why Is it a fearful thing for some people to realize we are simply Western Gentile Christians ?

This whole error started with the Catholics and carried on by many Protestants because for 1900 years of church history there was no country of Israel in existence and the theologians felt they had to do something to make the bible work .... so they decided to "spiritualize" everything about Israel and force-fit it to the church.

It did not fit then .... and it does not fit now ... it requires a complete bastardization of scriptures and still it doesn't work.

But there were many honest scholars during those years who interpreted the bible correctly and got it right .

I collect the scholarly books .... they are all pre-1948 .... and they all start out by saying ..... as hard as it is to believe .... some day the Jews will be returned to Palestine .... even though they are still in un-beleif .... and the rest of prophecy for them can be fulfilled.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Arnie,

It is very simple. It is not about the flesh (as Rex has ably explained), but about heart circumcision through faith in Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

When Peter quoted Exodus 19:5 and 6, he was speaking to all believers - not only the natural 'children of Israel' who had believed into Jesus Christ. This is the 'national Israel' whom God is taking forward to receive all that is hoped for in the resurrection on the last day, and the world to come.

1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter is referring to Israel, not to the Gentiles, although from Ephesians 2 we see that Gentiles are given equal place in 'the commonwealth of Israel'.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hosea 3:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Note a very similar construction when God spoke to Moses at Sinai: 'I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.' Then He said, at the end of verse 5: ' for all the earth is mine'. That is why God didn't refer to only the land He'd given Abram at the start, (in Exodus 19).

There are copious verses in the New Testament which make plain that thus, all believers who 'endure to the end' are on the same trajectory.


Just noticed you have posted while I was writing. I'll see if I need to edit to clarify anything.

the actual name Israel has been in use ever since

The name Jacob has continued as well! There is no way you can argue that 'Israel' totally replaced 'Jacob'.

rather it clearly is talking about descendants of Jacob (Israel) through Issac who are true Israel.

Are you serious? What about all the circumcised non-Israelites down the centuries, who kept the law and shared Passover? Are they all unsaved?

Do you skip over all the genealogies when you read them?

How do you account for physical effect of the huge number of non-Israelite people who are listed as having married into (or out of) Israel, whose very existence, and the continuing intermarriage of their descendants, constantly diluted Jacob's gene pool?

Even Jesus' genealogy is not 'pure' 'descendant of Jacob', so how do you combine that information with your definition of 'true Israel'?

Why Is it a fearful thing for some people to realize we are simply Western Gentile Christians ?

This whole error started with the Catholics and carried on by many Protestants because for 1900 years of church history there was no country of Israel in existence and the theologians felt they had to do something to make the bible work .... so they decided to "spiritualize" everything about Israel and force-fit it to the church.

It did not fit then .... and it does not fit now ... it requires a complete bastardization of scriptures and still it doesn't work.

But there were many honest scholars during those years who interpreted the bible correctly and got it right .

I collect the scholarly books .... they are all pre-1948 .... and they all start out by saying ..... as hard as it is to believe .... some day the Jews will be returned to Palestine .... even though they are still in un-beleif .... and the rest of prophecy for them can be fulfilled.

Of course the prophecy is going to be fulfilled - but not man's way, as we have at the moment - God's way.

If there is anyone at all who knows what 'Israel' means to God, it is God. It is up to us to keep up with Him.


Israel really is not about a patch of Palestine. It is about a people.

 

[Rex]

Thank you Dragonfly

Run the good race, and get your ear pierced, This is who I Am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwuO5DanBs

John 4:23

 

[dragonfly]

Hi daq,

Thanks for all you shared in the last two posts. I am blessed.




Hi Arnie,

I need to clarify something I said in my last post. The following comment was specifically in reference to the verses from Hosea.

'Peter is referring to Israel, not to the Gentiles, although from Ephesians 2 we see that Gentiles are given equal place in 'the commonwealth of Israel'.'

What I mean is, God had divorced 'Israel', and He maintains this stance, so that it's not until they begin to be restored through the Messiah who came out of Judah as prophesied, that they become 'my people' again.


The Gentiles were always on God's radar, though, as we see from Genesis to Revelation.

Many times I have heard it put forward that the people who were 'not a people', were the Gentiles, but it's impossible to read Hosea and take that meaning, as Israel is specifically named as 'not my people' right there, in the verses which Peter quotes.


Therefore, when Peter mentions 'Gentiles' in the following section, he is referring to unbelievers - uncircumcised in heart - AND he is including all unbelieving Israelites and Jews - just as Paul does at the end of Romans 2:

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?


Paul continues

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


You are not required to suspend your intelligence to believe a doctrine of man (such as the one you currently embrace).


Jesus already stated in Luke 4, when quoting Isaiah, that He can come to recover the sight of the blind. As if that is not enough, He actually allowed Paul

to become physically blind for three days, and then healed him. So when Paul testifies that when the heart of the Israelite turns to the Lord, the veil will

be taken away, he is testifying to his own experience, and throwing an open invitation to all who will believe, to have the veil removed from their eyes -

Jew and Gentile alike.


Lastly, about Paul quoting Isaiah, (who wrote in the future tense), Paul is actually saying that when God makes and end of adding 'the fulness of the Gentiles' to Israel, Israel will be complete; just as Isaiah prophesied, that the Deliverer would come out of Zion, and... what does it say?

In Isaiah, it says He would deliver all those in Jacob, who turn away from ungodliness.

There can be no mistake in the meaning. The man of flesh, Jacob, has to turn away from ungodliness, to receive deliverance.


In Romans 11:26, though, Paul tweeks what Isaiah said because he has understood something - that Isaiah also pointed out that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and that Messiah actually removed the filthy clothing, and put a new robe on the believer. The believer merely had to receive, if pride did not get in his way. Paul had not been born again by turning away from ungodliness. He had been born again by believing on the risen Saviour, who now enabled him to turn away from ungodliness with all his heart.



The New Testament does not teach that all Israelites will be saved one day. Neither does the Old Testament. A remnant is all that will be saved.


For those who kept the law:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For those who did not keep the law:

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


You have to admit you have 'no idea' how 'all Israel' are going to be saved according to your interpretation. But because your interpretation doesn't line up with the testimony of scripture, surely you have to look at the whole matter again, and not follow the teachings of man?

I think you have listened to Ben Friedman's explanation of the current state of Israel, so you do realise that the Jews who engineered the present nation state, are not actually descendants of Jacob. This should punch a huge hole in your thesis, if you are honest, shouldn't it?


God always renames those over whom He prevails, according to Jesus, so it is okay to believe that Gentiles can be called 'Israel', too

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 2:17

 

[Purity]

I collect the scholarly books .... they are all pre-1948 .... and they all start out by saying ..... as hard as it is to believe .... some day the Jews will be returned to Palestine .... even though they are still in un-beleif .... and the rest of prophecy for them can be fulfilled.

Many of those older works held some real gems in relation to the Israelish hope.

Purity

 

[daq]

Hi daq,

Thanks for all you shared in the last two posts. I am blessed.




Hi Arnie,

I need to clarify something I said in my last post. The following comment was specifically in reference to the verses from Hosea.

'Peter is referring to Israel, not to the Gentiles, although from Ephesians 2 we see that Gentiles are given equal place in 'the commonwealth of Israel'.'

What I mean is, God had divorced 'Israel', and He maintains this stance, so that it's not until they begin to be restored through the Messiah who came out of Judah as prophesied, that they become 'my people' again.


The Gentiles were always on God's radar, though, as we see from Genesis to Revelation.

Many times I have heard it put forward that the people who were 'not a people', were the Gentiles, but it's impossible to read Hosea and take that meaning, as Israel is specifically named as 'not my people' right there, in the verses which Peter quotes.


Therefore, when Peter mentions 'Gentiles' in the following section, he is referring to unbelievers - uncircumcised in heart - AND he is including all unbelieving Israelites and Jews - just as Paul does at the end of Romans 2:

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?


Paul continues

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


You are not required to suspend your intelligence to believe a doctrine of man (such as the one you currently embrace).


Jesus already stated in Luke 4, when quoting Isaiah, that He can come to recover the sight of the blind. As if that is not enough, He actually allowed Paul

to become physically blind for three days, and then healed him. So when Paul testifies that when the heart of the Israelite turns to the Lord, the veil will

be taken away, he is testifying to his own experience, and throwing an open invitation to all who will believe, to have the veil removed from their eyes -

Jew and Gentile alike.


Lastly, about Paul quoting Isaiah, (who wrote in the future tense), Paul is actually saying that when God makes and end of adding 'the fulness of the Gentiles' to Israel, Israel will be complete; just as Isaiah prophesied, that the Deliverer would come out of Zion, and... what does it say?

In Isaiah, it says He would deliver all those in Jacob, who turn away from ungodliness.

There can be no mistake in the meaning. The man of flesh, Jacob, has to turn away from ungodliness, to receive deliverance.


In Romans 11:26, though, Paul tweeks what Isaiah said because he has understood something - that Isaiah also pointed out that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and that Messiah actually removed the filthy clothing, and put a new robe on the believer. The believer merely had to receive, if pride did not get in his way. Paul had not been born again by turning away from ungodliness. He had been born again by believing on the risen Saviour, who now enabled him to turn away from ungodliness with all his heart.



The New Testament does not teach that all Israelites will be saved one day. Neither does the Old Testament. A remnant is all that will be saved.


For those who kept the law:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For those who did not keep the law:

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


You have to admit you have 'no idea' how 'all Israel' are going to be saved according to your interpretation. But because your interpretation doesn't line up with the testimony of scripture, surely you have to look at the whole matter again, and not follow the teachings of man?

I think you have listened to Ben Friedman's explanation of the current state of Israel, so you do realise that the Jews who engineered the present nation state, are not actually descendants of Jacob. This should punch a huge hole in your thesis, if you are honest, shouldn't it?


God always renames those over whom He prevails, according to Jesus, so it is okay to believe that Gentiles can be called 'Israel', too

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 2:17

Truly you are blessed if you understand that my previous post is allegorical yet choq full of supernal truths, taken straight from the Scriptures, for much of the Scripture is written this way though many do not realize it. Yeshua says that many will sit down in the kingdom of heaven with the fathers of the faith; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and this is the case whenever we sit down to read and study with the Lord. When I read in Torah I sit down with Noah who was perfect-complete "in his generations", and with Abraham with his record of faith accounted to him as righteousness which was consummated-tested-fulfilled many years later, (Genesis 22) and likewise I sit with Moses who wrote the first five books and other things containing the accounts of these persons of uprightness who walked with God. But when you sit down to hear their words do not take the best seat at the table because the only way to go is down; rather take the least of the seats, or sit beneath the table waiting for crumbs to fall from the plates of the children; I can assure you, from being in this position myself, that the Master often tosses whole stakes beneath the table just for fun while the elders are discussing more delicate matters up above at the table.

In regards to some of your other comments herein, (made to Arnie) have you ever noticed that Saul-Paul is a Jew but his tribal lineage is of Benjamin? This is exactly the case with one other person in the Scripture which is Mordecai the Jew, who was of Benjamin, a son of Kish who was the father of Saul:

1 Samuel 9:1-2 KJV
1. Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power.
2. And he had a son, whose name was Saul, a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.

Esther 2:5 KJV
5. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

What then happens in the story of Esther proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, (for those willing to believe the Scripture) the the term "Jew" is often, if not always, used to describe the faithful Hebrew, Israelite, Jewish, RELIGION more commonly called Judaism. It has always been that one may become a Jew through conversion followed by faithfulness, (though the formal-orthodoxy of today obviously will not accept anyone who professes Yeshua; thus, to hold to the Head, which is Messiah, and be formally converted into modern Judaism is out of the question). We see in the account of Esther and Purim that this is exactly what happens throughout the empire of Persia:

Esther 8:12-17 KJV
12. Upon one day in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, namely, upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar.
13. The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, and that the Jews should be ready against that day to avenge themselves on their enemies.
14. So the posts that rode upon mules and camels went out, being hastened and pressed on by the king's commandment. And the decree was given at Shushan the palace.
15. And Mordecai went out from the presence of the king in royal apparel of blue and white, and with a great crown of gold, and with a garment of fine linen and purple: and the city of Shushan rejoiced and was glad.
16. The Jews had light, and gladness, and joy, and honour.
17. And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Saul-Paul of Tarsus is retelling us a similar story through the book of Acts, (Lukos-Gamaliel) and all his writings.
So friend; if you are not a Jew, and anyone tells you that you cannot become a Jew? Just keep eating . . . :lol:
And remember that the little priests have no physical land inheritance . . .

 

[Rex]

Truly you are blessed if you understand that my previous post is allegorical yet choq full of supernal truths, taken straight from the Scriptures, for much of the Scripture is written this way though many do not realize it. Yeshua says that many will sit down in the kingdom of heaven with the fathers of the faith; Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and this is the case whenever we sit down to read and study with the Lord. When I read in Torah I sit down with Noah who was perfect-complete "in his generations", and with Abraham with his record of faith accounted to him as righteousness which was consummated-tested-fulfilled many years later, (Genesis 22) and likewise I sit with Moses who wrote the first five books and other things containing the accounts of these persons of uprightness who walked with God. But when you sit down to hear their words do not take the best seat at the table because the only way to go is down; rather take the least of the seats, or sit beneath the table waiting for crumbs to fall from the plates of the children; I can assure you, from being in this position myself, that the Master often tosses whole stakes beneath the table just for fun while the elders are discussing more delicate matters up above at the table.

I do believe we were raised under the same roof
Proverbs 25:6-7

I'm just the broom boy sweeping my Masters porch.
Got my first taste of Spirit when I was 3
Been nothing but boy trained up knowing; If I can't be trusted to sweep the floor and empty the trash, how then will dad ever trust me with the car.
I don't ask for the keys there given.

 

[daq]

I do believe we were raised under the same roof
Proverbs 25:6-7

I'm just the broom boy sweeping my Masters porch.

Got my first taste of Spirit when I was 3
Been nothing but boy trained up knowing; If I can't be trusted to sweep the floor and empty the trash, how then will dad ever trust me with the car.
I don't ask for the keys there given.

One evening I was trekking through the desert with some best friends and we decided to pull over and camp the night out on the desert floor. We pulled off the highway a bit, found a nice flat area that would accommodate the pup-tents, set up our little camp, and settled in. When it was time to retire we each went into our own little pup-tents and opened up the skylight screens to look at the stars in the fabulously blackened clear night sky. There were no city lights for miles around and neither a cloud in the black night sky of the heavens above us. It was stunningly beautiful; all the stars were out and brighter than I had ever seen them before. Yep, there we were; three pups, each of us in his own little tent with the great Tabernacle Tent of the Maker over and above us all; one roof, many rooms.

 

[Rex]

Were not or hearts burning within us on the road

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
Instead of the thornbush will grow the juniper,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the Lord’s renown,
for an everlasting sign,
that will endure forever.”

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Purity,

The comment wasn't to imply the Messiah was not taught within the chapter but to say he is not directly named within the chapter is the point being made. I agree with you in regards to Rom 11:26 but he is not the subject matter of Rom 11 - Natural Israel is the substance of Pauls message here. i.e. The restoration of Israel.

I am incredulous you think 'the Deliverer' or 'the Redeemer' is not a direct reference to Messiah. In most places in the whole Bible (in English) He is not called 'Messiah' (Hebrew), but He is there loud and clear and large as life. He is the key to everything.

'Natural Israel is the substance of Pauls message here. i.e. The restoration of Israel.' Hmm

Yes and no. Yes, because of Paul's careful summary of the facts, beginning at the start of the book:

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So, those Jews who believe, do so with 'the faith of God'. Is this the 'natural Israel' you have in mind, the ones who believed? Or are you thinking of the ones who didn't believe, who aren't going to inherit anything? They are 'natural Israel', too. Which one are you following?

 

[Purity]

Hi Purity,

I am incredulous you think 'the Deliverer' or 'the Redeemer' is not a direct reference to Messiah. In most places in the whole Bible (in English) He is not called 'Messiah' (Hebrew), but He is there loud and clear and large as life. He is the key to everything.

Again you are missing the point I am making.

The Masters name "Christ" or "Jesus" is not mention directly within the Chapter. You are absolutely correct that Jesus Christ is the deliverer who will come to Zion and he will remove the ungodliness (or Canaanite)from Israel - as per the prophecy of John 1:47.

My point is however that fact the audience here are the gentile converts who have accepted Jesus Christ - accepted the deliverer and now Paul is teaching them where they stand in relation to those who are blinded.

Its about natural Israel; their past state, present state and future state.

'Natural Israel is the substance of Pauls message here. i.e. The restoration of Israel.' Hmm

Yes and no. Yes, because of Paul's careful summary of the facts, beginning at the start of the book:

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So, those Jews who believe, do so with 'the faith of God'. Is this the 'natural Israel' you have in mind, the ones who believed? Or are you thinking of the ones who didn't believe, who aren't going to inherit anything? They are 'natural Israel', too. Which one are you following?

Natural Israel who failed in the wilderness (not all) through unbelief cannot enter His rest. Only a remanent namely 2 crossed over.

It doesn't look good for the Gentile believer does it Dragon?

Noah 8
Wilderness 2
Elijah 7,000
AD70 "a remnant maybe 5 - 10,000
Today ????

And how many refined when Israel is regathered once more to the Holy Land?

I do not know!

Purity

 

[Dodo_David]

I still haven't figured out what the dispute in this thread is all about.

What I do know is what Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 15:5: "I am the vine; you are the branches."

In the 11th chapter of Romans, the Apostle Paul talks about the grafting of branches into the vine. He says the following to Gentiles in regards to Jews:

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

So, what matters is whether or not a person is a part of the vine, with that vine being Messiah Jesus.