The Rapture is Post-trib

[David in NJ]

You have to lie about others to make your point. Doesn't that mean anything to you??

Yes, I completely agree, the best, the only valid approach is truth and honesty. And you lie and denigrate and refuse to address the passages of Scripture I've shared with you.

I pray that God will open your eyes to these things.

Much love!

P.S. = i never once lied about anyone on here!

Pre-trib rapture itself is a lie.
All those who preach and teach it are believing and promoting a lie!

The LOVE and TRUTH of God will deter us from such lies.

 

[The Light]

The falsehood of the pretrib rapture lies in the fact that neither Jesus not His apostles ever called God's coming judgment of the world "tribulation". They called it wrath. ​

First let me stand "in agreement" with you. Tribulation is not wrath. And yes, the error that most people that believe in a pretribulation rapture make is that they believe that the Tribulation and wrath are the same thing. It is completely wrong. And yet, the fact that you understand this gives you confidence that there is no pretribulation rapture. That is your error. Knowing and proving that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing does not mean that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

You see the rapture as pre wrath(post trib). Yes there is a prewrath rapture, but it's not the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven, pretrib. The rapture you see is all about the 12 tribes across the earth. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits redeemed from the earth that are of the 12 tribes. We can prove who they are because they are singing the song of Moses

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

So you see a rapture at the 6th seal, and that is correct. But it's not the Church. There are two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides.

Long story short. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and not the Church.

The 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th bowl of wrath all speak of the same thing. 6-6-6.

No. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest before the 7th seal of wrath is opened. However the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl do speak of the same thing.

Just use common sense. Do you see ANYTHING about the 6th seal that has to do with Armageddon?

 

[The Light]

P.S. = i never once lied about anyone on here!

Pre-trib rapture itself is a lie.
All those who preach and teach it are believing and promoting a lie!

The LOVE and TRUTH of God will deter us from such lies.

There are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. The wise are watching and ready for the bridegroom. The foolish are watching for the Antichrist.

 

[07-07-07]

Was the Gentile Church on earth when Jesus fulfilled the first 4 of the 7 Jewish feasts of the Lord? No (The Gentile Church really began when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius, his friends and family). Jesus fulfilled all the spring feasts, i.e., the Feast of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of the Harvest (Pentecost). There are 3 more feasts to be fulfilled, which are all in the fall, i.e., the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. It seems consistently logical that Jesus will fulfill them too. In God's seasonal calendar, the Gentile Church is in the summer season, and all the end-time signs indicate that we are at the end of the summer season. Fall is soon to begin. Will the Gentile Church be here on earth when Jesus begins to fulfill the last 3 Jewish feasts, beginning with the feast of Trumpets?

1 Thessalonians 4
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[David in NJ]

There are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. The wise are watching and ready for the bridegroom. The foolish are watching for the Antichrist.

Five wise virgins know and believe = "Every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God = WISE = Check

Five wise virgins believe the OT Prophet(s) = Daniel chapter 9 and chapter 12
OT Prophet Daniel says Antichrist BEFORE the ROCK/MESSIAH Returns = WISE = Check

Five wise virgins KNOW the AC comes BEFORE CHRIST = Matt ch24 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 = WISE = Check

 

[07-07-07]

There are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. The wise are watching and ready for the bridegroom. The foolish are watching for the Antichrist.

I wouldn't say that. I already feel very confident in who the anti-christ is. He is alive and very politically active on the world scene. His introduction as the man of sin, anti-christ, remains to be fulfilled. Secondly, does the parable of the 10 virgins apply to the Gentile Church? Or was Jesus speaking to the Jewish people, as the parable is in terms of a Jewish wedding?

 

[Zao is life]

First let me stand "in agreement" with you. Tribulation is not wrath. And yes, the error that most people that believe in a pretribulation rapture make is that they believe that the Tribulation and wrath are the same thing. It is completely wrong. And yet, the fact that you understand this gives you confidence that there is no pretribulation rapture. That is your error. Knowing and proving that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing does not mean that there is not a pretribulation rapture.

You see the rapture as pre wrath(post trib). Yes there is a prewrath rapture, but it's not the Church being raptured. The Church is already in heaven, pretrib. The rapture you see is all about the 12 tribes across the earth. That's why there are 144,000 first fruits redeemed from the earth that are of the 12 tribes. We can prove who they are because they are singing the song of Moses

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

So you see a rapture at the 6th seal, and that is correct. But it's not the Church. There are two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. There is a grain harvest and fruit harvest. Jacob had two brides.

Long story short. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and not the Church.


No. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest before the 7th seal of wrath is opened. However the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl do speak of the same thing.

Just use common sense. Do you see ANYTHING about the 6th seal that has to do with Armageddon?

THE SONG OF MOSES
and its significance​

The Song of Moses was sung after God's people had crossed the Red Sea, after they had been delivered from great tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, and after the judgment of the beast and his armies Pharaoh and his armies coincided with their redemption.

Only two of the 12 tribes made up Judah. The rest made up the 10 Northern tribes collectively called "Ephraim" in Biblical prophecy, and Ephraim ceased being a nation before God.

Isaiah 7:8-9
"For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son."

"Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people."

With the exception of the small remnant, from circa 725 BC, and following their exile, the house of Israel became scattered among the nations. It had ceased being a nation before God.

Note: The same thing happened to the house of Judah around 800 years later (after 70 A.D) - but with one key difference:

Unlike the descendants of the house of Judah following 70 A.D, the descendants of the house of Israel intermarried with the Gentiles in the nations after their dispersion, to the point where "the lost ten tribes" are untraceable today

By the time the apostle Paul made the following statement, the seed of Ephraim/the house of Israel had become mixed with the seed of the Gentiles:

"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,

Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As he says also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:22-26).

In 725 B.C, God said to Ephraim:

Hosea 1:6b-11a
“For I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy on the house of Judah,

Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God.

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, All of you are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, All of you are the sons of the living God.

Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head".

Now please tell me where Ephraim - the 10 tribes - are listed in Revelation 7 - because the 144,000 are made up of all 12 tribes, save Dan, who is replaced by Manesseh.

Ephraim - 10 of the 12 tribes - plus Judah and Benjamin are all summed up here:

9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between Israel (Ephraim) and Judah in Christ, and no difference between the Gentiles and the Jewish remnant. All are Israel - the 144,000:

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôy (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy three times. He was not speaking of an ethnic nation:

Jacob to Joseph, on his deathbed:

When Joseph saw that his father placed his right hand on Ephraim's head, it displeased him. So he took his father's hand to move it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head.

Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head."

But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother will be even greater and his descendants will become [the fullness of the Gentiles]* a multitude of nations."

* [ Hebrew, m'lo gôy: (the) fulnness (of the) Gentile (nations) ].

Joseph is a biblical type of Jesus, and Joseph took one wife - a Gentile woman. His children were born in Egypt, and were Gentiles, who were considered by Jacob part of Israel, Ephraim's seed becoming "the fullness of the Gentiles" (the original Hebrew wording of Genesis 48:19).

Note: The blood of Christ became necessary to receive God's grace and have a relationship with God the very moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

1 Corinthians 15:22
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive."
​

The Light is Jesus. The Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The Jews are only one of twelve tribes.

There is no pretrib rapture for anyone. And talk of a pretrib rapture for some is not only false - it's deceptive.

 

[The Light]

I wouldn't say that. I already feel very confident in who the anti-christ is. He is alive and very politically active on the world scene.

I'm pretty confident also. I won't ask you who, but would you say he comes from the Americas (North and South) or from the rest of the world?

His introduction as the man of sin, anti-christ, remains to be fulfilled.

Soon I suspect. A couple of thing to be aware of. There is a beast of the earth and a beast of the sea. Also, the beast of the earth has two horns.

Secondly, does the parable of the 10 virgins apply to the Gentile Church? Or was Jesus speaking to the Jewish people, as the parable is in terms of a Jewish wedding?

Well this is an interesting point. And yet both can apply as there are two raptures. Jacob had two brides.

 

[The Light]

​

There is NO DIFFERENCE between Israel (Ephraim) and Judah in Christ, and no difference between the Gentiles and the Jewish remnant. All are Israel - the 144,000: ​

The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

The second harvest will occur after the Church has been raptured. Don't be ignorant of this.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

There is no pretrib rapture for anyone.

We will know for sure very soon.

And talk of a pretrib rapture for some is not only false - it's deceptive.

And there lies the problem. Those without understanding attack their brothers that know the truth. They call them liars and followers of Satan among many other things. And they are wrong. There are two raptures and one is pretrib for the Church.

 

[Zao is life]

The 144,000 are first fruits of the second harvest.

There is only one harvest mentioned by Jesus in His parables and mentioned by Jesus in His Revelation.

@The Light And I was not attacking you. Since your handle is a reminder that Jesus is the Light, I reminded you that the Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Your beliefs betray the fact that you have been deceived by false doctrine, because any notion of a pretrib rapture is not only scripturally false and therefore false in reality, it's deceptive to believers like yourself, who once having been deceived by it, repeat the same deception over and over.​

 

[David in NJ]

Was the Gentile Church on earth when Jesus fulfilled the first 4 of the 7 Jewish feasts of the Lord? No (The Gentile Church really began when the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius, his friends and family). Jesus fulfilled all the spring feasts, i.e., the Feast of Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of the Harvest (Pentecost). There are 3 more feasts to be fulfilled, which are all in the fall, i.e., the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles. It seems consistently logical that Jesus will fulfill them too. In God's seasonal calendar, the Gentile Church is in the summer season, and all the end-time signs indicate that we are at the end of the summer season. Fall is soon to begin. Will the Gentile Church be here on earth when Jesus begins to fulfill the last 3 Jewish feasts, beginning with the feast of Trumpets?

1 Thessalonians 4
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is no such thing as a "Gentile" church in the Eyes of God

The Gospel is for the Jew first and also to the Gentile = One Gospel for One Body of Christ

 

[07-07-07]

I'm pretty confident also. I won't ask you who, but would you say he comes from the Americas (North and South) or from the rest of the world?

Europe. President of France to be exact.

Well this is an interesting point. And yet both can apply as there are two raptures. Jacob had two brides.

But, Jesus gave the parable in terms of a Jewish wedding. When you get a chance, study the rituals of a Jewish man marrying a virgin.

 

[David in NJ]

Europe. President of France to be exact.

But, Jesus gave the parable in terms of a Jewish wedding. When you get a chance, study the rituals of a Jewish man marrying a virgin.

Do you know that we who belong to Christ have been Wed to Christ?

 

[07-07-07]

There is no such thing as a "Gentile" church in the Eyes of God

We are living in the Gentile dispensation, seeing that few Jews accept the Word of Life, Jesus.

The Gospel is for the Jew first and also to the Gentile = One Gospel for One Body of Christ

Exactly, the Jew first and then the Gentiles.

 

[07-07-07]

Do you know that we who belong to Christ have been Wed to Christ?

Yes, but what does that have to do with the parable of the 10 virgins? This parable has to do with Jewish customs when a Jewish man betrothals a virgin.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, but what does that have to do with the parable of the 10 virgins? This parable has to do with Jewish customs when a Jewish man betrothals a virgin.

Well of course it has to do with Jewish customs/betrothal process = Yeshua was born of the seed of Abraham/David.

What else you have for me Brother? = i love Truth = "Thy Word is Truth"

 

[07-07-07]

Well of course it has to do with Jewish customs/betrothal process = Yeshua was born of the seed of Abraham/David.

What else you have for me Brother? = i love Truth = "Thy Word is Truth"

Well, that didn't answer the question, as your response is devoid of explaining it through the lens of the customs of a Jewish wedding. Remember, Jesus was dealing with the house of Israel, not the Gentiles, during His time in the flesh.

 

[07-07-07]

Jewish dispensation ==> Gentile dispensation ==> One more week of Jewish dispensation ==> Return of Messiah Jesus

 

[David in NJ]

Well, that didn't answer the question, as your response is devoid of explaining it through the lens of the customs of a Jewish wedding. Remember, Jesus was dealing with the house of Israel, not the Gentiles, during His time in the flesh.

Perhaps you need a little 'Refresher' as we all do from time to time.

YES, Jesus came into the world born of a Jewish virgin of the Seed of Abraham/David = as Promised.

What else was Promised???

Isaiah 42:6 - “I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,

Isaiah 49:6 - "Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”


Luke 2:25-32
And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. So he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law, he took Him up in his arms and blessed God and said:

“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
For my eyes have seen Your salvation
Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

 

[David in NJ]

Jewish dispensation ==> Gentile dispensation ==> One more week of Jewish dispensation ==> Return of Messiah Jesus

SEE Post 199
and read Gospel of John, Acts, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans and Genesis