The Reality of the Millennial Kingdom

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farouk

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Romans 9:19-23
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

True the vessels of dishonor are fitted for destruction so that God may show mercy on the meek, the desolate, and the poor in spirit ...who were prepared unto glory and Honour.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
[20] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared (in Christ)unto every good work.

Romans 11:30-33
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Very humbling passages indeed! how much we should indeed depend on the grace of God!
 

Davy

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....

And we know that all those “unclean” placed without the camp, without the gate where Lazarus lay...IS where HE came. Where He suffered with those “unclean”. HE came FOR the “unclean”. The New Testament should reveal the Love clearly seen in the Old Testament in the face of Jesus Christ. All I’m suggesting is if it doesn’t line up with what is revealed in the face of Christ ...then maybe we haven’t fully understood yet....like the Lake of Fire. I’ve read what it says, sure, only would God make a person solely as waste? Give them no sight, only to serve as a vessel of destruction.

In answer to your last statement which I underlined, yes, God would make a person to serve His purposes during this world as a vessel to be destroyed.

However, flesh death is not the end for those born in the flesh, and no flesh born man has been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles showed this too. The first death, the death of the flesh body, is nothing compared to the death of one's spirit/soul in the future "lake of fire" at the GWT Judgment which is called the "second death" in Rev.20.

It would seem then, that you are confusing Christ's Salvation with the things of this present fleshy world.
 
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Davy

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1 Chronicles 21:15
[15] And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Matthew 10:24-25
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. [25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Mark 14:41 KJV
[41] And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.


Hebrews 13:6
[6] So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

That phrase has no bearing on what Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves in Luke 22 when He was getting ready to send them out in final.
 

VictoryinJesus

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That phrase has no bearing on what Jesus commanded His disciples to arm themselves in Luke 22 when He was getting ready to send them out in final.

Do we trust in a weapon in our hand, or in God? Submission. As far as I know...could be wrong...but I don’t remember Paul carrying a weapon. Paul’s weapons were Spiritual and not of this world.
 

VictoryinJesus

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In answer to your last statement which I underlined, yes, God would make a person to serve His purposes during this world as a vessel to be destroyed.

However, flesh death is not the end for those born in the flesh, and no flesh born man has been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles showed this too. The first death, the death of the flesh body, is nothing compared to the death of one's spirit/soul in the future "lake of fire" at the GWT Judgment which is called the "second death" in Rev.20.

It would seem then, that you are confusing Christ's Salvation with the things of this present fleshy world.

You could be right in saying I confuse them. A question: Matthew 13:40
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of ‘this world’ but then scripture speaks of the world to come? One) how does anything not of Christ make it through the fire at the end of ‘this world’? Where does WTJ fit into this world and the world to come?

Matthew 12:32
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

“...neither in the world to come.” Again, the tares are bound and burned at the end of ‘this world’ doesn’t only that of Christ inherit the ‘world to come’?
 

Davy

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It's not the church Davy, it's the three kings, the king of the north (Russia+),the kings of the south (an Islamic army) and the kings of the east (China, Rev. 9:16 , 16:12-14) they will be rebelling against the a/c, that is what causes Armageddon in the first place. The war to end all wars, but Jesus comes at this time while they are all together to defeat them all in one clean sweep and reclaim His kingdom. The church will have been in heaven for a while before Armageddon begins and there are a lot of folks who believe the church is the army of Rev. 19, not angels.

It sounds like you are following the theories based on the historical war acts of Antiochus from the Daniel 11 chapter, and theories by those like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler.

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

The end of this world with the coming Antichrist is going to be different. Those nations which tried to make war historically with Antiochus will instead be bowing in worship to the Antichrist. That above Scripture verifies this for that 42 months, which is the great tribulation period.

Christ's Church isn't going anywhere during that period. The Church is not gathered until Jesus comes to do battle at Armageddon on the 7th Vial, which is also when the "day of the Lord" events happen. This is why our Lord Jesus was still warning His Church on the 6th Vial in the Rev.16:15 verse that He comes "as a thief".

For without are … "Without" doesn't mean right outside the gates, it means outside of the kingdom of God, the ones who never will be let in.

The "For without" phrase in Rev.22:15 does mean exactly that the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city in that time. They are in the place of separation Jesus warned about in The Gospel, i.e., the "outer darkness". That is not the lake of fire; it is a place of separation outside the gates of the city. It is where the nations of unsaved are during Christ's thousand years reign.

I still maintain that the 2 rivers are different. Only those who enter the new heavens and earth will have access to it, there will be no sinners around to abuse it. But if it was the same one in the millennium than all the peoples, saints and sinners alike would have access to it and that would be totally contrary to God's plan and promises.

The Ezekiel sanctuary layout covers a much larger area in the middle east than any other previous time. So we cannot say the wicked outside the gates will be able to have access to the tree of life. The Rev.22:14 verse suggests they won't have access to it, as what would be the need to even mention who has right to it if the wicked were already gone?

Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
KJV



Furthermore, per Ezekiel 47, the River emits out from under God's House, the millennial sanctuary. That is the temple of Rev.7:14-15; it is on earth after Christ's return, which is when that Rev.7:14-17 Scripture begins, and notice the last verse there...

Rev 7:17
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

KJV

Just that River being associated with that temple or sanctuary in that time is proof enough that is the Millennial time, and not the new heavens and a new earth timing, because Rev.21:22 says there is no more temple with the new heavens and new earth timing.

The literal manifesting of God's River on earth should not be a surprise to Christ's Church, because it was first shown on earth in Genesis 2:10-14 along with God's Garden of Eden. God's River was even shown flowing out of His Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, two of which we still know their location today, the Euphrates and the Hiddikel or Tigris:
 

VictoryinJesus

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It sounds like you are following the theories based on the historical war acts of Antiochus from the Daniel 11 chapter, and theories by those like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler.

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

The end of this world with the coming Antichrist is going to be different. Those nations which tried to make war historically with Antiochus will instead be bowing in worship to the Antichrist. That above Scripture verifies this for that 42 months, which is the great tribulation period.

Christ's Church isn't going anywhere during that period. The Church is not gathered until Jesus comes to do battle at Armageddon on the 7th Vial, which is also when the "day of the Lord" events happen. This is why our Lord Jesus was still warning His Church on the 6th Vial in the Rev.16:15 verse that He comes "as a thief".



The "For without" phrase in Rev.22:15 does mean exactly that the wicked are outside the gates of the holy city in that time. They are in the place of separation Jesus warned about in The Gospel, i.e., the "outer darkness". That is not the lake of fire; it is a place of separation outside the gates of the city. It is where the nations of unsaved are during Christ's thousand years reign.



The Ezekiel sanctuary layout covers a much larger area in the middle east than any other previous time. So we cannot say the wicked outside the gates will be able to have access to the tree of life. The Rev.22:14 verse suggests they won't have access to it, as what would be the need to even mention who has right to it if the wicked were already gone?

Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
KJV



Furthermore, per Ezekiel 47, the River emits out from under God's House, the millennial sanctuary. That is the temple of Rev.7:14-15; it is on earth after Christ's return, which is when that Rev.7:14-17 Scripture begins, and notice the last verse there...

Rev 7:17
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

KJV

Just that River being associated with that temple or sanctuary in that time is proof enough that is the Millennial time, and not the new heavens and a new earth timing, because Rev.21:22 says there is no more temple with the new heavens and new earth timing.

The literal manifesting of God's River on earth should not be a surprise to Christ's Church, because it was first shown on earth in Genesis 2:10-14 along with God's Garden of Eden. God's River was even shown flowing out of His Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, two of which we still know their location today, the Euphrates and the Hiddikel or Tigris:

I’m sorry but I didn’t understand a word of that. I’ve never read Hal Lindsey or followed him. Chuck Missler I have listened to but would not agree so much now that I’ve read the word myself. I’m not saying your post is not on point and clear...just that it is over my head. He spoke of ‘this world’ and ‘the world to come’. Our power is not of ‘this world’. Our power is ‘the power of the world to come’ which power overcomes ‘this world ‘ in Christ. Hebrews 6:4-5
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of “the world to come,” which the word refers to as eternal.

I was just asking where the WTJ fits? The tares are bound and burned in the furnace. God’s brightness revealed destroys His enemies. How do they then end up in the world to come?
 
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Davy

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Do we trust in a weapon in our hand, or in God? Submission. As far as I know...could be wrong...but I don’t remember Paul carrying a weapon. Paul’s weapons were Spiritual and not of this world.

Yet Peter still carried a sword, and because the two in Luke 2 held up two swords, we know others of the disciples did too. This should be no surprise. And we are not all chosen very elect like Christ's Apostles were (see John 17). One should read John Foxe's Book of Martyrs to see how many of Christ's servants have been persecuted and murdered in early Church history. Paul was no doubt under God's protection until he finished his calling, and then it was time for him to go home too like many of God's prophets also suffered. I firmly believe that if Christ has a mission calling for us, we will complete that mission before we die. But to think of Him having to keep us guarded away from all dangers in this world is just wishful thinking, and shows lack of understanding what this present world is about.

1 Cor 10:13
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
KJV
 

Davy

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You could be right in saying I confuse them. A question: Matthew 13:40
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of ‘this world’ but then scripture speaks of the world to come? One) how does anything not of Christ make it through the fire at the end of ‘this world’? Where does WTJ fit into this world and the world to come?

Matthew 12:32
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

“...neither in the world to come.” Again, the tares are bound and burned at the end of ‘this world’ doesn’t only that of Christ inherit the ‘world to come’?

The wicked are not all destroyed with Christ's 2nd coming. If you read the simple John 5:28-29 Scripture you should understand by that there is a resurrection for the condemned also on the day of Christ's coming.

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'

KJV

Each one of those underlined words above is a separate Greek word in the NT manuscripts. Paul revealed we each must go through 2 changes to have eternal Life in Christ Jesus, not one.

1. - "this corruptible must put on incorruption" - our flesh body must be changed to a body of incorruption, a spiritual body type Paul taught in that chapter.

and...

2. "this mortal must put on immortality" - our mortal liable to die soul must put on immortality through Faith on Christ Jesus.

The wicked when Jesus comes will only go through change no.1. Those are still unsaved, having still rejected Jesus Christ. Yet they will go through that first change to the 'image of the heavenly' of their flesh putting on incorruption. They will still be subject to the "second death" though. And remember, the "second death" has nothing to do with flesh death. It is the death of one's soul/spirit in the future lake of fire.


So where was Paul pulling from when he quoted that phrase, "Death is swallowed up in victory"?
When we see quotes back to the OT Books we're supposed to go back and read, because it often contains more detail.


Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV
 

Davy

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I’m sorry but I didn’t understand a word of that. I’ve never read Hal Lindsey or followed him. Chuck Missler I have listened to but would not agree so much now that I’ve read the word myself. I’m not saying your post is not on point and clear...just that it is over my head. He spoke of ‘this world’ and ‘the world to come’. Our power is not of ‘this world’. Our power is ‘the power of the world to come’ which power overcomes ‘this world ‘ in Christ. Hebrews 6:4-5
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of “the world to come,” which the word refers to as eternal.

I was just asking where the WTJ fits? The tares are bound and burned in the furnace. God’s brightness revealed destroys His enemies. How do they then end up in the world to come?

I wrote that in reply to Trekson's post.
 
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Trekson

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Hi Davy, I guess we disagree on many issues so on this topic anyway, I hope we can agree to disagree. Regarding Dan. 11, I believe Antiochus ends at vs.20 and the a/c is from vs. 21 to the end.
 

Davy

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Hi Davy, I guess we disagree on many issues so on this topic anyway, I hope we can agree to disagree. Regarding Dan. 11, I believe Antiochus ends at vs.20 and the a/c is from vs. 21 to the end.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree on some things.

Antiochus IV as a type fulfilled the "abomination of desolation", conquering Jerusalem and going into the temple and sacrificing swine on the altar and then placing an idol in Zeus worship. Yet our Lord Jesus about two hundred years later quoted that from the Book of Daniel to happen some time in the future. So I see that specifically set for the final Antichrist at the end of this world, yet Antiochus IV did serve as a blueprint for it.
 

Trekson

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"abomination of desolation", conquering Jerusalem and going into the temple and sacrificing swine on the altar

Was what he did abominable? Yes, But that is not what the "a of d" will be.
 

Earburner

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The problem is; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So you have saints in glorified bodies attacking other saints in glorified bodies when Satan is loosed. And some other problems even stranger than this.
Yes, how foolish!
The KJV does not use the "religious" term: "THE Millennium". Unfortunately, many are not able to perceive/discern that the words "a thousand years" as being symbolic of God's age of Grace to us-ward, through the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 3:8.
Where at anytime does one understand that a thousand years is equal to one day, or a day is equal to a thousand years? In our minds, and in our realm, that is an impossibility. However, in God's mind, it is His reality, because He who is Eternal knows not time in His Realm.
As long as people are able to seek Him through faith, God's age of Grace shall continue, until there is that time of a "falling away". 2 Thes. 2:3.
Jesus spoke of it plainly in Luke 18:8.
 
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