The Reality of the Millennial Kingdom

[Trekson]

I see the Zech.14:6 & Rev.22:5 connection, but notice Rev.22:14-15 is about the Millennial timing because the wicked are still existing outside the gates of the holy city.

For a long time that is what I thought as well but with a little study we find it is just the same warning repeated that those who live their life as sinners will not be allowed into the kingdom of God. See 1Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:19, Col. 3:6, Philemon 3:2 and Rev. 21:8. It isn't stating that we will actually see them outside the gates of the NJ, just only those that do vs. 14 are allowed in.

Those waters of Zech.14:8 refer to God's River on earth. Ezekiel 47 is showing it flowing out of the Millennial sanctuary, which when the millennium is over, that sanctuary of Ezekiel will no longer exist. So Zech.14:8 is not new heavens and new earth timing either

Although the waters seem to come from the same source they are different rivers with different purposes. The one from Ez. 47 brings healing to the waters that were affected by the trumpet and bowl judgments. When that is accomplished that river will be no more but the river in Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 both reference the living/life. Those waters will aide in the eternal aspects of the New heavens and earth.

Regarding the phrase "as a thief in the night" it is just that, a descriptive phrase denoting suddenly and w/o warning. The phrase in Thess., Peter and Rev. are all different events with different timings within the day of the Lord. Similar to "as dark as night" or as "bright as day". They are simply common phrases that can denote several things and times depending within what context they're used. Sometime I'll post a study on Rev. 16:15 and it means nothing like most people believe it means.

But the main one is about the idea of Jerusalem as a harlot in Ezekiel 1

Just because a phrase is used once or more to describe a specific thing does not mean that every other time the word is used it is describing the same thing. Yes, Jerusalem and Israel in general have been described as a harlot and other similar terms but that has absolutely no correlation to the term being used in Rev.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The hot fiery furnace of Daniel 3 is an example of God's consuming fire on the last day of this world when Jesus returns to gather His Church. It will not burn us, but like Neb's servants in Dan.3 that just got near that fiery furnace, it incinerated them.

Agree.

Paul in that Ephesians passage is speaking to the Church, not to the wicked. Universalism is a doctrine of men, not in God's Word. Not everyone's sin is automatically covered by Jesus' death on the cross. Each soul must believe on Jesus Christ, no other way of Salvation.

And no, going into the lake of fire is not.. a path of freedom for them. Only belief on Christ Jesus is, and it is open to them also, IF... they will believe and be converted. The future lake of fire is a destruction by God, so definitely don't want to go against God in that! Even after seeing God in the future, many of them will still reject Him, so we don't want them around in His Eternity, as there won't be a rebellion the second time. And in Psalms 37, He shows they won't be around.

Did read Psalms 37, and I’m not sure. I know what we think it says and that is fine ...but we could be wrong. Cut off, cut down, cast out, found no more...could all be ‘subdued’. All I know is He says to love your enemies for a reason.

Isaiah 24:19-20
[19] The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. [20] The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

The earth: “...and it shall fall, and not rise again.” But we know the meek inherit the earth. And we know God did not create the earth in vain but to be inhabited. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

As far as His taking captivity captive. It was for all men. He has the keys of hell and of death. Not the keys for a few. The keys of Hell and Death. HE is the one that sets free.

Psalm 68:18-20
[18] Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them . [19] Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah. [20] He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.

 

[Trekson]

There is to be a final siege against Jerusalem for the last days. It is what the coming tribulation will be about, and is the gathering of the nations against Israel just prior to Christ's return.

Will armies be gathered to attack Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the 70th week? Yes, but only because that is where the a/c is. They are going to battle against him because, as I think you stated earlier, that will be his headquarters. But, when they see the Lord coming, they will turn their attention away from the a/c and all unite to fight the common enemy.

 

[Davy]

We don’t hate her though. (When I asked if we agree ...I meant do we agree with ten horns and beast in hating her.)

No, we (Christ's Church), are not to hate Jerusalem, nor even the deceived Jews there. But how we feel is not the subject there about the ten horns hating the Babylon harlot city, i.e., Jerusalem fallen to Antichrist.

At the same time, we, Christ's Church, are not to take part in the future false worship coming there...

1. The orthodox Jews who reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ still believe they are under the Old Covenant.
2. The orthodox Jews know that under the Old Covenant animal sacrifices, a Levitical priesthood, and temple are required.
3. The orthodox Jews plan to build another temple in Jerusalem and start up sacrifices again. This is the very subject for the end outlined in the Daniel 11 chapter.
4. We are not to enter into that area when the "abomination of desolation" idol is placed there by the false-Messiah.
5. God is sending those orthodox Jews a pseudo-Messiah "strong delusion" whom they will worship as Messiah.

 

[Davy]

For a long time that is what I thought as well but with a little study we find it is just the same warning repeated that those who live their life as sinners will not be allowed into the kingdom of God. See 1Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:19, Col. 3:6, Philemon 3:2 and Rev. 21:8. It isn't stating that we will actually see them outside the gates of the NJ, just only those that do vs. 14 are allowed in.

I'm afraid the Rev.22:14-15 Scripture is different:

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

That phrase, "For without are...", is a continuing subject phrase from the previous verse. Both those verses are of the same timing. And verse 15 is giving us a literal location of where the wicked are in that time of v.14. This coincides with the millennial timing of Ezekiel 44, and the latter part of Zech.14 about the nations left that came up against Israel on the last day. It coincides with Psalms 2, 1 Cor.15:23-28, and Rev.2 that Christ must first reign over the wicked with a rod of iron prior to the Kingdom being delivered up to The Father. That place outside the gates of the holy city is the "outer darkness" Jesus taught about, a place of separation outside the camp of the saints, which is also shown in Rev.20. So it's a direct link to Rev.20 prior to Satan's final loosing.

Although the waters seem to come from the same source they are different rivers with different purposes. The one from Ez. 47 brings healing to the waters that were affected by the trumpet and bowl judgments. When that is accomplished that river will be no more but the river in Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 both reference the living/life. Those waters will aide in the eternal aspects of the New heavens and earth.

You're not really providing real Biblical support for your counter-arguments here. It's because there is no other River written of in God's Word that does this, and the Ezek.47:12 connection with the Revelation tree of life is unmistakable:

Ezek 47:9
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
KJV


Ezek 47:1
47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
KJV

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

There's no mistaking that it is God's River of the Waters of Life of Rev.22 that is being declared there in Ezekiel 47.

Likely what you are misunderstanding is how God is going to begin healing this earth starting with the time of Christ's millennial reign.

Regarding the phrase "as a thief in the night" it is just that, a descriptive phrase denoting suddenly and w/o warning. The phrase in Thess., Peter and Rev. are all different events with different timings within the day of the Lord. Similar to "as dark as night" or as "bright as day". They are simply common phrases that can denote several things and times depending within what context they're used. Sometime I'll post a study on Rev. 16:15 and it means nothing like most people believe it means.

The "as a thief in the night" phrase came from the OT idea of the end of this world, as God told His OT prophets. When our Lord Jesus was speaking of the goodman of the house at the end of Matthew 24, the idea of knowing in what watch the thief would break in was about that day; He was indirectly referring back to what He told the OT prophets about that future "day of the Lord" which is about the day of His return to gather His Church and do battle against His enemies. This is why Paul linked that day with the "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5 when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". So when Jesus said He comes "as a thief", that is the event He was talking about to His Church in Rev.16:15 within the 6th Vial timing.

So far, you have argued against the very Scriptures that pull all these events together on the day of Christ's return - 1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15; Zech.14; Isaiah 2; Isaiah 13:9-13; Joel 3:14; 2 Cor.1:14.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No, we (Christ's Church), are not to hate Jerusalem, nor even the deceived Jews there. But how we feel is not the subject there about the ten horns hating the Babylon harlot city, i.e., Jerusalem fallen to Antichrist.

At the same time, we, Christ's Church, are not to take part in the future false worship coming there...

1. The orthodox Jews who reject Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ still believe they are under the Old Covenant.
2. The orthodox Jews know that under the Old Covenant animal sacrifices, a Levitical priesthood, and temple are required.
3. The orthodox Jews plan to build another temple in Jerusalem and start up sacrifices again. This is the very subject for the end outlined in the Daniel 11 chapter.
4. We are not to enter into that area when the "abomination of desolation" idol is placed there by the false-Messiah.
5. God is sending those orthodox Jews a pseudo-Messiah "strong delusion" whom they will worship as Messiah.

Maybe this ‘hate’ is the mark of the beast we are not to take. ‘Hate’ the mark of cain. For the sake of conversation but not insisting it to be so ...but we should understand and relate to the desolate. To be stripped of all our false ideas and religions. To be shown all the riches in the world come to nothing. Maybe I misunderstand but it seems everyone wants to spot and point out the whore...who is she? I agree with you she is the one who says she is no widow and sits a queen but God sending them upon her, in His mercy brings her down low. if the ‘whore’ is Jerusalem then we know what God said about the ones who hate her. Davy, look again...her religion is gone. Those made rich by her have abandoned her...same as the Lord. Those who have despitefully used her have consumed her. All her works of the flesh have turned to ashes...burned. But God told them He would give them beauty for ashes. her vanity has fled...and He says they will see (when the vail is removed from their eyes)He who comes in His name is blessed. Galatians 4:26-27
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

I have a serious problem in forcing it all spiritual and forgetting the flesh. but God wouldn’t forget or abandon His people of flesh, but humble them.

 

[Davy]

Agree.

Did read Psalms 37, and I’m not sure. I know what we think it says and that is fine ...but we could be wrong. Cut off, cut down, cast out, found no more...could all be ‘subdued’. All I know is He says to love your enemies for a reason.

You keep bring that up about loving our enemies. I'm not sure how you interpret to love our enemies that our Lord Jesus commanded us. If you look at His telling His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those of them that didn't have one, that reveals He didn't mean for us to just lay down in front of our enemies and let them run over us. His disciples were being sent out on the open road where there would be thieves and wild animals. He gave them the right to defend themselves (and us too).

Turning the other cheek was not an example of a death threatening situation. It was about when we preach The Gospel and the haters smack us on the face for doing so; in that situation we offer them the other cheek also. But if a robber, or murderer is coming at you to kill, Jesus gave us the right to defend ourselves, which is what His command to go buy a sword is about.

So to love our enemies can mean tough love too. Sometimes it means using military force for them to begin to understand God's ways.

Isaiah 24:19-20
[19] The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. [20] The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

The earth: “...and it shall fall, and not rise again.” But we know the meek inherit the earth. And we know God did not create the earth in vain but to be inhabited. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord ; and there is none else.

As far as His taking captivity captive. It was for all men. He has the keys of hell and of death. Not the keys for a few. The keys of Hell and Death. HE is the one that sets free.

Psalm 68:18-20
[18] Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them . [19] Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah. [20] He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from death.

That is about Christ's Judgment Seat which we all must appear before. It doesn't mean He is going to automatically save everybody. If the wicked were saved then it would not be written that they go into the lake of fire.

And if you'll notice, I have never said any certain one (except for Satan and his angels) was already condemned to perish in the future lake of fire. It's not my call, but our Lord Jesus' only. So I don't know why you'd bring up that matter. It certainly has no ascendancy of Christian power over me. I know who my Lord Jesus Christ is.

 

[Davy]

Will armies be gathered to attack Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the 70th week? Yes, but only because that is where the a/c is. They are going to battle against him because, as I think you stated earlier, that will be his headquarters. But, when they see the Lord coming, they will turn their attention away from the a/c and all unite to fight the common enemy.

I don't see the Church on earth fighting the Antichrist's army at all. I see Christ and His angels fighting it, like Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 points to. In Ezekiel 38 & 39, God hints that to get His enemy's attention on the last day battle, making sure they know beyond all doubt that the destruction is from Him and not of us, He will do the destroying before the northern armies get a chance to completely annihilate, which will be their final plan against us and Israel.

 

[CoreIssue]

Will armies be gathered to attack Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the 70th week? Yes, but only because that is where the a/c is. They are going to battle against him because, as I think you stated earlier, that will be his headquarters. But, when they see the Lord coming, they will turn their attention away from the a/c and all unite to fight the common enemy.

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You keep bring that up about loving our enemies. I'm not sure how you interpret to love our enemies that our Lord Jesus commanded us. If you look at His telling His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those of them that didn't have one, that reveals He didn't mean for us to just lay down in front of our enemies and let them run over us. His disciples were being sent out on the open road where there would be thieves and wild animals. He gave them the right to defend themselves (and us too).

Turning the other cheek was not an example of a death threatening situation. It was about when we preach The Gospel and the haters smack us on the face for doing so; in that situation we offer them the other cheek also. But if a robber, or murderer is coming at you to kill, Jesus gave us the right to defend ourselves, which is what His command to go buy a sword is about.

So to love our enemies can mean tough love too. Sometimes it means using military force for them to begin to understand God's ways.




That is about Christ's Judgment Seat which we all must appear before. It doesn't mean He is going to automatically save everybody. If the wicked were saved then it would not be written that they go into the lake of fire.

And if you'll notice, I have never said any certain one (except for Satan and his angels) was already condemned to perish in the future lake of fire. It's not my call, but our Lord Jesus' only. So I don't know why you'd bring up that matter. It certainly has no ascendancy of Christian power over me. I know who my Lord Jesus Christ is.

Ok. They bought swords and He was numbered among them as a thief. Did they use them? John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mark 14:47-49
[47] And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. [48] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me? [49] I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

They had swords. Did He tell them to use them? Luke 22:49
[49] When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

Matthew 26:52
[52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Revelation 13:10
[10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

[Davy]

Maybe this ‘hate’ is the mark of the beast we are not to take. ‘Hate’ the mark of cain. For the sake of conversation but not insisting it to be so ...but we should understand and relate to the desolate. To be stripped of all our false ideas and religions. To be shown all the riches in the world come to nothing. Maybe I misunderstand but it seems everyone wants to spot and point out the whore...who is she? I agree with you she is the one who says she is no widow and sits a queen but God sending them upon her, in His mercy brings her down low. if the ‘whore’ is Jerusalem then we know what God said about the ones who hate her. Davy, look again...her religion is gone. Those made rich by her have abandoned her...same as the Lord. Those who have despitefully used her have consumed her. All her works of the flesh have turned to ashes...burned. But God told them He would give them beauty for ashes. her vanity has fled...and He says they will see (when the vail is removed from their eyes)He who comes in His name is blessed. Galatians 4:26-27
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. [27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

I have a serious problem in forcing it all spiritual and forgetting the flesh. but God wouldn’t forget or abandon His people of flesh, but humble them.

Well, I'm certainly not speaking in spiritualizations when I speak of what Lucifer did against God at his original rebellion of old, and in comparing that to what he is coming to do on earth again, at the end of this present world.

Lucifer want's to be God, and for us to worship him in place of God. That is not a spiritualization, nor is Lucifer. He is very real, and not just a force. God created him with the image of man also, since that image of man originates from God Himself. So when Lucifer comes to this earth in plain sight as the Antichrist, he will deceive the whole world into believing he is God by the miracles he is given to do. God allows this. And it is because God is using him as a punishing rod upon the rebellious.

One of the truly important matters in God's Word we are to understand, is how Satan has no power of his own; he is not co-equal with God. Satan is not even a little god (see Isaiah 10:5-19 and Isaiah 30:31-33). He is a cherub, a heavenly created being. And his job originally was to cover the Mercy Seat, i.e., God's Throne (Ezek.28:13-18). Since God gave him free will to either love Him or rebel, he chose to rebel because he coveted God's Place and Throne (Isaiah 14). So God ended that time of old with Satan's rebellion, and He then judged and sentenced him and his angels that rebelled with him to perish in the future lake of fire (Isaiah 30:31-33). When our Lord Jesus came to die on the cross, Satan knew that would seal his judgment, so he continually tried to prevent Christ's birth from the Seed of the Woman, even down to the time of king Herod trying to destroy baby Jesus by ordering all firstborn destroyed.

So for one who listens to God and His Son in His Word, and has Faith on Him and doesn't doubt Him, we don't have to be concerned about what Satan does. God is not angry with us. He is using Satan as a punishing rod upon the wicked and rebellious. Now if we listen to man instead of Him, and we become deceived by them, His hand will be upon us to correct us, so we repent and get back in the fold. For those who continuously disobey Him and His Word, they go their own way, and He will allow it for those who so wish, but not for one of His very elect that He already owns; those He will manipulate to do His Will because He already owned them before the foundation of the world (John 17).

 

[Davy]

Ok. They bought swords and He was numbered among them as a thief. Did they use them? John 18:36
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

What He said there is correct too; His time for His servants to fight is on the last day of this world at Armageddon. But that doesn't reverse His command there to His disciples, for those who didn't have one, to go buy a sword.

So let's make sure we cover what all He said, and don't try to reverse the simple Scripture as written just for some politically correct motive of men:

Luke 22:35-38
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."

36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, 'And he was reckoned among the transgressors': for the things concerning Me have an end."

38 And they said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." And He said unto them, "It is enough."
KJV


For all practical purposes, that seals it. Jesus showed us we have the right to defend ourselves. And when He said, "It is enough" about the disciples who held up two swords, it means just enough to do the job, and not to go crazy with hording arms. This is why the U.S. founding fathers made it explicit in the U.S. Constitution that the right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You keep bring that up about loving our enemies. I'm not sure how you interpret to love our enemies that our Lord Jesus commanded us. If you look at His telling His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword for those of them that didn't have one, that reveals He didn't mean for us to just lay down in front of our enemies and let them run over us. His disciples were being sent out on the open road where there would be thieves and wild animals. He gave them the right to defend themselves (and us too).

Turning the other cheek was not an example of a death threatening situation. It was about when we preach The Gospel and the haters smack us on the face for doing so; in that situation we offer them the other cheek also. But if a robber, or murderer is coming at you to kill, Jesus gave us the right to defend ourselves, which is what His command to go buy a sword is about.

So to love our enemies can mean tough love too. Sometimes it means using military force for them to begin to understand God's ways.




That is about Christ's Judgment Seat which we all must appear before. It doesn't mean He is going to automatically save everybody. If the wicked were saved then it would not be written that they go into the lake of fire.

And if you'll notice, I have never said any certain one (except for Satan and his angels) was already condemned to perish in the future lake of fire. It's not my call, but our Lord Jesus' only. So I don't know why you'd bring up that matter. It certainly has no ascendancy of Christian power over me. I know who my Lord Jesus Christ is.

The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed in Christ. Consider all those unclean things God commanded to be put without the gate as Lazarus lay without the gate whom the rich man passed by. All those unclean commanded BY God to be put without the camp and stoned to death. The lepers. The unclean bleeding women. The man picking up sticks on the sabbath. (Numbers 31:16-24)... But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. [19] And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. [20] And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair , and all things made of wood. [21] And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses; [22] Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, [23] Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: ...

Leviticus 21:17-20
[17] Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. [18] For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, [19] Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, [20] Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

... harsh. But the New Testament reveals the Old Testament in the face of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 13:12-13 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.


And we know that all those “unclean” placed without the camp, without the gate where Lazarus lay...IS where HE came. Where He suffered with those “unclean”. HE came FOR the “unclean”. The New Testament should reveal the Love clearly seen in the Old Testament in the face of Jesus Christ. All I’m suggesting is if it doesn’t line up with what is revealed in the face of Christ ...then maybe we haven’t fully understood yet....like the Lake of Fire. I’ve read what it says, sure, only would God make a person solely as waste? Give them no sight, only to serve as a vessel of destruction.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For all practical purposes, that seals it. Jesus showed us we have the right to defend ourselves. And when He said, "It is enough" about the disciples who held up two swords, it means just enough to do the job, and not to go crazy with hording arms

1 Chronicles 21:15
[15] And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Matthew 10:24-25
[24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. [25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

Mark 14:41 KJV
[41] And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.


Hebrews 13:6
[6] So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

 

[Trekson]

I don't see the Church on earth fighting the Antichrist's army at all.

It's not the church Davy, it's the three kings, the king of the north (Russia+),the kings of the south (an Islamic army) and the kings of the east (China, Rev. 9:16 , 16:12-14) they will be rebelling against the a/c, that is what causes Armageddon in the first place. The war to end all wars, but Jesus comes at this time while they are all together to defeat them all in one clean sweep and reclaim His kingdom. The church will have been in heaven for a while before Armageddon begins and there are a lot of folks who believe the church is the army of Rev. 19, not angels.

For without are … "Without" doesn't mean right outside the gates, it means outside of the kingdom of God, the ones who never will be let in.

I still maintain that the 2 rivers are different. Only those who enter the new heavens and earth will have access to it, there will be no sinners around to abuse it. But if it was the same one in the millennium than all the peoples, saints and sinners alike would have access to it and that would be totally contrary to God's plan and promises.

 

[Trekson]

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Consider this Corel, how much time do you think it would take for these kingdoms to get everything together, transport their armies to Armageddon? It's not going to be done overnight plus they have no idea that Christ is coming, they have all refused repentance and have denied the fact of His existence over and over. Yes, they will all be together and yes, they will all fight against Christ but they don't know that until they see Christ coming. The purpose of the battle is for the three kings to takedown the a/c because they are sick of his rule.

 

[Trekson]

I’ve read what it says, sure, only would God make a person solely as waste? Give them no sight, only to serve as a vessel of destruction.

I would suggest reading Rom. 9:20-23.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I would suggest reading Rom. 9:20-23.

Romans 9:19-23
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

True the vessels of dishonor are fitted for destruction so that God may show mercy on the meek, the desolate, and the poor in spirit ...who were prepared unto glory and Honour.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
[20] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared (in Christ)unto every good work.

Romans 11:30-33
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

 

[CoreIssue]

Consider this Corel, how much time do you think it would take for these kingdoms to get everything together, transport their armies to Armageddon? It's not going to be done overnight plus they have no idea that Christ is coming, they have all refused repentance and have denied the fact of His existence over and over. Yes, they will all be together and yes, they will all fight against Christ but they don't know that until they see Christ coming. The purpose of the battle is for the three kings to takedown the a/c because they are sick of his rule.

First of all Satan no ahead of time so time is not an issue.

Second, they are not there to take down the AC.

Revelation 16:13-14 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 19:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

 

[Trekson]

First of all Satan no ahead of time so time is not an issue. Satan won't know, only God will.

Second, they are not there to take down the AC.

Revelation 16:13-14 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. Could they use a lie, a ruse, a deception to get them where God ultimately wants them to be?
Revelation 19:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Yes, they are there and John knows what they are there for but unless you think Jesus and his army are just going to be sitting around in the sky waiting to be noticed then twiddling his thumbs and hang around for weeks until the whole world gets all their forces into one place, then we can know they are there for alternative reasons. There is nothing in scripture that implies an advance warning of his appearance, imo.