The Rest of The Dead

[ScottA]

It appears that you are dancing and dodging around an invisible pole, that you prefer not to show me.

When Jesus is reveald and appears from Heaven, it is apparent that the Beast and the kings and their armies shall SEE Him, because the Beast and the kings and their armies shall wage war against Christ and his army. Revelation 19[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Or is this invisible to you also?

Since you are denying the truth of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 as to become a literal event, upon the Lord's visible and Glorious return, surely you must have in waiting, a proposal for an alternative scenario.
So, lets hear it!

Sorry Scott, you have made no case of proving anything against what I say, because you are presenting nothing that opposes it, except to say that I am in error. Your words against me are meaningless.
I am beginning to suspect that you are preaching another gospel. The one that states that Jesus has already returned! I am hoping that is not the case, because at the moment, you are sounding very JW to me.

Not typical, but rather truthful. The pharisees could not discern the Lord's thoughts through His words!
You are presenting nothing thats telling me otherwise.

You have much to learn.

Jesus is God ("I am"). "God is spirit." "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is not "dancing and dodging around an invisible pole", it is the truth from God. Question is, why are you so against hearing it?

 

[ScottA]

Since that is what you believe, then you ARE denying scripture. Why is it that you don't answer my question, concerning Luke 25:39? Was Jesus lying?

After His Resurrection, Jesus didn't say that He was "flesh and blood". He said that He was "flesh and bone". Now do you comprehend how much of a fact His Immortal body was different?? He wasn't resuscitated, HE WAS resurrected into Newness of Life, aka Immortality.
Oooppps my error in the above posts: I meant
KJV Luke 24:39

I am not denying the scripture. On the contrary, I am explaining it to you, things you do not know.

Nonetheless, in Luke chapter 24, when Jesus appeared to the apostles after He rose from the dead, you are confusing His resurrection with His ascension. They are two different events.

Jesus' resurrection revealed His power over life and death. Indeed, He was not a spirit. But "God is spirit", and spirit is all that Jesus committed to the Father. Thus, in His ascension, that is all that went to the Father. His body then became His church: “Take, eat; this is My body.” But "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Nor can "bone", for bone is of the "elements" which are "destroyed with fervent heat and with fire."

Two different events, which must be rightly divided.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus is God. God is spirit. These are the biblical facts. There is nothing "physical" about God. Physical manifestations are "vanity."

"His New physical body" (as you say) is not biblical.

Here is the account of the biblical witness, that Jesus was Resurrected into the physical immortality of His New Life:
John 20[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 24[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

[Earburner]

To Scott and all, I apologize for my errors/ typos in referencing the the biblical accounts of Jesus' Resurrection in all my above posts.

Here is what I should've done in the first place, so that you can reference them yourselves:
All of Luke 24:1-53
All of John 20:1-31

 

[Earburner]

Now, in the above accounts, which I finally have recorded correctly, it is quite evident that Jesus is physically present with the disciples, in His New Life of His Immortal Body, after His Resurrection.
I think the issue of contention, is when He Ascends to His Father. In any case, we have this account in Acts 1:1-12

 

[Earburner]

Therefore, in all that we read in those accounts, I can safely conclude that Jesus has the ability/capacity to manifest Himself in both His Physical form, as well as Spirit.

Lest we forget, Jesus as Spirit came from Heaven and was made of mortal flesh and blood, and is now after His Resurrection, in His New and Immortal body, of "flesh and bone", but is also Spirit, giving Him the ability to Live in each manifestation at will.
I believe that is what you are not thoroughly digesting.

Now, as He did Ascend to the Father, being seen by the disciples in bodily form, He has sent the Promise of His Holy Spirit, being Himself and the Father to each of us who are of faith in Him, whereby through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit within us, we are the Body (temple) of both the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father together.

John 14[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[Earburner]

You have much to learn.

Jesus is God ("I am"). "God is spirit." "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

This is not "dancing and dodging around an invisible pole", it is the truth from God. Question is, why are you so against hearing it?

Your verse selection is speaking of the Day of Pentecost and not the Day of His Resurrection.

I am not against hearing and agreeing with truth!
But it appears that you have disagreed with the scriptures, that say Jesus was Resurrected into a body of "bone and flesh", of which He did say, that a spirit does not possess.
Therefore, before His R., He was "flesh and blood", but after His R., He was " flesh and bone".
Now, can we get that far, and just agree with that?

 

[ScottA]

Here is the account of the biblical witness, that Jesus was Resurrected into the physical immortality of His New Life:
John 20[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29] Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 24[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.

You are not listening, hearing but not perceiving.

As I explained, Jesus' resurrection is not the same as His ascension. They are two different events. His resurrection from the dead was indeed flesh and blood, but then just as He had given His body to His church and only His spirit to the Father, that is exactly what happened.

But those born of the flesh see only the things of the flesh.

 

[Earburner]

You are not listening, hearing but not perceiving.

As I explained, Jesus' resurrection is not the same as His ascension. They are two different events. His resurrection from the dead was indeed flesh and blood, but then just as He had given His body to His church and only His spirit to the Father, that is exactly what happened.

But those born of the flesh see only the things of the flesh.

I am very sure that you are either misreading scripture, or you are purposely denying it!

Jesus was NOT resuscitated back into His old mortal life, but rather Resurrected into NEW Immortal Life.
Try to comprehend the following words:
Luke 24[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me HAVE.

Conclusion: Jesus was no longer "flesh and blood", but through His Resurrection, had become
"flesh and bone".
Which is meaning that there was NO blood in His New Immortal Body!!

 

[Earburner]

Now, here is the kicker. For one to have "flesh", as we understand it, the blood in our veins NOURISHES IT, thus keeping our "outer organ" alive.
So, what did God say about our "flesh and blood" life?
Leviticus 17[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:...".
However, in Jesus' torment before the cross and on the cross, with the nails through His hands and His feet, not to mention the spear penetrating His side, He lost a substantial amount of blood! So much so, it would've been impossible for Him to come back to life on His own, even if their was a process of resuscitation performed on Him.

So then, understanding what God said about "flesh and blood" in Leviticus, and what we do know about it through Medical Science, please tell me HOW Jesus became Alive, after death, as being "flesh and bone", WITHOUT blood!

 

[ScottA]

I am very sure that you are either misreading scripture, or you are purposely denying it!

Jesus was NOT resuscitated back into His old mortal life, but rather Resurrected into NEW Immortal Life.
Try to comprehend the following words:
Luke 24[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me HAVE.

Conclusion: Jesus was no longer "flesh and blood", but through His Resurrection, had become
"flesh and bone".
Which is meaning that there was NO blood in His New Immortal Body!!

Now, here is the kicker. For one to have "flesh", as we understand it, the blood in our veins NOURISHES IT, thus keeping our "outer organ" alive.
So, what did God say about our "flesh and blood" life?
Leviticus 17[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:...".
However, in Jesus' torment before the cross and on the cross, with the nails through His hands and His feet, not to mention the spear penetrating His side, He lost a substantial amount of blood! So much so, it would've been impossible for Him to come back to life on His own, even if their was a process of resuscitation performed on Him.

So then, understanding what God said about "flesh and blood" in Leviticus, and what we do know about it through Medical Science, please tell me HOW Jesus became Alive, after death, as being "flesh and bone", WITHOUT blood!

You're still not getting it.

Jesus' resurrection of being raised from the dead in a physical body is one event with certain physical and worldly laws in place, but His ascension where He follows through on only committing His spirit to the Father, is not the same. He had a physical body which He gave to the church, and a spiritual body which He committed to the Father. But you are mixing the two together...and your whole line about "flesh and blood" verse "flesh and bone", is just evidence of a complete lack of understanding the difference between what is born of the flesh and what is born of the spirit.

The flesh returns to the dust and the elements of the earth which are destroyed by fervent heat and with fire, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Nothing else is biblical. There is no such thing as a "glorified flesh body."

 

[OzSpen]

If you believe in amillennialism, you believe the millennium started after Christ's ascension, right? Well, scripture also teaches that during the millennium, Satan will be bound. That is far from true, isn't it?

CL,

My Presbyterian pastor who is Amillennial (he has to be to be ordained in that denomination). He preached through Daniel and has just finish an exposition of the Book of Revelation. He stated emphatically that right now Satan is bound and there were 'Amens' from some in the congregation.

What is Amillennialism?

Speaking symbollically like the rest of Revelation, the millennium is simply a figurative way of speaking of a long period of time that is taking place after Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God with his resurrection. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 is one of a series of visions, each of which describes the entire period of time between Christ's first and second comings in a different manner. The millennial Kingdom is taking place now, for Satan has been bound by Christ's work on the cross, so that he can no longer hold all the nations in deception; and believers, who seem to be persecuted and afflicted, are really reigning with Christ, and causing his Kingdom, which does not now come visibly, to spread to every corner of the earth. There is a difference of opinion in amillennial interpretation over whether those who reign with Christ are believers who are still alive, or those who have died in the Lord, and are now in his presence (source).​

So, Satan has been bound since Christ's work on the cross. Those persecuted believers are reigning with Christ - that's the amillennial view.

What I found most difficult with my pastor in his exposition of the Book of Revelation is that he didn't deal with the text but imposed his amillennial interpretation on it.

Oz

 

[CharismaticLady]

CL,

My Presbyterian pastor who is Amillennial (he has to be to be ordained in that denomination). He preached through Daniel and has just finish an exposition of the Book of Revelation. He stated emphatically that right now Satan is bound and there were 'Amens' from some in the congregation.

What is Amillennialism?

Speaking symbollically like the rest of Revelation, the millennium is simply a figurative way of speaking of a long period of time that is taking place after Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God with his resurrection. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 is one of a series of visions, each of which describes the entire period of time between Christ's first and second comings in a different manner. The millennial Kingdom is taking place now, for Satan has been bound by Christ's work on the cross, so that he can no longer hold all the nations in deception; and believers, who seem to be persecuted and afflicted, are really reigning with Christ, and causing his Kingdom, which does not now come visibly, to spread to every corner of the earth. There is a difference of opinion in amillennial interpretation over whether those who reign with Christ are believers who are still alive, or those who have died in the Lord, and are now in his presence (source).​

So, Satan has been bound since Christ's work on the cross. Those persecuted believers are reigning with Christ - that's the amillennial view.

What I found most difficult with my pastor in his exposition of the Book of Revelation is that he didn't deal with the text but imposed his amillennial interpretation on it.

Oz

That seems sad to me.

 

[Earburner]

1. But you are mixing the two together...and your whole line about "flesh and blood" verse "flesh and bone", is just evidence of a complete lack of understanding the difference between what is born of the flesh and what is born of the spirit.

2. The flesh returns to the dust and the elements of the earth which are destroyed by fervent heat and with fire, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Nothing else is biblical. There is no such thing as a "glorified flesh body."

John 10[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

1. Oh not at all! I have a complete understanding of the reality, that took place in His death and His Resurrection.
But, before we can actually go on to His Ascension, there is quite alot of ground to cover.

To say that Jesus came back to life again in His mortal existence, with "flesh and blood", is to defy the issue about His lack of a blood supply, after His heart pumped it all out. Shall you say that He gave Himself a transfusion?
And if so, what about His heart and brain etc. being absolutely dead and lifeless for three days?

Did He resuscitate and restore Himself back to mortality, or did He RESURRECT Himself into "NEW Life", with Immortality, as the Father gave Him power to do so? The latter, I am sure!

2. No!! HIs flesh DID NOT turn to dust (corruption), but yours and mine most surely will "see corruption", that is if He doesn't return from Heaven right now!

Acts 13[28] And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
[29] And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
[30] But God raised him from the dead:
[31] And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
[32] And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
[34] And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
[35] Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[36] For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
[37] But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Now, lets go back a bit in Jesus' life, and look at The Transfiguration. Do you not see that Jesus' Spirit within His mortal flesh and blood existence then, was Immortal?
Therefore, when Jesus Resurrected from the grave, His mortal flesh and blood existence permanently "changed" into His Immortal "flesh and bone" existence of "NEW Life", being Himself "the First resurrection", of "a NEW creation", "the Firstborn from the dead".

 

[Earburner]

CL,

My Presbyterian pastor who is Amillennial (he has to be to be ordained in that denomination). He preached through Daniel and has just finish an exposition of the Book of Revelation. He stated emphatically that right now Satan is bound and there were 'Amens' from some in the congregation.

What is Amillennialism?

Speaking symbollically like the rest of Revelation, the millennium is simply a figurative way of speaking of a long period of time that is taking place after Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom of God with his resurrection. Amillennialists believe Revelation 20 is one of a series of visions, each of which describes the entire period of time between Christ's first and second comings in a different manner. The millennial Kingdom is taking place now, for Satan has been bound by Christ's work on the cross, so that he can no longer hold all the nations in deception; and believers, who seem to be persecuted and afflicted, are really reigning with Christ, and causing his Kingdom, which does not now come visibly, to spread to every corner of the earth. There is a difference of opinion in amillennial interpretation over whether those who reign with Christ are believers who are still alive, or those who have died in the Lord, and are now in his presence (source).​

So, Satan has been bound since Christ's work on the cross. Those persecuted believers are reigning with Christ - that's the amillennial view.

What I found most difficult with my pastor in his exposition of the Book of Revelation is that he didn't deal with the text but imposed his amillennial interpretation on it.

Oz

Here is the evidence that satan WAS bound in the time of Christ's death and Resurrection, for the purposes of **God's longsuffering, that He may save as many as He can, in the generations to come, being forward from the Day of Pentecost.
Matthew 12:29
Mark 3:27
**Note- the mentioning of "a thousand years as one day" etc. is because there is NO time limit on God's longsuffering for our salvation- 2 Peter 3:8. Its the reason also, of WHY even Jesus Himself did not the time of His return in flaming fire.

However, Jesus did give us a clue, of what the CAUSE of His return will be. HE said it in
Luke 18:8, of which the Holy Spirit in Paul, pointed to it also, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Did you figure out who the "goods" are that satan has captured, and Jesus shall make "free indeed" ?
Yes! You do know! AMen!!

Gods Blessing upon You!
Earburner

 

[Earburner]

^edit: did not know the time of His return...

 

[ScottA]

John 10[17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

1. Oh not at all! I have a complete understanding of the reality, that took place in His death and His Resurrection.
But, before we can actually go on to His Ascension, there is quite alot of ground to cover.

To say that Jesus came back to life again in His mortal existence, with "flesh and blood", is to defy the issue about His lack of a blood supply, after His heart pumped it all out. Shall you say that He gave Himself a transfusion?
And if so, what about His heart and brain etc. being absolutely dead and lifeless for three days?

Did He resuscitate and restore Himself back to mortality, or did He RESURRECT Himself into "NEW Life", with Immortality, as the Father gave Him power to do so? The latter, I am sure!

You are assuming what I said means what you describe above, but that is not what I said. But in your assumption you also assume that He remained in the flesh and will forever be made of flesh and bone, as you said. But that is not biblical...and now I am repeating what I have already repeated many times already:

The flesh returns to dust and is destroyed with fervent heat and with fire, and only the spirit returns to God.
​

Which means that your error has Jesus not returning to God the Father. Which is biblically and spiritually impossible, and simply not true.

 

[ScottA]

2. No!! HIs flesh DID NOT turn to dust (corruption), but yours and mine most surely will "see corruption", that is if He doesn't return from Heaven right now!

Acts 13[28] And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
[29] And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
[30] But God raised him from the dead:
[31] And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
[32] And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
[34] And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
[35] Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[36] For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
[37] But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Now, lets go back a bit in Jesus' life, and look at The Transfiguration. Do you not see that Jesus' Spirit within His mortal flesh and blood existence then, was Immortal?
Therefore, when Jesus Resurrected from the grave, His mortal flesh and blood existence permanently "changed" into His Immortal "flesh and bone" existence of "NEW Life", being Himself "the First resurrection", of "a NEW creation", "the Firstborn from the dead".

Again, it is not biblical to say that God lied in the scriptures to say that the flesh body returns to the dust. So, from the get go your premise is to call God a liar.

Why should I even read the rest of what you have written? You are apparently not up to hearing from God and believing, nor being reasonable.

And your idea of immortality is completely off. I too am immortal, as are all who have the gift of eternal life. But that immortality is not from being glorified with immortal flesh...but from being born of God, who is [only] spirit. And none of your understanding and quoting makes void the truth that the flesh returns to the dust and is destroyed. It just doesn't.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus' resurrection of being raised from the dead in a physical body is one event with certain physical and worldly laws in place, but His ascension where He follows through on only committing His spirit to the Father, is not the same. He had a physical body which He gave to the church, and a spiritual body which He committed to the Father. But you are mixing the two together...and your whole line about "flesh and blood" verse "flesh and bone", is just evidence of a complete lack of understanding the difference between what is born of the flesh and what is born of the spirit.

Then might I point you back to the FIRST miracle, being that of Jesus's flesh and blood birth through the virgin Mary. That event most assuredly did not follow "certain physical wordly laws in place".
So, why in His death and Resurrection must it apply then?
And you think that I DON'T understand?

 

[Earburner]

And your idea of immortality is completely off. I too am immortal, as are all who have the gift of eternal life. But that immortality is not from being glorified with immortal flesh...but from being born of God, who is [only] spirit. And none of your understanding and quoting makes void the truth that the flesh returns to the dust and is destroyed. It just doesn't.

As I said- in this Age of God's Grace, our F&B bodies DO TURN to dust, hence THE NEED and requirement for OUR resurrection into HIS LIKENESS.

In Acts, the disciples watched Jesus with their own eyes Ascend into Heaven. IN His Ascension, He was NOT a spirit.
Furthermore, the two angels said:
Acts 1:10-11,Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Jesus physically ascended into Heaven, and upon his return, shall descend from Heaven physically.