The Resurrection is for all people (thank you Yeshua!)

[Scott Downey]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

 

[face2face]

@MatthewG @Aunty Jane

If you read the next verse what does the personification mean?

Revelation 20:14

20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

Ignore those with fanciful notions allow yourselves to see the imagery of verse 13 and now the personification of God's judgement!

 

[Scott Downey]

The damned lost whose end is destruction in hell fire. Eternal burnings, away from the presence of God, permanently separated.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

Contrasted with the saved
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[face2face]

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Yes we established everlasting destruction (or cutting off) is language used of the permanency of death.

 

[face2face]

The damned lost whose end is destruction in hell fire. Eternal burnings, away from the presence of God, permanently separated.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

Contrasted with the saved
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

yes again the permanency of the grave is in view.

 

[MatthewG]

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬



Who is the they in this passage? It is talking about a particular group of people or simply just people who don’t know God or don’t obey the Gospel at all? Are these perhaps those who perverted the Gospel? Did they exist in that time or should it be taken for all people? It talks about him on the day of his return as well, here in the passage, so there is a lot to consider.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay thank you, so Sea is talking about the Gentile Nations then @face2face.

 

[face2face]

Okay thank you, so Sea is talking about the Gentile Nations then @face2face.

Correct.

Consider this also MattG

1:9 God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let dry ground appear.” It was so. and the gathered waters he called “seas.” God saw that it was good.

It's an echo Exodus 14:29

Can you see what the imagery of dry land represents?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

The Sea is always used in the Revelation as the Nations and it's logically to think that Heaven is not the place of the dead - its out of death & the grave that corrupted bodies will be raised and judged either for life or for permanent death.

The time frame is when Christ returns as judge. So regardless of what kind of “grave” these people were in, (sea or land) Jesus promised to resurrect them, (John 5:28-29)....not as corrupted bodies but as a new creation. Why would Jesus resurrect corrupted bodies? When he resurrected Lazarus, his sister said that he would be decomposing by then, (4 days in the grave) but Jesus resurrected Lazarus in a healthy body free of whatever it was that took his life. God can give the dead a new body....why wouldn’t he?

Did you notice the issue though with the first phrase?

It's clear the Spirit is referring to those in the Nations who are alive at the time of Christs coming but are as though they are dead! Not literally dead, but figuratively dead!!! - the Spirit goes onto say also that the those who are death and in the grave (hades) will be resurrected.

1. Those alive at his coming
2. Those in the grave

Again, you’ve put your own spin on these things. No unrighteous ones will survive the judgment when Christ arrives as judge. There will only be “sheep and goats” alive at that time. All the “goats” will be dispatched to the place reserved for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) Everlasting death. Satan will join them later in “the lake of fire”, after God releases satan for one final test....after the thousand year reign of Christ.

Those who have not had their faith tested will be tried at that final test, and those who pass it will go on to inherit the life God planned for humans at the beginning. (Revelation 21:2-4)
Those who fail will accompany the devil and his angels into everlasting cutting off. God has only ever offered life or death, but he allows us to choose our own course. We will live of die according to our own choices.

I know it's an odd way to phrase but everyone who is alive during the Millennium are dead until they are judged according to their deeds.

Those “alive” during the millennium will have their place by two means...one group will be the survivors of the great tribulation...those who have already “endured to the end” of the current system of things (Matthew 24:13)....and the other group will be those who, in times past, had lived and died in ignorance. They will have a thousand years, free of the devil’s influence, to be educated in God’s ways and to embrace the truth. (Revelation 20:1-3)

@Aunty Jane - can you see how the imagery of the Sea's are the Nations, it's an apt description? See Revelation 15:2 "A sea of glass" this glassy sea is a sea that is crystal calm. It's a symbol that describes the nations at rest in contrast to Isaiah 57:20-21. Also see Revelation 4:6

Yes, the sea can be a symbol of mankind’s turbulent activity. Periods of calm are interspersed with periods of immense destruction. It is a great symbol of opposites.

A sea can be calm or tumultuous depending on the context of the passage. As I will continue to do Jane - each time this beautiful imagery is revealed I will show you its interpretation. So so many in the Lords final message to us!

I worry that you speak like someone who sees themselves in a position of authority to teach others about what the Bible says......yet here you are as a sole messenger.....do you not see the danger in speaking about the scriptures without anyone else teaching what you believe...? I’m sure that you believe that God has revealed these things to you, but in all honesty, can you name me any Christian messenger of God who spoke only what he alone believed?

If you read the next verse what does the personification mean?

Revelation 20:14

20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

Ignore those with fanciful notions allow yourselves to see the imagery of verse 13 and now the personification of God's judgement!

“The lake of fire” is “Gehenna”....both are symbols of eternal death. These are symbolic because “death and hades” cannot literally be thrown anywhere. God will eliminate these enemies of human life just as surely as he eliminates all those who fail to obey him.

Again what is this imagery? Whose imagination are you displaying?
What you promote is your own opinion, and on a forum like this, really holds no weight because there is no one to back you up. The first Christians had a brotherhood who all accepted the same truth (1 Corinthians 1:10)....they met together regularly to “incite to love and fine works” (Hebrew 10:24-25)

Where is your brotherhood? Who else believes what you believe? Who else sees the “imagery” that you do.....? Red flag buddy.

 

[Earburner]

When you say transfiguration what brings to my mind @Earburner is the fullness of the Lord Yeshua, being with his Father in fulness showing the Lord Yeshua to be the Lord God Almighty.

Yeah, perhaps haven't gotten to that part of looking into about Jesus and his bodily resurrection: Other than I believe that it happened; though it is strange, like this:


Why is this wrote this way?


Why is this also wrote this way? The Lord and My God part I understand, but why did Thomas touch Jesus, here but Mary couldn't? Jesus also told Thomas not to doubt : but to believe.

If anyone has any insights I would like to know but please make it easy for me to read and understand if it is possible.

Thank you so much.

If a friend suffered and died a horrible death, that you were an eye witness to, and then after three days was up and about talking casually to you, your mind would tell you that it is another person, until you slowly recognized their voice.
Our minds will not recognize literal dead people in the flesh talking to us, unless we were told beforehand that such event would happen.

As for Thomas:
John 20
[24] But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
[25] The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
[26] And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28] And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
In verse 28, Jesus invited Thomas to do that which Jesus had heard Thomas say, what it was that he wanted to do eight days prior to seeing Jesus.
I percieve that Thomas never did touch Jesus, but was convinced right then and there, that it was Jesus Himself, simply because He repeated his own words back to him, of His own private request, which was eight days earlier.

 

[face2face]

The time frame is when Christ returns as judge. So regardless of what kind of “grave” these people were in, (sea or land) Jesus promised to resurrect them, (John 5:28-29)....not as corrupted bodies but as a new creation.

Here we go again Aunty Jane!

So you believe in immortal emergence?

Do you make Paul contradict himself? In Galatians 6:8 he says,

Galatians 6:8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

Paul is teaching that this person will suffer a second death having died the first time and raised to judgement, he/she now dies as a result of their evil deeds. But if you say he/she emerges from the grave incorruptible, how is he/she to reap corruption?

Your problem, is you dont understand the reward of divine nature, and what that means - you believe divine angels can sin therefore you reward is marred!

Sad to be you...you dont have the whole story yet!

F2F

 

[face2face]

No unrighteous ones will survive the judgment when Christ arrives as judge. There will only be “sheep and goats” alive at that time. All the “goats” will be dispatched to the place reserved for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) Everlasting death. Satan will join them later in “the lake of fire”, after God releases satan for one final test....after the thousand year reign of Christ.

No they will simply reap permanent corruption which is everlasting death.
You dont seem to know the true nature of the adversary and their messengers!

Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

It's already been proven many times that death is eternal punishment not the torturing of some fanciful immortal soul just a life forgotten!

 

[face2face]

I worry....

You shouldn't worry about me Jane...it's the erroneous teachings you hold that is more of a concern.
It's noted you couldn't even agree that the Sea in Revelation represents the Nations. Other's would see this and instantly know what you are about! You have been indoctrinated and your bias is all over your posts.
Try it sometime Jane - agreeing with someone, its rather liberating!

 

[face2face]

“The lake of fire” is “Gehenna”....both are symbols of eternal death. These are symbolic because “death and hades” cannot literally be thrown anywhere. God will eliminate these enemies of human life just as surely as he eliminates all those who fail to obey him.

Praise Yahweh for you correctly identified with the symbol (it's possible!) and gave a correct understanding of it! And just to prove your interpretation is correct that the destruction of death and the grave is in fact to take place at the end of the millennial age, we read 1 Corinthians 15:26
Amen to that vision!

....I wonder if you are able to learn the meaning of more divine imagery?

 

[face2face]

These are symbolic because “death and hades” cannot literally be thrown anywhere.

Death and the grave are literal realities, though for it be said they are thrown is a personification, like someone thrown into a lake. Now the lake of fire is an analogy which is similar to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is set forth as "an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

Jude 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns,34 since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire35 in a way similar to36 these angels,37 are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

= Christians, they all perished just more imagery!!!!

The fire of God's judgment consumed those cities without remedy (Lamentations 4:6)

It's impossible Jane to interpret the Lords Words in the Revelation without first making an effort to understand how he communicates. I tried to show you from Ezekiel 28 and then Isaiah 14, but you did...what only you do!

 

[Earburner]

Correct.

Consider this also MattG

1:9 God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place and let dry ground appear.” It was so. and the gathered waters he called “seas.” God saw that it was good.

It's an echo Exodus 14:29

Can you see what the imagery of dry land represents?

Here is an interesting verse to lend support to what you are saying.
Rev.21[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more "sea".

If you have read any of my previous posts in this thread, you will gather that I no longer view that the New heaven and the NEW Earth is a make up similar to what is now, but rather it is Jesus Himself who is (the New heaven), and we His redeemed Saints are (the New earth).
Why???

Better yet, Why not!
Jesus has been in His resurrected body for over 2000 years now, and requires no sustenance from anything of a "global" earth. He has no need of plants, trees, animals or water!!
And since we also are going to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.......WHY are we thinking that we shall NEED this earth, or another one similar to it?? WE WON'T!!
John.14[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John.17[24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Isaiah 55:8-9.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here we go again Aunty Jane!

So you believe in immortal emergence?

Do you make Paul contradict himself? In Galatians 6:8 he says,

Galatians 6:8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

Paul is teaching that this person will suffer a second death having died the first time and raised to judgement, he/she now dies as a result of their evil deeds. But if you say he/she emerges from the grave incorruptible, how is he to reap corruption?

F2F

Ah.. the word according to F2F....is that what I said?
You are so quick to misinterpret what I say.

I believe in two destinies.....do you? We believe that the Christian scriptures were written by and primarily for the “elect”. Who are the elect to you?

It is the elect who will experience the “first resurrection” (Revelation 20:6) These will be given a spiritual resurrection and will join Jesus in heaven to make up the “Kingdom of God” that will rule over the redeemed ones on Earth and bring them back the life that they lost at the beginning.....everlasting life in paradise on earth.....i.e. mortal life dependent upon access to the tree of life.....but we know what happened then. (at least some of us do)

Everlasting life is not immortality. It seems as if too many people make that mistake. Immortality can only be experienced in an imperishable body...i.e. one that does not need external means to continue living. Yet both humans and angels can die because they are not immortal. Their continued existence depends on obedience to the Creator. Both can experience eternal death.

So only two earthly groups are ever mentioned in scripture at the time of the end.....”sheep and goats”....or.....”wheat and weeds”. These are travelling one of two roads....one to life, the other to death. (Matthew 7:13-14) Simple...why do you need to complicate everything?

Those found to be unworthy of life will be eliminated from existence, having proven to God already that they are more interested in doing their own will, than God’s will. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Those resurrected in the “new earth” to come, (2 Peter 3:13) will be given either “life or judgment” (John 5:28-29) depending upon whether they have lived a life according to a God-given conscience and whether they can adjust to a new way of living....God’s way. The thousand year reign of Christ will be a time of education and enjoyment, again allowing people to make their decisions based on what they have been taught by the reigning “kings and priests” hand picked by God for that role. But free will means that God does not dictate to any of us...he simply tells it like it is, and allows us to choose our course. Some will not make it past the final test at the end of the thousand years, having decided to do what Adam and his wife had done in Eden. But once Jesus hands back the reins to his God and Father, everything will go back to the way it was meant to be before sin overtook the world.....(Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[face2face]

Ah.. the word according to F2F....is that what I said?
These will be given a spiritual resurrection and will join Jesus in heaven to make up the “Kingdom of God” that will rule over the redeemed ones on Earth and bring them back the life that they lost at the beginning.....everlasting life in paradise on earth.....i.e. mortal life dependent upon access to the tree of life.....but we know what happened then. (at least some of us do)

So you believe Jesus remains in Heaven? For how long?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's impossible Jane to interpret the Lords Words in the Revelation without first making an effort to understand how he communicates. I tried to show you from Ezekiel 28 and then Isaiah 14, but you did...what only you do!

Well this just made me smile.....you forget it isn’t only me....I have an entire brotherhood (over 8.5 million) who are found all over the world and who believe exactly as I do....what about you.....? Oh the irony....

Only you know how the Lord communicates? Right?......do you understand how many patients in psychiatric hospitals believe that God only Communicates with them? You cannot be a lone Christian....can you come to terms with that? No brotherhood....no truth.

 

[face2face]

Here is an interesting verse to lend support to what you are saying.
Rev.21[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more "sea".

If you have read any of my previous posts in this thread, you will gather that I no longer view that the New heaven and the NEW Earth is a make up similar to what is now, but rather it is Jesus Himself who is (the New heaven), and we His redeemed Saints are (the New earth).
Why???

Better yet, Why not!
Jesus has been in His resurrected body for over 2000 years now, and requires no sustenance from anything of a "global" earth. He has no need of plants, trees, animals or water!!
And since we also are going to be resurrected into the likeness of His immortality.......WHY are we thinking that we shall NEED this earth, or another one similar to it?? WE WON'T!!
John.14[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John.17[24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Isaiah 55:8-9.

Yes, the Heaven and Earth here are symbolic with Scripture speaking of various constitutions in the earth. The "first heaven" for example was the Kingdom of God, as natural Israel as established under the Mosaic covenant (Deuteronomy 32:1; Isaiah 1:2).

It came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 as per 2 Peter 3:7.

The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming (coming Jane! Acts of the Apostles 1:11) with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel as per Acts of the Apostles 1:6; 2 Peter 3:13. As you can see Jane must believe Christ sits on David's throne in Heaven, whereas the Bible is clear that Christ must take up his throne on Earth! They misinterpret Revelation.

The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered up unto the Heavenly Father that He might be all and in all (1 Corinthians 15:24)

Really simple but not for many Christians they make a hash of it.
F2F