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The Rich man in Hell

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16

    Notice this...

    The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

    So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
    Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

    So, here is how to rightly divide The Word in cases like this..so that you are not overlapping the Old Covenant, on Top of the New Covenant, which of course, is how heretics believe and are created, actually.
    This is the result of "wrongly dividing" the word of God.

    Always remember, ...When Jesus was alive, before He Died, He was only dealing with the House of Israel., and He was "under the law".
    See that?
    So, when He is teaching, He is talking to JEWS who are under the law of Moses, and that is the OLD Covenant....and that would include the verse about the 'rich man in hell".

    After Jesus died on the Cross, the NEW Covenant and the NEW TESTAMENT began, and the "time of the Gentiles" began, and the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD came into effect as Paul showed up, and taught us that the "blood of Jesus" is a "one time eternal sacrifice", and we who have been born again, are not that Old Testament "rich man", who is under the law... But rather we the born again, (not just water baptized) are not under the law, we are "under GRACE", and this Grace, is the blood atonement that is "Jesus became Sin" and we who are born again are become "the Righteousness of GOD", 'In Christ"....
    See that? That is the NEW Covenant, and the "rich man in hell" was not born again and is under the LAW, = the OLD Covenant.

    Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.
     
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  2. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind sir the meaning of the parable, the rich man was Jehovah's covenanted people. They were the leaders of the Law covenant given through Moses, and the primary reason Jehovah took the Kingdom from them, and gave it to a nation producing it's fruits.
     
  3. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Robert Gwin, @Behold,

    The story of 'The Rich Man and Lazarus', was told to bring to light the hypocrisy of Pharisaic doctrine, and has nothing to do with the covenants, and it is not a parable, for the parables revealed the mysteries of the Kingdom (Luke 8:10) to those with ears to hear.

    The Pharisees believed it was possible for the dead to communicate with the living among other things. We know that the testimony of Scripture is that the dead know nothing, and that there is no consciousness in death. This story highlights their hypocrisy.

    The Old Covenant was made with Israel as a nation, and the New Covenant will be made with them too. It is in abeyance at the moment because Israel is in a lo-ammi condition in which God declared them 'not My People'. When Israel is once again, 'My People' in God's eyes, then the New Covenant will be made with them.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
  4. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in the text of Luke 16 indicates that vv. 14-31 is a parable. In fact there are indicators that it is not.

    You have to explain how Lazarus happens to be in 'Abraham's bosom' if you believe no one could be saved before the cross.

    Is Christ teaching deceitful myths and fairy tales?
     
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  5. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Stop right there! THIS IS NOT A PARABLE, IT IS A TRUE STORY, TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
    It is not symbolic and here is why:
    "If it was a parable, there would not be specific names of familiar people like Abraham and his spiritual location. Why describe two locations that exist after death in detail to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories.
    The message to us is that this rich man died and went to a place of fire and torment.
    This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he sleeping. He is consciously aware of his state of existence. He asks for only a drop of water since when he was living, the beggar only asked for scraps of food from him. Notice how his pride is no longer with him and he is humbled. Yet is it real humility or just another act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy and to receive more than a drop. When he realized there was no relief for him in any way, he asked to send Lazarus to his brothers (real people living) to warn them of this place of torment. The message is straight forward. The last line points to a parallel of Jesus death and resurrection and how many will not believe Him either. But this alone is not the intent of the entire story. Judgments throughout the Bible have been with fire - literally. That is the final means by which the Lord will destroy the ungodly and at the end of time, earth and the heavens too."
    ["Hell ... If I Know" by Ronald D. Bruno]
    This is not intended to promote this book, it is no longer in print - the Title was a mistake and too scary ... the cover too.

    Jesus was warning us of this place of torment. He used specifically a real person's experience to tell us that this place is for real!

    Prior to Christ, the unfaithful and ungodly souls went to Sheol (much deeper than six feet). I would discuss this further, but for now, only briefly. The afterlife existed before Christ. Sheol (Hades) was divided and separated as the scripture states, by a great gulf or chasm. The Rich man was in the place of torment and Abraham and Lazarus were in Paradise. This was referred to as Abraham's Bosom. Those who lived by faith, like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, and all of the Old Testament saints, were there in Paradise. Abraham would be there greeting them with a hug (at his bosom) and their existence was at peace and in beauty. Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mt. of Transfiguration, right. You must wonder where they have been and where did they come from. Still another division of the Underworld, the Netherworld existed as well. The Bottomless Pit (Abyss or Tartarus) where fallen angels were kept. They were separate from the souls of humanity. This spiritual realm is outside of time. And so Jesus sacrifice was already, from God's foreknowledge, imputed to them. Jesus died and went down to Paradise (as he promised the thief next to him) to take those who have been waiting to heaven.
     
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  6. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    -----------
     
  7. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    Do you own a New Testament?
    Then you have a copy of the "New Covenant".
    It is already established in and by the Blood Of Jesus who is the author of the New Testament and Himself is the New Covenant.
    We are not waiting for it.... as it has been here for 2000 yrs.
    See the CROSS of CHRIST and the BLOOD Atonement....for an update on the New Covenant.
     
  8. liafailrock

    liafailrock Well-Known Member

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    There have been many interpretations of this parable. And whether or not we all agree, at least in your case you are taking the context of the scripture and time, as opposed to a preconceived idea and then finding "verses that fit". Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand. He was not telling parables to sound like a cute story-teller. By extrapolation, this would filter out the "little flock" who would understand v.s. those who maybe gathered around Jesus to get some sort of feeding miracle because they were physically hungry. Now, that said, just because a Christian may not understand a parable, don't worry. Jesus even had to explain some of them to the disciples.

    I would not use this parable to justify "burning in torment in everlasting hell". Indeed, even the parable itself, even if it was for end time judgement, does not say how long he was in torment. A fire is not effective unless it destroys and purifies, thus annihilating all evil.
     
  9. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Although no one on Abraham's side of the chasm is permitted to cross over
    to the other side, they can at least communicate visually and audibly. I hope
    that's still the case because I would hate to think that I won't be able to
    catch up with my lost loved ones and my BFFs before they're permanently
    vanquished to the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.
    _
     
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  10. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I agree with @Ronald David Bruno in post #5.

    Since Abraham is mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, if it was not a true story, does that make Jesus a liar when referring to a real person, the father of the nation of Israel?

    Since His ascension, He brought the captivity captive aka Paradise to Heaven above where Paul testified indirectly about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

    It was at Pentecost that His disciples were officially saved since Jesus did tell Nicodemus that the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension John 3:13 ) which was after His crucifixion ( John 3:14 ) for whenever anyone believes in Him will be saved ( John 3:15-16 ).

    So for the O.T. saints before His death;

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    But Jesus did preach to those in prison aka Paradise aka Abraham's bosom for how & why He was able to bring them to God in Heaven along with Paradise to await for their resurrection at the rapture event.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ......

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    FYI May God cause the increase.
     
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  11. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I agree with @Ronald David Bruno in post #5.

    Since Abraham is mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, if it was not a true story, does that make Jesus a liar when referring to a real person, the father of the nation of Israel?

    Since His ascension, He brought the captivity captive aka Paradise to Heaven above where Paul testified indirectly about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

    It was at Pentecost that His disciples were officially saved since Jesus did tell Nicodemus that the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension John 3:13 ) which was after His crucifixion ( John 3:14 ) for whenever anyone believes in Him will be saved ( John 3:15-16 ).

    So for the O.T. saints before His death;

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    But Jesus did preach to those in prison aka Paradise aka Abraham's bosom for how & why He was able to bring them to God in Heaven along with Paradise to await for their resurrection at the rapture event.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ......

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    FYI May God cause the increase.

    Actually, those scripture are being misread and therefore applied wrong since those other scripture above testify otherwise.

    The scripture reference you are referring to is in regards to the living's concerns in how the dead has no more share of them under the sun. The cares of the living, the dead will no longer have any thought to that regard in gaining work, wisdom, or knowledge there in the land of the living. That is all that is meant by that reference; not that the dead have no thoughts or feelings when other scripture testify that they do.

    Jews were and are His people for when they believe in Him to be saved. The rejection of the chief cornerstone is why the gospel went to the Gentiles, even though it still went to the Jews, but primarily rejected by the nation of Israel. After the rapture event, the times of the Gentiles will come to an end where the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation.
     
  12. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Interesting! Abraham communicated with this man, but he, IMHO, is probably one of the elders in God's Kingdom who was allowed to do this and probably only for this one time, for our benefit. I can't imagine billions of souls crying out _ in torment _ with non-stop requests and pleas for mercy to those in Paradise or Heaven. That would depress all those who were in Paradise. Especially when their state is fixed, they have already been judged and there is no point for dialogue between us and them. Notice Lazarus was with Abraham, but did not respond. My opinion is that when we get to heaven, we may realize that some whom we knew did not make it and we will be upset, cry. Those are going to be the tears that Jesus wipes away. We will not be in Heaven with any sadness. Can you imagine being in an eternal beautiful existence with the knowledge of the damned in Hades? What will God do about that knowledge? Wipe it away. We will live in heaven without those memories. You have to think that some memories are of evil and no evil is allowed in heaven!
     
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  13. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    There's a distinct possibility that the rich man and Abraham are related
    because he addressed the man as "son".

    I have two grandsons. I'm not sure how well I will cope should either of
    them end up in the wrong place.
    _
     
  14. Pierac

    Pierac Active Member

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    Really... Stop right there! THIS IS NOT A PARABLE, IT IS A TRUE STORY, TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY! ... Jesus was warning us of this place of torment. He used specifically a real person's experience to tell us that this place is for real! LOL

    So, all I have to do is be poor and I'm headed straight to Heaven, but if I'm Rich... headed straight toward Hell... LOL


    Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and multitudes in parables: "And He begins to speak to them in parables." Mar 12:1 And He began to speak to them in parables:

    Mat 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

    Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

    Jesus spoke in parables so that his listeners would not understand Him:

    Not even the apostles understood these parables…

    Mat 15:15 Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."

    The fact that Jesus spoke to the masses in parables only, ought to be sufficient Scriptural evidence to anyone that Lazarus and the Rich man is indeed a parable.

    Parables are not to be taken literally. They are to be understood "figuratively." The real meaning is not in what they literally say, but in what the symbols and figurative language represent. That’s why they are called "parables." This is axiomatic!

    Let us turn to some parables for proof of this point:

    The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:32)
    “for this brother of yours was dead”

    He wasn’t literally "dead." He came home again "alive." God did not resurrect him from the dead. So the prodigal was NOT literally dead, but from the perspective of his father, he was as good as dead or he could have been considered Spiritually dead.

    If this parable is taken literally, we will find more than a few hundred major problems with the rest of God’s revealed Word.
    One will have to use a black marker or cut from the Bible most verses dealing with spirit, soul, body, death, resurrection, immortality, grave, hades, sheol, sin, punishment, chastisement, firstfruits, rewards, justification, reconciliation, prophecy, grace, salvation and the sovereignty of God, just to name a few! All of these contradict the idea that this parable can be literal. All of them.

    "Now the poor man came to die and he is carried away by messengers into Abraham’s bosom."

    Impossible. This statement if taken literally is neither historical nor Scriptural. Many say this represents Lazarus in Heaven. How, could Lazarus be in Heaven while his Lord was still on the earth?

    1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

    Abraham wasn’t the "firstfruit." Lazarus wasn’t the "firstfruit." Jesus the Christ is the firstfruit of them that slept! The latter fruit, Paul tells us, "are [still] reposing."

    Jesus plainly said, not only had David not ascended into the heavens, but that "NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."(John 3:13).

    Teaching that this parable is a literal historical fact makes Christ out to be a liar. When our Lord was alive on this earth giving us this parable, He said: "...No Man has asended up to heaven..." So how can it be said that at the same time our Lord was telling us that no man has ascended up to heaven, that Lazarus and Abraham are already up in heaven? This is infallible proof that when Jesus gave this parable there was no man named lazarus living in heaven with Abraham or anyone else! So here then is just one of the hundreds of problems with the Scriptures if you insist this parable is literal.

    Study harder!!!
    Paul
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    And no surprise that this hasn't gotten a response yet.

    Take heart. He doesn't reply to my arguments very much either.
     
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  16. Ronald David Bruno

    Ronald David Bruno Well-Known Member

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    Jesus DID NOT ONLY SPEAK IN PARABLES! WHAT BIBLE DO READ. It is estimated that 35% of His teachings were in parables. I guess you missed the rest ... need to study up some more!
    He did speak in parables and usually explained what the parable meant. The story of the Rich man in Hades in Luke 16 was not a parable. Examine His parables. They don't include fictional abstract realms or specific names of people we know, like Abraham. Jesus teaches many things about the Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, judgment, etc., and it is not symbolic language, it is to be taken literally.

    Jesus teaching about Hell (Hades and Lake of Fire)

    Matthew 5:29-30 Message to sinners to avoid Hell

    Matthew 8:12 The heirs of the kingdom, (who in this context He was speaking of the unbelieving Jews), will be thrown into the outer darkness.

    Matthew 22:13 Parable of Wedding Banquet

    Matthew 23:15, 33 The Pharisees sentenced to Hell

    Matthew 25:26-30 Summation of message to the wicked servant in the Parable of Talents

    Matthews 25:46 Eternal life vs. Age-lasting destruction

    Matthew 13: 37-43 Explanation of the Parable or the Weeds of the Field

    Matthew 13:49-50 Summation of the End of the Ages

    Matthew 24:51 Second Coming of Christ in Judgment

    Luke 10:15 Judgment against Capernaum

    Luke 13:28 The wicked will only see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in heaven. This actually supports the story of the Rich Man in Hades who saw Abraham!

    Luke 16:23 The Rich man in Hades

    Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation for those in Christ. A strong implication for those who aren’t!

    Note also that when Jesus taught in Parables, His explanation at the end of the Parable was meant to be taken literally.
     
  17. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Abraham, being the father of Israel, would wind up calling any distant relative as son.
     
  18. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    At the time Jesus gave that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, Paradise or Abraham's bosom was located beneath the earth.

    It was after His ascension in leading the captivity captive to Heaven is why Paradise is now located in heaven as He did bring them to God

    1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Paul was testifying indirectly about the apostle John and that Book of Revelation.


    Now in regards to parables, Jesus never referenced a real life person in any of his parables for why you should reconsider the rich man & the beggar named Lazarus, as a true story.
     
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  19. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I agree.

    Well, technically, the O.T. saints were not saved yet, but were in Abraham's bosom aka Paradise awaiting for Christ to bring them to God in Heaven.

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    At the time Jesus gave that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, Paradise or Abraham's bosom was located beneath the earth.

    It was after His ascension in leading the captivity captive to Heaven is why Paradise is now located in heaven as He did bring them to God

    1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Paul was testifying indirectly about the apostle John and that Book of Revelation.


    I agree. Jesus had never used a real life person by name in any of His parables for why believers should reconsider that story as a true account.
     
  20. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Well now that's interesting... only it would pin John's reception of the book to the early A.D. 50s...

    It would explain Paul's language a little better, though...

    I liked the rest of your post, btw. This is just what I'd call thought-provoking.
     
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