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Hidden In Him

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At the time Jesus gave that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, Paradise or Abraham's bosom was located beneath the earth.


Btw, Christ4Me. Pierac is a Jehovahs Witness. So are Robert Gwin, Barney Bright, Aunty Jane, and a few others I think. We also have some Unitarians and SDA members here as well, so the orthodox teaching on the harrowing of Hades will be met with all sorts of opposition here. Just giving you a heads up.

God bless,
- H
 
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Christ4Me

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Well now that's interesting... only it would pin John's reception of the book to the early A.D. 50s...

It would explain Paul's language a little better, though...

Biblical scholars can only guess as to when the books of the N.T. were actually written, but Paul pretty much exposed that John had written the Book of Revelation before Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.

I liked the rest of your post, btw. This is just what I'd call thought-provoking.

I give the Lord the credit for that as He helped me to discern a thought provoking verse about how God will destroy body & soul in "hell" which was derived from Gehenna meaning a place on earth, as soul ( psuche ) is not the same thing as spirit ( pneuma ) in the Greek. Since the firstfruits of the resurrection live forever like the angels ad cannot marry, then His destroying those saints left behind soul and body is removing that vitality of their first inheritance to being a glorified terrestrial body when they are resurrected after the great tribulation when the power of the second death will not hold over them. Which is odd as if implying the power of the first death, physical death, still does. It may be why they and the generations following them would have to eat from the tree of life in that City of God on earth in New Jerusalem. That is thought provoking to me, thanks to the Lord.
 

Hidden In Him

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I give the Lord the credit for that as He helped me to discern a thought provoking verse about how God will destroy body & soul in "hell" which was derived from Gehenna meaning a place on earth, as soul ( psuche ) is not the same thing as spirit ( pneuma ) in the Greek. Since the firstfruits of the resurrection live forever like the angels ad cannot marry, then His destroying those saints left behind soul and body is removing that vitality of their first inheritance to being a glorified terrestrial body when they are resurrected after the great tribulation when the power of the second death will not hold over them. Which is odd as if implying the power of the first death, physical death, still does. It may be why they and the generations following them would have to eat from the tree of life in that City of God on earth in New Jerusalem. That is thought provoking to me, thanks to the Lord.

That we disagree on, but thanks for sharing just the same.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.
Well DUH!!! Why would ANYBODY apply "the rich man in hell" to a Born again Christian. in 2022 the UNSAVED "Rich man" STILL goes to hell.

Lazarus, on the other hand wasn't in "Heaven" either - yet, he was in "Abraham's Bosom" as an OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVER - waiting for the Promise of God to come - i.e. "the Gospel"
 

quietthinker

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Luke 16

Notice this...

The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

So, here is how to rightly divide The Word in cases like this..so that you are not overlapping the Old Covenant, on Top of the New Covenant, which of course, is how heretics believe and are created, actually.
This is the result of "wrongly dividing" the word of God.

Always remember, ...When Jesus was alive, before He Died, He was only dealing with the House of Israel., and He was "under the law".
See that?
So, when He is teaching, He is talking to JEWS who are under the law of Moses, and that is the OLD Covenant....and that would include the verse about the 'rich man in hell".

After Jesus died on the Cross, the NEW Covenant and the NEW TESTAMENT began, and the "time of the Gentiles" began, and the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD came into effect as Paul showed up, and taught us that the "blood of Jesus" is a "one time eternal sacrifice", and we who have been born again, are not that Old Testament "rich man", who is under the law... But rather we the born again, (not just water baptized) are not under the law, we are "under GRACE", and this Grace, is the blood atonement that is "Jesus became Sin" and we who are born again are become "the Righteousness of GOD", 'In Christ"....
See that? That is the NEW Covenant, and the "rich man in hell" was not born again and is under the LAW, = the OLD Covenant.

Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.
You speak about 'rightly dividing the word' yet you have totally missed the point. Jesus was not giving a theology lesson on covenants; he was telling a story the point of which is summed up at the end of the story......it being, 'if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one was raised from the dead'
 

Webers_Home

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In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried
by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't
specified.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie
occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone
marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie
phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering
awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.

I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but
if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for
him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures
surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one
unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering
around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life
without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him
down.

Jude 1:9 relates a quarrel between the Devil and an archangel over the
disposition of Moses' remains. No one really knows what that was all about
but I'm suspecting that the Devil wanted to ensure Moses got a pagan
funeral, and likely felt he deserved it seeing as how Moses was a murderer,
and had messed up big time during that incident at the watering rock. So, I
wonder if the angels that provided Lazarus transportation were not also
assigned as security to protect him from being shanghaied by something
similar to those mists depicted in "GHOST".
_
 
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Robert Gwin

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Hello @Robert Gwin, @Behold,

The story of 'The Rich Man and Lazarus', was told to bring to light the hypocrisy of Pharisaic doctrine, and has nothing to do with the covenants, and it is not a parable, for the parables revealed the mysteries of the Kingdom (Luke 8:10) to those with ears to hear.

The Pharisees believed it was possible for the dead to communicate with the living among other things. We know that the testimony of Scripture is that the dead know nothing, and that there is no consciousness in death. This story highlights their hypocrisy.

The Old Covenant was made with Israel as a nation, and the New Covenant will be made with them too. It is in abeyance at the moment because Israel is in a lo-ammi condition in which God declared them 'not My People'. When Israel is once again, 'My People' in God's eyes, then the New Covenant will be made with them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Many have told me that is not a parable, yet realize that Jesus had not died yet. In fact it was Jesus who related it, correct. No one went to heaven prior to Jesus' death, as the ransom was not paid. You are correct about it being directed toward the Pharisees, the leaders of God's people under the Law covenant of the day. They were actually a sect that had set themselves up in that position, but the Jews basically looked to them as their spiritual leaders.
 

charity

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Do you own a New Testament?
Then you have a copy of the "New Covenant".
It is already established in and by the Blood Of Jesus who is the author of the New Testament and Himself is the New Covenant.
We are not waiting for it.... as it has been here for 2000 yrs.
See the CROSS of CHRIST and the BLOOD Atonement....for an update on the New Covenant.
Hello @Behold,

'For if that first covenant had been faultless,
then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them, He saith,
"Behold, the days come," saith the Lord,

"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
because they continued not in My covenant,
and I regarded them not," saith the Lord.
"For this is the covenant that I will make
with the house of Israel after those days", saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people: ... '

(Heb 8:7-10)

The New Covenant is in abeyance at this present interval of time, for Israel (as a nation) is at present, 'not My People', being in a state of unbelief, having rejected their Messiah and King.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Christ4Me

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Many have told me that is not a parable, yet realize that Jesus had not died yet. In fact it was Jesus who related it, correct. No one went to heaven prior to Jesus' death, as the ransom was not paid. You are correct about it being directed toward the Pharisees, the leaders of God's people under the Law covenant of the day. They were actually a sect that had set themselves up in that position, but the Jews basically looked to them as their spiritual leaders.

Regardless of addressing the Pharisees ...

since Abraham is mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, if it was not a true story, does that make Jesus a liar when referring to a real person, the father of the nation of Israel?

Since His ascension, He brought the captivity captive aka Paradise to Heaven above where Paul testified indirectly about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

It was at Pentecost that His disciples were officially saved since Jesus did tell Nicodemus that the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension John 3:13 ) which was after His crucifixion ( John 3:14 ) for whenever anyone believes in Him will be saved ( John 3:15-16 ).

So for the O.T. saints before His death;

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

But Jesus did preach to those in prison aka Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, and that included the thief on the cross that day, for how & why He was able to bring them to God in Heaven along with Paradise to await for their first fruits of the resurrection at the rapture event.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ......

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said to him: Son, remember that during your
lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now
he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.

If true that it isn't necessary to be poor to be saved, nor necessary to be rich
to be lost, then why compare the two men's station in life?

Well; I can't prove this but strongly suspect that the rich man was a miser
and indifferent to deprived folks.

The rich man left Lazarus to foraging garbage when he could've easily
funded a decent soup kitchen for folks in his predicament. The rich man
could've sponsored a free clinic too instead of leaving Lazarus' medical
attention to the dogs thereabouts.

The rich man dressed himself in splendid clothing. Lazarus' clothing was
likely badly soiled from his sores and he no doubt would've benefitted
greatly from the rich man's discards. And had the rich man taken the
initiative to set up drop boxes around the neighborhood, others would likely
have been drawn to contribute.

You know, Lazarus wasn't living under a bridge nor sheltering in a cardboard
box way across town. He was right there at the rich man's gate where
Mr.Pampered had to go past Lazarus every day on his way out so it wouldn't
have inconvenienced the rich man the slightest to help alleviate the poor
wretch's predicament.
_
 

quietthinker

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Many have told me that is not a parable, yet realize that Jesus had not died yet. In fact it was Jesus who related it, correct. No one went to heaven prior to Jesus' death, as the ransom was not paid. You are correct about it being directed toward the Pharisees, the leaders of God's people under the Law covenant of the day. They were actually a sect that had set themselves up in that position, but the Jews basically looked to them as their spiritual leaders.
hmmmm, no one in heaven? Moses? Elijah? Enoch?
 

Webers_Home

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I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else.
Well; judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality
types with whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is
found in folks who lack the milk of human kindness.

When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the
afterlife not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.

Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for
"merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an
adjective). And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to
pity (as a verb).

So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard hearted,
thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.


NOTE: A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser
fortunate souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who
squanders billions on military toys while the growth of something like 30
to 40 percent of his citizens' children are stunted by malnutrition.

Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There
are hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable
water is another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people
there are actually subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The
meanwhile, Kim has the best of everything; he's doing just fine.

You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty
of death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would.
Well; just you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of
people down there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society
inside that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site
down below for Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all
over him like hungry ants on a grasshopper.
_
 
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Robert Gwin

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You kinda put your comma in the wrong place sir, neither Jesus not the thief were in paradise that day. In fact the first resurrection was nearly 2 millenniums away from occurring.

Most faiths recognize the rich man and Lazarus to be a parable, and common sense as well. Look at it and research it, Abraham is actually Jehovah, correct? The rich man is decked in purple and linen, who did this represent? What does this parable really mean?

The context and the wording of the story show clearly that it is a parable and not an actual historical account. Poverty is not being extolled, nor are riches being condemned. Rather, conduct, final rewards, and a reversal in the spiritual status, or condition, of those represented by Lazarus and by the rich man are evidently indicated. The fact that the rich man’s brothers rejected Moses and the prophets also shows that the illustration had a deeper meaning and purpose than that of contrasting poverty and the possession of riches

Here is our understanding of it sir:
*** jy chap. 88 p. 206 par. 7-p. 209 par. 3 A Change for the Rich Man and for Lazarus ***
The parable features two men—each of whose status, or situation, changes dramatically. In considering the illustration, bear in mind that among those hearing it are money-loving Pharisees who are being exalted by men.
“There was a rich man,” Jesus says, “who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. But a beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.”—Luke 16:19-21.
The Pharisees are money lovers, so is there any doubt whom Jesus is illustrating by this “rich man”? These Jewish religious leaders also like to deck themselves out in costly, fancy clothing. And beyond whatever actual wealth they might have, they seem rich in the privileges they enjoy and opportunities they have. Yes, illustrating them by a man clothed in royal purple reflects their favored position, and the white linen reflects their self-righteousness.—Daniel 5:7.
How do these rich, proud leaders view the poor, the common people? They contemptuously consider them ‛am ha·’aʹrets, or people of the land (earth), who neither know the Law nor deserve to be taught it. (John 7:49) That reflects the situation of the “beggar named Lazarus,” who hungers for even the meager “things dropping from the table of the rich man.” Like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down on, as if they are spiritually diseased.
That sad situation has existed for some time, but Jesus knows that the time has come for a great change in the condition of both those who are like the rich man and those who are like Lazarus.
THE CHANGE FOR THE RICH MAN AND FOR LAZARUS
Jesus goes on to describe this dramatic change in circumstances. “Now in the course of time,” he says, “the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in the Grave he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus by his side.”—Luke 16:22, 23.
Those listening to Jesus know that Abraham is long dead and in the Grave. The Scriptures make it clear that no one in the Grave, or Sheol, can see or speak, including Abraham. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) What, then, do these religious leaders think that Jesus means with this illustration? What might he be indicating about the common people and the money-loving religious leaders?
Jesus has just pointed to a change by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist, but from then on the Kingdom of God is being declared as good news.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both Lazarus and the rich man die to their former circumstances, or condition, and they experience new positions relative to God.
Specifically, those of the humble or poor class have long been spiritually deprived. But they are being helped by and are responding to the message about the Kingdom presented first by John the Baptist and then by Jesus. Formerly, they had to get by with what amounted to little ‘things dropped from the spiritual table’ of the religious leaders. Now they are being fed with essential Scriptural truths, particularly the wonderful things Jesus is explaining. It is as if they finally are in the favored position in the eyes of Jehovah God.
In contrast, those in the rich and influential class of religious leaders refuse to accept the Kingdom message that John proclaimed and that Jesus has been preaching throughout the land. (Matthew 3:1, 2; 4:17) In fact, they are angered, or tormented, by that message, which points to a coming fiery judgment from God. (Matthew 3:7-12) It would be a relief to the money-loving religious leaders if Jesus and his disciples would let up on declaring God’s message. Those leaders are like the rich man in the illustration, who says: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.”—Luke 16:24.
But that is not to happen. Most of the religious leaders will not change. They had refused to “listen to Moses and the Prophets,” which writings should have led them to accept Jesus as God’s Messiah and King. (Luke 16:29, 31; Galatians 3:24) Nor do they humble themselves and let themselves be persuaded by those poor ones who accept Jesus and now have divine favor. Jesus’ disciples, for their part, cannot compromise or water down the truth just to satisfy the religious leaders or give them relief. In his illustration, Jesus describes this reality in the words uttered by “Father Abraham” to the rich man:
“Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.”—Luke 16:25, 26.
How just and fitting it is that such a dramatic change takes place! It amounts to a reversal of position between the proud religious leaders and the humble ones who accept Jesus’ yoke and are finally being refreshed and fed spiritually. (Matthew 11:28-30) This change will be even more evident in a few months when the Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. (Jeremiah 31:31-33; Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 8:7-13) When God pours out holy spirit on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E., it will be unmistakably clear that, rather than the Pharisees and their religious allies, Jesus’ disciples have God’s favor.
 

Robert Gwin

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hmmmm, no one in heaven? Moses? Elijah? Enoch?

Yes sir that is quite correct. All who died prior to Jesus were not able to be anointed with holy spirit, which first occurred on Pentecost of the year 33. Only those anointed by holy spirit are redeemed from this earth Rev 14:3. That is why Jesus was upset greatly with the death of John the baptist, whom he said was the greatest man who was born of woman, but unfortunately not reside in heaven. Mat 11:11
 

Christ4Me

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You kinda put your comma in the wrong place sir, neither Jesus not the thief were in paradise that day. In fact the first resurrection was nearly 2 millenniums away from occurring.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Still reading it the same because of "Today".
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he
lifted up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and
said: Father Abraham!

The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old
Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead,
yet here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only
another dead guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were
they doing that? Do the dead have access to some sort of world-wide
cemetery network complete with services like Face Time and Zoom?
_
 

Robert Gwin

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Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Still reading it the same because of "Today".

You are aware that Jesus was not in paradise that day, correct? Your version mistranslated it.
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:

"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)

It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e.
their corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how
did Abraham and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation
with each other in the afterlife?

Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain
compelled by reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of
a supernatural reality instead of an impossible fantasy.

Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is
memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells
they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich.
man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.
Apparently God has some sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has
yet to discover.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not
only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and
I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that
makes their situation only worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out;
that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue
what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss"
would certainly hold true. For example: many of the people born and raised
in Kim Jong-Un's North Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better
off than they are because they just simply don't know any better
_
 
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Webers_Home

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Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets;
let them listen to them.

Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old
Testament; which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is
able to make folks wise unto salvation.

However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells
me that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken
place: which leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that
took place prior to both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
_