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The Rich man in Hell

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Behold, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Btw, Christ4Me. Pierac is a Jehovahs Witness. So are Robert Gwin, Barney Bright, Aunty Jane, and a few others I think. We also have some Unitarians and SDA members here as well, so the orthodox teaching on the harrowing of Hades will be met with all sorts of opposition here. Just giving you a heads up.

    God bless,
    - H
     
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  2. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Biblical scholars can only guess as to when the books of the N.T. were actually written, but Paul pretty much exposed that John had written the Book of Revelation before Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.

    I give the Lord the credit for that as He helped me to discern a thought provoking verse about how God will destroy body & soul in "hell" which was derived from Gehenna meaning a place on earth, as soul ( psuche ) is not the same thing as spirit ( pneuma ) in the Greek. Since the firstfruits of the resurrection live forever like the angels ad cannot marry, then His destroying those saints left behind soul and body is removing that vitality of their first inheritance to being a glorified terrestrial body when they are resurrected after the great tribulation when the power of the second death will not hold over them. Which is odd as if implying the power of the first death, physical death, still does. It may be why they and the generations following them would have to eat from the tree of life in that City of God on earth in New Jerusalem. That is thought provoking to me, thanks to the Lord.
     
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    That we disagree on, but thanks for sharing just the same.
     
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  4. Bob Carabbio

    Bob Carabbio Active Member

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    Well DUH!!! Why would ANYBODY apply "the rich man in hell" to a Born again Christian. in 2022 the UNSAVED "Rich man" STILL goes to hell.

    Lazarus, on the other hand wasn't in "Heaven" either - yet, he was in "Abraham's Bosom" as an OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVER - waiting for the Promise of God to come - i.e. "the Gospel"
     
  5. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    You speak about 'rightly dividing the word' yet you have totally missed the point. Jesus was not giving a theology lesson on covenants; he was telling a story the point of which is summed up at the end of the story......it being, 'if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one was raised from the dead'
     
  6. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    I can always hope the Lord will cause the increase on the down the road.
     
  7. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried
    by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't
    specified.

    One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie
    occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone
    marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie
    phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering
    awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.

    I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but
    if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for
    him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures
    surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one
    unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering
    around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life
    without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him
    down.

    Jude 1:9 relates a quarrel between the Devil and an archangel over the
    disposition of Moses' remains. No one really knows what that was all about
    but I'm suspecting that the Devil wanted to ensure Moses got a pagan
    funeral, and likely felt he deserved it seeing as how Moses was a murderer,
    and had messed up big time during that incident at the watering rock. So, I
    wonder if the angels that provided Lazarus transportation were not also
    assigned as security to protect him from being shanghaied by something
    similar to those mists depicted in "GHOST".
    _
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 11:31 AM
  8. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Many have told me that is not a parable, yet realize that Jesus had not died yet. In fact it was Jesus who related it, correct. No one went to heaven prior to Jesus' death, as the ransom was not paid. You are correct about it being directed toward the Pharisees, the leaders of God's people under the Law covenant of the day. They were actually a sect that had set themselves up in that position, but the Jews basically looked to them as their spiritual leaders.
     
  9. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Behold,

    'For if that first covenant had been faultless,
    then should no place have been sought for the second.
    For finding fault with them, He saith,
    "Behold, the days come," saith the Lord,

    "when I will make a new covenant
    with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
    in the day when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
    because they continued not in My covenant,
    and I regarded them not," saith the Lord.
    "For this is the covenant that I will make
    with the house of Israel after those days", saith the Lord;
    I will put my laws into their mind,
    and write them in their hearts:
    and I will be to them a God,
    and they shall be to me a people: ... '

    (Heb 8:7-10)

    The New Covenant is in abeyance at this present interval of time, for Israel (as a nation) is at present, 'not My People', being in a state of unbelief, having rejected their Messiah and King.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  10. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Regardless of addressing the Pharisees ...

    since Abraham is mentioned in Luke 16:19-31, if it was not a true story, does that make Jesus a liar when referring to a real person, the father of the nation of Israel?

    Since His ascension, He brought the captivity captive aka Paradise to Heaven above where Paul testified indirectly about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

    It was at Pentecost that His disciples were officially saved since Jesus did tell Nicodemus that the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension John 3:13 ) which was after His crucifixion ( John 3:14 ) for whenever anyone believes in Him will be saved ( John 3:15-16 ).

    So for the O.T. saints before His death;

    Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

    But Jesus did preach to those in prison aka Paradise aka Abraham's bosom, and that included the thief on the cross that day, for how & why He was able to bring them to God in Heaven along with Paradise to await for their first fruits of the resurrection at the rapture event.

    Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, ......

    Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
     
  11. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said to him: Son, remember that during your
    lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now
    he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.

    If true that it isn't necessary to be poor to be saved, nor necessary to be rich
    to be lost, then why compare the two men's station in life?

    Well; I can't prove this but strongly suspect that the rich man was a miser
    and indifferent to deprived folks.

    The rich man left Lazarus to foraging garbage when he could've easily
    funded a decent soup kitchen for folks in his predicament. The rich man
    could've sponsored a free clinic too instead of leaving Lazarus' medical
    attention to the dogs thereabouts.

    The rich man dressed himself in splendid clothing. Lazarus' clothing was
    likely badly soiled from his sores and he no doubt would've benefitted
    greatly from the rich man's discards. And had the rich man taken the
    initiative to set up drop boxes around the neighborhood, others would likely
    have been drawn to contribute.

    You know, Lazarus wasn't living under a bridge nor sheltering in a cardboard
    box way across town. He was right there at the rich man's gate where
    Mr.Pampered had to go past Lazarus every day on his way out so it wouldn't
    have inconvenienced the rich man the slightest to help alleviate the poor
    wretch's predicament.
    _
     
  12. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    hmmmm, no one in heaven? Moses? Elijah? Enoch?
     
  13. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    I believe God has a right to pick his friends just the same as anybody else.
    Well; judging from several of Jesus' lectures, there are certain personality
    types with whom God does not care to associate, and one of those types is
    found in folks who lack the milk of human kindness.

    When we get right down to it, the rich man went to the wrong side of the
    afterlife not especially for anything he did, rather, because he's callous.

    Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

    Christ wasn't talking about forgiveness in that beatitude. The word for
    "merciful" is eleemon (el-eh-ay'-mone) which means: compassionate (as an
    adjective). And the word for "mercy" is eleeo (el-eh-eh'-o) which means: to
    pity (as a verb).

    So then, what Christ says is: if somebody is by nature cruel, hard hearted,
    thoughtless, and insensitive; then they will get no sympathy from God.


    NOTE: A contemporary example of the rich man's attitude towards lesser
    fortunate souls than himself is North Korea's Kim Jong-Un: a dictator who
    squanders billions on military toys while the growth of something like 30
    to 40 percent of his citizens' children are stunted by malnutrition.

    Adequate health care is available only to a relatively privileged few. There
    are hospitals in North Korea without electricity and medications. Potable
    water is another scarcity in North Korea; and fresh meats. Some people
    there are actually subsisting on frogs, mice, dragon flies. and locusts. The
    meanwhile, Kim has the best of everything; he's doing just fine.

    You know, were North Koreans not forced to respect Kim under the penalty
    of death, torture, and/or imprisonment, I seriously doubt anybody would.
    Well; just you wait till Kim arrives in the netherworld. No doubt numbers of
    people down there can hardly wait for a chance to scratch his eyes out.

    I've heard it from ex felons that prison itself is not so bad. It's the society
    inside that makes prison a living hell. Well; I just wish I could be on-site
    down below for Kim's home-coming. I expect people down there will be all
    over him like hungry ants on a grasshopper.
    _
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022 at 10:29 AM
  14. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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  15. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    Yes sir that is quite correct. All who died prior to Jesus were not able to be anointed with holy spirit, which first occurred on Pentecost of the year 33. Only those anointed by holy spirit are redeemed from this earth Rev 14:3. That is why Jesus was upset greatly with the death of John the baptist, whom he said was the greatest man who was born of woman, but unfortunately not reside in heaven. Mat 11:11
     
  16. Christ4Me

    Christ4Me Active Member

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    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Still reading it the same because of "Today".
     
  17. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:22-24 . . The rich man also died and was buried. And in hades he
    lifted up his eyes . . . and saw Abraham far away . . and he cried out and
    said: Father Abraham!

    The New Testament's hades is commonly believed equivalent to the Old
    Testament's sheol, and both are commonly interpreted "the grave".

    Well; my problem with that is people in the grave are supposed to be dead,
    yet here is a guy in hades who was able to communicate with not only
    another dead guy, but with a dead guy over in a different grave. How were
    they doing that? Do the dead have access to some sort of world-wide
    cemetery network complete with services like Face Time and Zoom?
    _
     
  18. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    You are aware that Jesus was not in paradise that day, correct? Your version mistranslated it.
     
  19. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .

    Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:

    "As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)

    It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e.
    their corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how
    did Abraham and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation
    with each other in the afterlife?

    Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
    communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain
    compelled by reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of
    a supernatural reality instead of an impossible fantasy.

    Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is
    memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells
    they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich.
    man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.
    Apparently God has some sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has
    yet to discover.

    The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
    memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not
    only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and
    I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that
    makes their situation only worse in the heat.

    If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out;
    that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue
    what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss"
    would certainly hold true. For example: many of the people born and raised
    in Kim Jong-Un's North Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better
    off than they are because they just simply don't know any better
    _
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 11:16 AM
  20. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
    I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
    this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets;
    let them listen to them.

    Abraham recommended that the man's five brethren consult the Old
    Testament; which isn't necessarily futile because 2Tim 3:15 says the OT is
    able to make folks wise unto salvation.

    However, the fact that Abraham did not recommend the New Testament tells
    me that it either hadn't been written yet, or its events had not yet taken
    place: which leads me to believe the story describes an afterlife event that
    took place prior to both Jesus' crucifixion and his resurrection.
    _
     
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