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quietthinker

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A vision is not reality, it is a way in which God communicates or instructs us. In the transfiguration, the message was intended for Peter, James, and John. Let’s take a look at some other visions. Genesis 15:1 says:

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abraham in a vision."

"Daniel had a dream as he lay in bed, and was terrified by the visions of his mind" (Daniel 7:1).

Daniel then goes on to describe his vision which includes four beasts, one that looks like a lion with eagle wings etc. This is an excellent example of a vision. God is revealing a message to Daniel, the details are not necessarily reality, it is the message that is important. The message in this case is about the end times. God many times uses symbols to get his point across. But there are not going to be four actual beasts that look like a lion with eagle wings etc.

The purpose of the vision of the transfiguration was to confirm to Peter, James, and John that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. The New American Bible states on this verse:

"Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Mount Sinai. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory."

It was a vision. It would be irresponsible to use this episode for any other purpose than what it was intended for.

Man made tradition has done everything possible to confuse God’s word, but it is very easy to see past the lies if one just takes the time to look. Once you understand these important points, a lot of the Bible starts to make sense, because it stops contradicting itself. You are no longer trying to force Greek thought into Hebrew writings. Think about it, if you believe that you go to heaven after you die, how would you explain all the verses in this paper without making a shamble out of the Bible?

Now, about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth.


This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab’s vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:

"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus’ statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven." Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man’s interpretation of this verse is wrong?

About Enoch?
The problem with Enoch is two-fold. The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states:
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since in this chapter it reads of everyone else, "then he died" and of Enoch it does not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," They conclude that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.

It says in verse 23:

"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

To me that implies that Enoch’s whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:

"Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."

"Walked with God," means that the person follows God’s will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:

laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:

"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person’s death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person’s death.

So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."

The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."

The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:

"All these died in faith."

So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.

In John 8:51 Jesus says:
"I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.

For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.

Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."

If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 95% in favor that Enoch died, and 5% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.

If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong when he said. "No one has gone up to heaven."

Paul
When you look at your wife? you do it with your eyes....its called a vision.....its not called a hearing or a feeling.
The word 'vision' is interchangeable according to context....and I think you know that.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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If referring to the rich man being nameless, he served as a warning for all the rich & those that ignore the poor when it is in their power to help them.

The ones that are named are the ones that only matter as their names are now in the Book of Life since His ascension.
That is a good point.
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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The problem with the rich man is that he love this world. so such a one craves this world and accepts the darkness more than the Light, thus he will never become truly born again ! so he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. so then he will never get to Heaven then. because such a one is abiding in this world and Jesus said that the is not of this world, remember !

So how is one going to Heaven if you are of this world. one is not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact !

Now if one is to be the Body of Christ Jesus and Jesus is the Head of that body, he would know you, because you are part of him, but if one is not of his then who are they ? well Jesus points it out that he never knew them !
But they will say ? remember ! but No ! they were of their religion and not of God at all.

Remember the bastards who tried to kill Holy Moses, they had religion.
 

Christ4Me

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The problem with the rich man is that he love this world. so such a one craves this world and accepts the darkness more than the Light, thus he will never become truly born again ! so he can not enter into the Kingdom of God. so then he will never get to Heaven then. because such a one is abiding in this world and Jesus said that the is not of this world, remember !

So how is one going to Heaven if you are of this world. one is not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact !

Now if one is to be the Body of Christ Jesus and Jesus is the Head of that body, he would know you, because you are part of him, but if one is not of his then who are they ? well Jesus points it out that he never knew them !
But they will say ? remember ! but No ! they were of their religion and not of God at all.

Remember the bastards who tried to kill Holy Moses, they had religion.

Just to be clear, a rich man that loves money more than God is of the world for how he will do evil to get that money & keep that money.

But there is such a thing as a rich Christian, but whose heart is on God in loving Him more than money not to do evil for it because His heart is on the treasures above, and even Christians are exhorted to lean on Jesus for help to keep their hearts on Him & the world above as any Christian can treasure something on this earth that they may very well be tempted to not depart with, like Lot's wife, when the Bridegroom comes.

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

If the rich are not content with the riches they have, then they never will as the love of money will tempt them to do evil to get more.

Here is proof that there is such a thing as rich Christians for how they will be content and be willing to distribute and still maintain that rich status.

1 Timothy 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

So the idea that the rich has to give up everything is hardly being followed when those believing that are not really giving up everything either. believers, even the poor, if they treasure anything on earth that they are not willing to give up for when the Bridegroom comes as in leaving it behind, and not meaning to give it up while living for Him down here, may find themselves like Lot's wife in not wanting to leave it nor this life.

Luke 14:15-35 are both sayings of Jesus referring to the cost of discipleship is to be ready to leave our loved ones and every thing behind when He comes as the Bridegroom to take us to the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

We all need His help to not be ensnared by the cares & the "treasures" of this life since it will all pass away. Luke 21:33-36
 

Webers_Home

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.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that couldn't possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable— banquets,
stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets,
women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the
wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, crooked
accountants, virgins and lamps, et al.

Now; if Christ had stepped out of character with a story containing a moon
made of green cheese; we would have good reason to suspect that at least
that particular parable was fantasy; but they're all very consistent; not one
of them is so far removed from normalcy as to have no basis in reality
whatsoever.

Anyway, that's the problem I have with Luke 16:19-31. If it's a parable,
then I pretty much have to assume that it's based upon a plausible, real-life
incident; consistent with all the others.
_
 
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Curtis

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Luke 16

Notice this...

The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

So, here is how to rightly divide The Word in cases like this..so that you are not overlapping the Old Covenant, on Top of the New Covenant, which of course, is how heretics believe and are created, actually.
This is the result of "wrongly dividing" the word of God.

Always remember, ...When Jesus was alive, before He Died, He was only dealing with the House of Israel., and He was "under the law".
See that?
So, when He is teaching, He is talking to JEWS who are under the law of Moses, and that is the OLD Covenant....and that would include the verse about the 'rich man in hell".

After Jesus died on the Cross, the NEW Covenant and the NEW TESTAMENT began, and the "time of the Gentiles" began, and the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD came into effect as Paul showed up, and taught us that the "blood of Jesus" is a "one time eternal sacrifice", and we who have been born again, are not that Old Testament "rich man", who is under the law... But rather we the born again, (not just water baptized) are not under the law, we are "under GRACE", and this Grace, is the blood atonement that is "Jesus became Sin" and we who are born again are become "the Righteousness of GOD", 'In Christ"....
See that? That is the NEW Covenant, and the "rich man in hell" was not born again and is under the LAW, = the OLD Covenant.

Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.

Except hell didn’t stop existing in the new covenant.

But Jesus emptied out the compartment in the earth known as Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, when He rose and it’s now in heaven. so that changed in the new covenant.
 

quietthinker

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Except hell didn’t stop existing in the new covenant.

But Jesus emptied out the compartment in the earth known as Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, when He rose and it’s now in heaven. so that changed in the new covenant.
wow, you are off on a trip!
 

Curtis

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then His destroying those saints left behind soul and body is removing that vitality of their first inheritance to being a glorified terrestrial body when they are resurrected after the great tribulation when the power of the second death will not hold over them.

Except Jesus doesn’t destroy any of the saints.

Body and soul are destroyed in hell (the place of the damned), leaving the spirit, which is eternal, but saints don’t go to hell, unless they become reprobate
 

quietthinker

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Except Jesus doesn’t destroy any of the saints.

Body and soul are destroyed in hell (the place of the damned), leaving the spirit, which is eternal, but saints don’t go to hell, unless they become reprobate
What you've swallowed might appear tasty but you have no idea what it is you've swallowed.....and if I told you your dish is a concoction mixed with pagan views you would in my estimation, reject it.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Just to be clear, a rich man that loves money more than God is of the world for how he will do evil to get that money & keep that money.

But there is such a thing as a rich Christian, but whose heart is on God in loving Him more than money not to do evil for it because His heart is on the treasures above, and even Christians are exhorted to lean on Jesus for help to keep their hearts on Him & the world above as any Christian can treasure something on this earth that they may very well be tempted to not depart with, like Lot's wife, when the Bridegroom comes.

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. 9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

If the rich are not content with the riches they have, then they never will as the love of money will tempt them to do evil to get more.

Here is proof that there is such a thing as rich Christians for how they will be content and be willing to distribute and still maintain that rich status.

1 Timothy 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

So the idea that the rich has to give up everything is hardly being followed when those believing that are not really giving up everything either. believers, even the poor, if they treasure anything on earth that they are not willing to give up for when the Bridegroom comes as in leaving it behind, and not meaning to give it up while living for Him down here, may find themselves like Lot's wife in not wanting to leave it nor this life.

Luke 14:15-35 are both sayings of Jesus referring to the cost of discipleship is to be ready to leave our loved ones and every thing behind when He comes as the Bridegroom to take us to the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

We all need His help to not be ensnared by the cares & the "treasures" of this life since it will all pass away. Luke 21:33-36
I do not think that it's only the love of money but the love of this world is the problem.

One could be very wealthy and give much to the poor ? but that is not the point, the point of Christ Jesus is you Soul, this must be fed by Jesus to come into the Kingdom of God. that's the Key !

What is the most important thing in ones life ? Christ Jesus !

Ones True Life starts with Christ Jesus and ends with Christ Jesus !
 
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Christ4Me

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Except Jesus doesn’t destroy any of the saints.

Body and soul are destroyed in hell (the place of the damned), leaving the spirit, which is eternal, but saints don’t go to hell, unless they become reprobate

The place of the damned aka hell in English is derived from the Greek word, "geena" or Gehenna which is the valley of slaughter on earth.

Reprobates are those disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven for being in iniquity still, for why they are being excommunicated to being left behind on earth for when that destruction comes. Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17:26-37 - King James Version
 

Christ4Me

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I do not think that it's only the love of money but the love of this world is the problem.

One could be very wealthy and give much to the poor ? but that is not the point, the point of Christ Jesus is you Soul, this must be fed by Jesus to come into the Kingdom of God. that's the Key !

What is the most important thing in ones life ? Christ Jesus !

Ones True Life starts with Christ Jesus and ends with Christ Jesus !

True. One can be attached to this life and love it that they can be tempted like Lot's wife to never want to leave it.
 

Curtis

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The place of the damned aka hell in English is derived from the Greek word, "geena" or Gehenna which is the valley of slaughter on earth.

Reprobates are those disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven for being in iniquity still, for why they are being excommunicated to being left behind on earth for when that destruction comes. Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17:26-37 - King James Version
Saints are by definition those who have been redeemed- God will never destroy any of the redeemed, as long as they remain in Christ- if they become reprobate, they are no longer saints, but are the damned.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Luke 16

Notice this...

The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

So, here is how to rightly divide The Word in cases like this..so that you are not overlapping the Old Covenant, on Top of the New Covenant, which of course, is how heretics believe and are created, actually.
This is the result of "wrongly dividing" the word of God.

Always remember, ...When Jesus was alive, before He Died, He was only dealing with the House of Israel., and He was "under the law".
See that?
So, when He is teaching, He is talking to JEWS who are under the law of Moses, and that is the OLD Covenant....and that would include the verse about the 'rich man in hell".

After Jesus died on the Cross, the NEW Covenant and the NEW TESTAMENT began, and the "time of the Gentiles" began, and the Gospel of the GRACE of GOD came into effect as Paul showed up, and taught us that the "blood of Jesus" is a "one time eternal sacrifice", and we who have been born again, are not that Old Testament "rich man", who is under the law... But rather we the born again, (not just water baptized) are not under the law, we are "under GRACE", and this Grace, is the blood atonement that is "Jesus became Sin" and we who are born again are become "the Righteousness of GOD", 'In Christ"....
See that? That is the NEW Covenant, and the "rich man in hell" was not born again and is under the LAW, = the OLD Covenant.

Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.


YOu are trying to read things into the parable that are not there. This is a true story and not a parable. when Jesus says "there was a man" you can bank, there was a man!

All people since Adam are saved because of the blood of Jesus! Remember in Rev. Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world!
All are saved by grace through faith- but the object of faith in God changed throughout the various dispensations.

By the fifth century B.C. The concept of the grave had been full understood. Hell (the grave) had three compartments until Jesus ascension to heaven.

1. Tartarus, where the angels who came down in Gen. 6 and had sex with women are chained.
2. Place of torments- where the unrighteous dead are awaiting final deposit in the lake of fire. Here is where the rich man was suffering.
3. Abrahams Bosom/Paradise where Lazarus went, the penitent thief, all the righteous dead went. This is where Jesus went and preached duirng the time His body was in the grave.

Once Jesus rose, He took the souls of the righteous with him, closed paradise (in Ephesians), so now as Paul wrote in Cor. when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord!
 

Taken

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Luke 16

Notice this...

The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.

One Point:
The “rich man” in hell, same as the men in the OT, had opportunity TO HEAR the Word of God, Believe it or not.
(Didn’t matter, IF he knew the NAME of the Word of God was Jesus, same as the OT men did not KNOW the NAME of the Word of God.)

Another Point:
Jesus’ Parables, were given to REVEAL things that HAD BEEN KEPT secret from OT men.

Another Point:
IF the “rich man” in hell HAD believed the Word of God....
AT THE TIME OF HIS PHYSICAL DEATH...his soul would have been SAVED “THEN”...and his living soul would HAVE BEEN, on the comfort side of hell, with Abraham’s SAVED living soul.

Understanding;
* Once a man physically DIES in UNBElIEF, there is no offering for them to receive Salvation....
* IF a man accepts Jesus’ offering of Salvation BEFORE physical death, Their soul IS Saved, Before physical Death.
* IF a man believes Jesus is the Word of God, and continues believing, he is called “enduring” in belief to the end of his physical life, and SHALL be Saved, as the end of his physical life.
* Money can NOT buy a mans Salvation....
 

Christ4Me

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Saints are by definition those who have been redeemed- God will never destroy any of the redeemed, as long as they remain in Christ- if they become reprobate, they are no longer saints, but are the damned.

What do you think happens to a saint that becomes a vessel unto dishonor, a vessel of wood & earth, in His House for not departing from iniquity?

In 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 at this link in the KJV Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 - King James Version We see God destroying the temple of God that believers had defiled their bodies with iniquity; wood, stubble, and hay.

Soul is different from spirit as you say but it is the vitality of that life that is destroyed. The vessels unto honor that shall be raptured, are the ones that are like the angels that never die, but the vessels unto dishonor are not, but the power of the second death will not be over them, thus indicating the power of the first death still is. This is why they and the generations coming from them, will need access to the tree of life in that New Jerusalem.

Makes one wonder that what was destroyed, was the soul in that vitality of life, they could have had as a vessel unto honor in His House, but their spirits is saved for why they are still in His House as vessels of wood & earth, for why they are called vessels unto dishonor but still in His House.
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:24-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on
me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool
off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

It's often assumed that the rich man was aflame like a burning log; but the
passage above suggests he was in fire but wasn't necessarily on fire like
someone coated with pitch. In other words; his side of the chasm was an
oven, i.e. he was overheated and dehydrated but not kindled like a human
torch.

Also; there's no mention of the rich man wailing and/or gnashing his teeth;
which suggests to me the although he's in a great deal of discomfort; it's all
what might be called threshold, i.e. within the limits of his tolerance for pain
and not quite enough to make him writhe, groan, and/or howl like a
wounded dog.

But how did the rich man expect Lazarus to come near him with some
water? Did he actually take it for granted that the beggar would agree to
sacrificing his own personal safety?

To think there are actually people in this world who truly believe that the
underprivileged exist solely for their benefit; sort of like commodities.


FAQ: Why wouldn't the rich man request passage for himself to cross over?

A: It's reasonable to expect that folks' first reaction upon arrival on the
wrong side of the netherworld is primal fear, i.e. panic; which would quite
naturally trigger a very strong impulse to try and find some way out of the
flames the same as anybody would do caught in, say, a hotel fire.
Consequently they find out right quick either by personal experience or by
talking with long-time prisoners, that the chasm is impassible; at least from
their side.

Now; exactly what the man had seen, or heard tell by others, that led him to
hope against hope that folks from Abraham's side were able to cross, I don't
know; maybe his request was just an act of desperation, or maybe he
thought he was special and deserved exceptions? But I'm beginning to
suspect there is lot more to this story than only the portions that Jesus
exposed-- a lot more.
_
 

Pierac

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When you look at your wife? you do it with your eyes....its called a vision.....its not called a hearing or a feeling.
The word 'vision' is interchangeable according to context....and I think you know that.

OMG!

WEBSTER 1828 Dictionary
VISION...

In Scripture, a revelation from God; an appearance or exhibition of something supernaturally presented to the minds of the prophets, by which they were informed of future events. Such were the visions of Isaiah, of Amos, of Ezekiel, &c.

Something imaginary; the production of fancy.

Not what I see when I look at my wife for sure!!! LOL

Peace,
Paul
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment.

Judas goats are trained for use in slaughterhouses and herd control. In
stockyards, they lead sheep to slaughter; and are also used to lead other
animals to specific pens and on to trucks. The term is a reference to the
biblical traitor Judas Iscariot.

The phrase has also been used to describe goats utilized to locate feral goats
targeted for eradication. They're usually outfitted with a transmitter, painted
in red and then released. The goats then locate the remaining herds of feral
goats, allowing hunters with tracking devices to find and exterminate them.
The red paint marks the goat with the transmitter so the hunters know
which one not to shoot.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess
it's plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak
a pull from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard
something coming up behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little
boy coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was
easy; I walked in your footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led
them down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing
themselves doing the right thing. In other words: they actually Judas-goated
their children to follow mom and dad down there. For some families, the
only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire
and despair.
_