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Pierac

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At the time Jesus gave that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, Paradise or Abraham's bosom was located beneath the earth.

It was after His ascension in leading the captivity captive to Heaven is why Paradise is now located in heaven as He did bring them to God

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul was testifying indirectly about the apostle John and that Book of Revelation.


Now in regards to parables, Jesus never referenced a real life person in any of his parables for why you should reconsider the rich man & the beggar named Lazarus, as a true story.

Really... because the wages for sin is death... Yet you say the rich man and the beggar Lazarus just get to bypass this Law of GOD. They rose to life with no savior to die for their sins, as Jesus was still alive when giving this parable ! Please think before you post!!!

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
No thoughts or talking to others!!!

(Dan 12:2). "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Yet you claim they are already awake and talking with others...


Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

So your saying the scriptures don't apply to the rich man and Lazarus??? Remember your the one saying this was a literal story... not some future event!!!

Please... It's like I'm dealing with spiritual infants

Paul
 
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Christ4Me

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Really... because the wages for sin is death... Yet you say the rich man and the beggar Lazarus just get to bypass this Law of GOD. They rose to life with no savior to die for their sins, as Jesus was still alive when giving this parable ! Please think before you post!!!


Only the beggar Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. The rich man was in hell.


(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
No thoughts or talking to others!!!

(Dan 12:2). "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Yet you claim they are already awake and talking with others...


Jesus made that claimed when He gave that account. And since a real person was named and Jesus is God, He ought to know.


Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

So your saying the scriptures don't apply to the rich man and Lazarus??? Remember your the one saying this was a literal story... not some future event!!!

Please... It's like I'm dealing with spiritual infants

Paul

Those verses only apply to the person's life and plans on earth where in the afterlife, he has no thought in regards to the land of the living, nor job, nor anything else to gain in that land of the living because he is not in the land of the living any more. That does not negate his awareness in the afterlife.
 
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Webers_Home

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Luke 16:27-29 . .I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets;
let them listen to them.

Somebody needs to assist me with Abraham's instructions by guiding me to
locations in the Old Testament that speak of an afterlife place of conscious
suffering like where the rich man is situated. In other words: a hell where
folks are taken into custody the moment they pass away as opposed to the
future hell depicted at Isa 66:22-24 and Rev 20:11-15.

Thank You.
_
 
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Webers_Home

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There's any number of ways the lost could be making their journeys to the
netherworld. For example instead of being dragged underground by ghastly
beings such as those described in post No.27, they may just fall down into
the ground like water through a sieve.

That's not a ridiculous idea seeing as deceased folk leave this world as
disembodied spirits. According to John 4:24 spirit is immaterial, i.e. it has no
mass to speak of. Spirit's movement isn't impeded by solid materials like
metal and dirt, or wood and stone.

And spirit takes up no space. For example the feral man of Mark 5:1-13 was
possessed by a community of spirits who labeled themselves Legion.
Webster's defines a legion as the principal unit of the Roman army
comprising 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers with cavalry.
.
The legion of spirits that left that man went out and took up residence in a
herd of about 2,000 swine. That's a pretty good example of how spirits take
up no room in the physical world; nor do they crowd each other. All 3,000
6,000 of those spirits managed to fit inside the bodily cargo area of just that
one guy. Just imagine the number of spirits that could fit into the passenger
area of an SUV.


NOTE: Those spirits slipped right out of that man. There was no need to cut
him open so they could evacuate.
_
 

Davy

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Luke 16

Notice this...

The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.
....

Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.

Of course the rich man of Luke 16 was not yet 'born again', he found himself in hell then, and of course Jesus was giving that story to the Jews at His 1st coming, why? Because of the Jews not understanding of what happens after death of the flesh, that one's soul continues to the heavenly. That... is the real Message Jesus was giving them, that based on their evil ways they were in danger of going to hell where the rich man was.

And the fact that the rich man in hell wanted Abraham to send someone to his brethren still alive to warn them of that place, that is a further Message about that heavenly place of hell being REAL. It shows Jesus was not making those events up, but was speaking of a REAL place in the heavenly.

Then when Jesus died and The Father raised Him, He went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them, and led the prisoners that believed out of that prison house, a prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that He would do that (see 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6). If the rich man in hell believed, then Jesus led him out at that time.
 

Pierac

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Only the beggar Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom. The rich man was in hell.




Jesus made that claimed when He gave that account. And since a real person was named and Jesus is God, He ought to know.




Those verses only apply to the person's life and plans on earth where in the afterlife, he has no thought in regards to the land of the living, nor job, nor anything else to gain in that land of the living because he is not in the land of the living any more. That does not negate his awareness in the afterlife.


Really... define the afterlife!

Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

You need to talk with God... Because Gen 2:17 is Sooo much better that burning forever! I mean how did we get from just dying... to burning in some Hell fire???

So surly when Cain killed Able... We are going to get the Fire Baby!!!

Crap... Not so... Just a little wuss made to walk the earth all alone... So sad! He even said it was too much... Guess he never heard about burning forever and ever???

Gen 4:10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 "Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 "When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth."

Gen 4:13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is too great to bear!

You have no Idea what's going on... So stop preaching what your told... and seek the truth you do not hear in Church... You think Cain a man whom spoke with GOD believed as you when He said... "My punishment is too great to bear!

Your being taught Lies... My friend
Paul
 
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Pierac

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hmmmm, no one in heaven? Moses? Elijah? Enoch?

Did you really post this??? Come on Man!

I get your view...

Mat 17:1 Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

You just need to keep reading... AND not try to find verses out of context to support your view...

Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

Don't confuse a Vision as confirmed by your Christ Jesus... as an actual event!!!

Hmmm,
I am forced to deal with spiritual children
Paul
 

quietthinker

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Did you really post this??? Come on Man!

I get your view...

Mat 17:1 Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
Mat 17:2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

You just need to keep reading... AND not try to find verses out of context to support your view...

Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

Don't confuse a Vision as confirmed by your Christ Jesus... as an actual event!!!

Hmmm,
I am forced to deal with spiritual children
Paul
'the vision' means what they saw. Now when you look at the news on television of a volcano erupting in the pacific do you reduce that to something that didn't actually happen?
Scripture tells us Enoch never saw death and Elijah was translated. Where to is the question?
 

Christ4Me

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Really... define the afterlife!


No longer in the land of the living.

Gen 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

You need to talk with God... Because Gen 2:17 is Sooo much better that burning forever! I mean how did we get from just dying... to burning in some Hell fire???


When they are dead, judgment is given in the afterlife for where they are going.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


So surly when Cain killed Able... We are going to get the Fire Baby!!!

Crap... Not so... Just a little wuss made to walk the earth all alone... So sad! He even said it was too much... Guess he never heard about burning forever and ever???

Gen 4:10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground. 11 "Now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 "When you cultivate the ground, it will no longer yield its strength to you; you will be a vagrant and a wanderer on the earth."

Gen 4:13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is too great to bear!

You have no Idea what's going on... So stop preaching what your told... and seek the truth you do not hear in Church... You think Cain a man whom spoke with GOD believed as you when He said... "My punishment is too great to bear!

Your being taught Lies... My friend
Paul


Since Cain was shown mercy for killing Abel in the land of the living, I would not be too quick to say where He sent him in the afterlife.


If you read on, you would have seen this; do note how Cain still addressed Him as Lord. Then see how the Lord was merciful to him.

Genesis 4:
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We can never know if a person had repented of unbelief before they had died, but God knows since the Gentiles had believed and were saved without confessing Him out loud, or having gone forward to be publicly water baptized but they had believed and were born again of the Spirit.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So there is just cause to give pause to judging any one after they have died because we do not know while in the land of the living, but God does.

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

You should consider that you have made assumptions and judgments not found so explicitly in scriptures. We are to warn of hell and the consequence for sinning, but God may cause the increase at the sinner's death bed in revealing His Son to him or her to believe in Him or maybe not. We should leave the judgment of the dead to God in the afterlife, but we are to warn sinners of God of His judgment in the land of the living, as long as we also give them the Good News in Jesus Christ in how to escape that eternal torment that is coming for they are already condemned.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, we can give God's judgment to warn the sinners in the land of the living, as well as present the Good News, but after they die, God judges.
 

quietthinker

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No longer in the land of the living.



When they are dead, judgment is given in the afterlife for where they are going.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:




Since Cain was shown mercy for killing Abel in the land of the living, I would not be too quick to say where He sent him in the afterlife.


If you read on, you would have seen this; do note how Cain still addressed Him as Lord. Then see how the Lord was merciful to him.

Genesis 4:
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We can never know if a person had repented of unbelief before they had died, but God knows since the Gentiles had believed and were saved without confessing Him out loud, or having gone forward to be publicly water baptized but they had believed and were born again of the Spirit.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So there is just cause to give pause to judging any one after they have died because we do not know while in the land of the living, but God does.

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

You should consider that you have made assumptions and judgments not found so explicitly in scriptures. We are to warn of hell and the consequence for sinning, but God may cause the increase at the sinner's death bed in revealing His Son to him or her to believe in Him or maybe not. We should leave the judgment of the dead to God in the afterlife, but we are to warn sinners of God of His judgment in the land of the living, as long as we also give them the Good News in Jesus Christ in how to escape that eternal torment that is coming for they are already condemned.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, we can give God's judgment to warn the sinners in the land of the living, as well as present the Good News, but after they die, God judges.
the idea of an afterlife when one dies is straight from the manuals of pagan philosophy......it is not biblical.
 
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Christ4Me

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the idea of an afterlife when one dies is straight from the manuals of pagan philosophy......it is not biblical.

Jesus made it Biblical.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

King Saul had even used a medium to raise up the spirit of the prophet Samuel as scripture cannot lie when the scripture testified that Samuel had spoken unto Saul and had uttered a prophesy from the Lord to Saul that it came true regarding the deaths of King Saul & his two sons.

Read 1 Samuel 28:1-20 at this link ---> Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 28:1-20 - King James Version

That is why it was forbidden because people are to seek answers from the living God & not from the dead for they really can contact the spirits of the dead.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Luke 16
The "rich man" in Luke.....this parable, is given before Jesus died on The CROSS.

So, this "rich man in hell" had no chance to "believe on Jesus" and be "SAVED", "born again", as there as no Jesus on the Cross yet. No Blood Atonement.
Jesus had not died for the sin of the world, yet.....= No John 3:16 and John 3:17 yet.
--Are you suggesting ALL who lived prior to Christ's death all the way back to Adam, Abraham, David (Psalms 23:6) are all lost since they all lived prior to (John 3:16-17) and had no chance to believe on Jesus ??

--how do you explain John's baptism which remitted sins (Mark 1:4) yet took place BEFORE Christ shed His blood?


Behold said:
Reader... There was no Christ on the Cross at that time.. There was no New Testament or New Covenant....which means that this "rich man in hell" verse cannot be Theologically or Doctrinally appled to a NEW Testament Born Again Believer.

Jesus was not teaching OSAS for the Christian, He was not teaching that it is impossible for the Christian to be lost but He was foretelling the role reversal that would take place between Jew and Gentile. The rich man represented the Jew, God's chosen, they had God's favor dressed in royal purple and prospered. Lazarus represented the Gentile, lost in sin, in filth, dressed in rags (in sin), without Christ, (Ephesians 2:12). The dog licked the sores means Israel did nothing to help the Gentile and his salvation but scorned the Gentiles treating them as dogs thinking salvation only belonged to the Jews. The poor, begging Gentile begged, desired food (God's word) but got nothing from the Jews. Yet the Jews had God's word but disregarding it, which if those Jews that possessed the OT law had believed it, they would have known Jesus was the Messiah and would have teach salvation to the Gentiles. Now we find the roles are going to be reversed, the Jew in torment and the Gentile at rest, God having cast off the Jew and grafted in the Gentile (Romans 11).
 
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Wrangler

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Stop right there! THIS IS NOT A PARABLE, IT IS A TRUE STORY, TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!

"If it was a parable, there would not be specific names of familiar people like Abraham and his spiritual location. Why describe two locations that exist after death in detail to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist?

I'm afraid I cannot agree. What is the rich man's name? And what is the name of the beggar he passed by during his lifetime?

The answer to your question is to reinforce the mythology of hell and Abraham. It's like saying, 'I went down town' to talk to 'the man in charge.' How would you tell the parable if not refer to hell and Abraham, 'the Father of Faith?'
 

Christ4Me

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the idea of an afterlife when one dies is straight from the manuals of pagan philosophy......it is not biblical.

Jesus said it & I believe Him. The scripture testify of it regardless of the pagan claim to be the first that spoke of the afterlife.

Who is the authority that the pagans first believed in the afterlife? Which of the pagan religions has the right to say what that after life is as being the origin of that belief in the afterlife?

Just because the evidence in earliest historical documents suggest a certain pagan people believed in the after life first, it does not mean by lack of evidence that no one else did, especially the religious, and even the lineage that Abraham was a part of. Do reconsider that comment of yours.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I'm afraid I cannot agree. What is the rich man's name? And what is the name of the beggar he passed by during his lifetime?

The answer to your question is to reinforce the mythology of hell and Abraham. It's like saying, 'I went down town' to talk to 'the man in charge.' How would you tell the parable if not refer to hell and Abraham, 'the Father of Faith?'
The name of the beggar is there, Lazarus. You see, you lack basic information about the story, yet have a firm view. The Rich Man was not named, but Abraham was. He is not imaginary or abstract. for Christ to create and imaginary place like Hades just to tell a story to mean something else would be confusing. Sheol is found in the Bible sixty-five times. It is translated “the pit” three times, “the grave” thirty-one times, and “hell” thirty-one times. If it wasn't mentioned anywhere else in scripture, I might think this story was a parable.
 
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Wrangler

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The name of the beggar is there, Lazarus. You see, you lack basic information about the story, yet have a firm view. The Rich Man was not named

I do not lack basic information. I read the story repeatedly. I find it odd that the only person not named is the one the story is named after.

You think it is literally true. Others think it is a parable. Make a blessed day.
 

Christ4Me

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I do not lack basic information. I read the story repeatedly. I find it odd that the only person not named is the one the story is named after.

You think it is literally true. Others think it is a parable. Make a blessed day.

If referring to the rich man being nameless, he served as a warning for all the rich & those that ignore the poor when it is in their power to help them.

The ones that are named are the ones that only matter as their names are now in the Book of Life since His ascension.
 

Pierac

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'the vision' means what they saw. Now when you look at the news on television of a volcano erupting in the pacific do you reduce that to something that didn't actually happen?
Scripture tells us Enoch never saw death and Elijah was translated. Where to is the question?

A vision is not reality, it is a way in which God communicates or instructs us. In the transfiguration, the message was intended for Peter, James, and John. Let’s take a look at some other visions. Genesis 15:1 says:

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abraham in a vision."

"Daniel had a dream as he lay in bed, and was terrified by the visions of his mind" (Daniel 7:1).

Daniel then goes on to describe his vision which includes four beasts, one that looks like a lion with eagle wings etc. This is an excellent example of a vision. God is revealing a message to Daniel, the details are not necessarily reality, it is the message that is important. The message in this case is about the end times. God many times uses symbols to get his point across. But there are not going to be four actual beasts that look like a lion with eagle wings etc.

The purpose of the vision of the transfiguration was to confirm to Peter, James, and John that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. The New American Bible states on this verse:

"Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Mount Sinai. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory."

It was a vision. It would be irresponsible to use this episode for any other purpose than what it was intended for.

Man made tradition has done everything possible to confuse God’s word, but it is very easy to see past the lies if one just takes the time to look. Once you understand these important points, a lot of the Bible starts to make sense, because it stops contradicting itself. You are no longer trying to force Greek thought into Hebrew writings. Think about it, if you believe that you go to heaven after you die, how would you explain all the verses in this paper without making a shamble out of the Bible?

Now, about 2 Kings 2:11: "And Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind."

This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth.


This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab’s vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.

"After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:

"When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."

Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:

"He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."

The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus’ statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven." Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man’s interpretation of this verse is wrong?

About Enoch?
The problem with Enoch is two-fold. The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states:
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since in this chapter it reads of everyone else, "then he died" and of Enoch it does not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," They conclude that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.

It says in verse 23:

"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

To me that implies that Enoch’s whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:

"Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."

"Walked with God," means that the person follows God’s will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:

laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:

"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person’s death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person’s death.

So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."

The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."

The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:

"All these died in faith."

So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.

In John 8:51 Jesus says:
"I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."

This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.

For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.

Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."

Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."

If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 95% in favor that Enoch died, and 5% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.

If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong when he said. "No one has gone up to heaven."

Paul