The Seventh Seal

[quietthinker]

We are not talking about Eternity. God clearly tells us that to Him in His Spiritual realm, that to Him a thousand years of earth time. is equivalent to a single day. Making that clear statement into a metaphor, is wrong. What else do you wrongly interpret metaphorically?

Why do you just off handedly reject the truth of a time gap between the Sixth Seal and the glorious Return?

the statement by Peter of a thousand years is as on day and a day as a thousand years is saying no more than time is not relevant in God's reality as we see it.

It becomes a travesty when we take this expression and shape it to fit our faulty views.

It further ensures the conflation takes us down a divergent path.

Matthew 6:22-23
“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[Keraz]

the statement by Peter of a thousand years is as on day and a day as a thousand years is saying no more than time is not relevant in God's reality as we see it.

2 Peter 3:8 does not contradict itself. Peter simply says the same thing in reverse order.
There is no reason for us to not take that Biblical statement literally, and we CAN use it as a formula to get what Revelation 8:1 means.

The travesty for you, is in your inability to understand anything that conflicts with your fixed beliefs. As Isaiah 29:9-12 says.

 

[quietthinker]

2 Peter 3:8 does not contradict itself. Peter simply says the same thing in reverse order.
There is no reason for us to not take that Biblical statement literally, and we CAN use it as a formula to get what Revelation 8:1 means.

The travesty for you, is in your inability to understand anything that conflicts with your fixed beliefs. As Isaiah 29:9-12 says.

I will ask politely.....where is your objectivity? You use the text to underpin your foregone conclusions yet the text addresses a different matter altogether. You are reading into the text what you want it to say.

Secondly, your quote of Isaiah 29:9-12 as quoted below, (NIV) can equally be applied to you

Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine, stagger, but not from beer.
The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep. He has sealed your eyes (the prophets);
he has covered your heads (the seers).
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say, “Read this, please,” they will answer, “I can’t; it is sealed.” Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, “Read this, please,” they will answer, “I don’t know how to read.”

 

[Keraz]

where is your objectivity?

I read and understand the plain Prophetic Words'. Being 'objective' is just another cop out, just a way to make the scriptures fit with pre-conceived beliefs.

As for Prophesies like Isaiah 29:9-12, yes, it also applies to me: I do not claim to know it all. My task is to point out ALL the Prophesies and to present them in a coherent and logical sequence.

What I propound about the Seventh Seal, IS logical and scripturally supported. I see 'objections' to it, but no reasoned or viable alternatives.

 

[quietthinker]

I read and understand the plain Prophetic Words'. Being 'objective' is just another cop out, just a way to make the scriptures fit with pre-conceived beliefs.

It's no cop out being objective Keraz. It allows one to question ones preconceptions and become aware of the eisegesis rampant in the interpretation of scripture.

You claim exegesis but practice eisegesis. If you didn't you would have no issues with the principle and practice of objectivity.

You have cobbled together a view which in my view becomes a stumbling block .

My task is to point out ALL the Prophesies and to present them in a coherent and logical sequence.

This is your claim yet it is coherent and logical only in your own mind. The fact that you balk at the basic principle of objectivity favouring your own spin reveals this.

 

[Keraz]

I wait for anyone to put forward another sensible idea of what the Seventh Seal means and will do when opened.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We are not talking about Eternity. God clearly tells us that to Him in His Spiritual realm, that to Him a thousand years of earth time. is equivalent to a single day. Making that clear statement into a metaphor, is wrong. What else do you wrongly interpret metaphorically?

Why do you just off handedly reject the truth of a time gap between the Sixth Seal and the glorious Return?

No that is not what He said. He used that metaphor to describe patience

It is Keraz that is putting words on gods mouth by saying :

"God clearly tells us that to Him in His Spiritual realm, that to Him a thousand years of earth time. is equivalent to a single day. Making that clear statement into a metaphor, is wrong"

show me from Scripture where God says in the spiritual realm a human 1,000 years IS A day in heaven, and not figuratively as the language clearly and explicitly shows. If you are claiming to be a teacher of teh Word (or messenger) you should know grammar then.

when God says "1,000 years is as a day" that little word "as" tells us this is not a literal but metaphorical statement- just like in the parables.

NO I accept that from the opening of the sixth seal and Jesus physical return there is 7 years- not fifteen or something therabo0uts like you are preaching.

 

[rockytopva]

The Seven Candlesticks - Seven church movements
The Seven Stars - Those who proclaim the word to each of the seven movements
The Seven Seals - Each congregation will be sealed within the Lambs Book of Life

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? - Revelation 5:1-2

If this is not the Lamb's Book of Life why all the ado? I believe the book is still being populated and awaiting the seals. Notice that the sealed book appears in Revelation 5, or after the word to the seven churches. An experience in which the saints get "caught up" has happened and the sealed book now appears in the hand of him who sits on the thrown.

As the unsealing of the Book transpires plagues are unleashed on the planet earth.

 

[quietthinker]

@Keraz, I will throw this into the mix, The book of Revelation opens with 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ....'
Could we not deduct from this opening statement that a revealing is to follow; in fact a revealing of Jesus? ie, something extra/ extraordinary/ insightful?

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half hour.

We are clearly told that the ‘about a half hour’, is in heaven. Time in heaven is not and cannot be the same as earthly time, heaven doesn’t rotate or orbit the sun. God is eternal, His ways are not our ways. Anyway, the Bible informs us twice that one day in heaven is like [as] 1000 years on earth. Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 Genesis speaks of ‘6 days’ of creation, it seems more logical that they were actually 1000 year periods, or allegorically pointing to God’s 7000 year Plan for the earth.

We have a date for the completion of the 6000 year era of mankind’s rule, obtained from the careful addition of the given Biblical time periods and the commencement of Jesus’ ministry in 29/30 AD. Luke 3:1 2

The three tranches of 2000 years: Adam to Abraham, Abraham to Jesus. The first Advent to the glorious Return, then the thousand year Millennium reign of King Jesus. Gods 7000 year Plan for Mankind on the physical earth.

It had been assumed that the ‘half hour’ starts soon after the Sixth Seal and finishes at the commencement of the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation. That is: 3½ years before the Return. But the Sixth Seal commences the Wrath of God and the Lamb, Rev. 6:17, then we see it isn’t until the completion of the Great Tribulation, that the Wrath of God is finished. Revelation 15:1

The calculation of 1000 divided by 48 gives us a heavenly half-hour of about 20 earth years. But that is only the centre of a range of years possible because it is "about" a half-hour.

Calculating the range of years is based upon statistical rules: Since the text tells us a half-hour, we examine the next divisible time period which is a quarter-hour. We simply find the distance between 30 minutes and 15 minutes (above and below) and find the half-way points. This gives us +/- 5 centred on 20 years. Therefore the range is from 15 years to 25 years. If the actual year is outside of this range, then the Revelation account would have read "about a quarter of an hour” or “about three-quarters of an hour." But, Revelation says "about a half-hour." Thus we know it can't be outside the range of 15 to 25 years (including anything in between) otherwise "about an half-hour" would be wrong .

Therefore if, as seems likely, if the Sixth Seal – the great and terrible Day of the Lord, happens very soon – then the Seventh Seal follows immediately afterwards. So that will be the period of ‘silence in heaven’ but of tumult and huge changes on earth!

A lot must happen during that time – the regeneration of the Land, many prophesies about that – the Lord will send rain. Then the gathering, and settling of His people, again many prophecies – houses rebuilt, land productive... The selection of the 144,000, The Gog Magog attack and 7 years clean up. The treaty with the Anti-Christ, the AoD in the new Temple and 3½ years of the Great Tribulation. Then the glorious Return.

It all fits and I see the Hand of God in it.

Keraz, I appreciate your willingness to step out among us to share your understanding.
Personally, I've never taken the time to even guess at why there would be silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Rev. 8[1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

It is apparent that John is relating the period of silence according to the time of this earth. Therefore, could it be that the "heaven" [G3772] being talked about, is our atmosphere?

That is something worthy to think about, because Jesus will be revealed to the world in all His Immortal Glory, in flaming fire, from that level, aka the "air".
KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10
EDIT:
All of Rev. 7:1-17 is revealing the great tribulation, and all the saints having been resurrected and taken up to meet the Lord in the AIR. (1 Thes 4:16-18).
After that, is the silence in heaven (air, atmosphere) for a half hour in Rev. 8:1

 

[Earburner]

You say, 'Time in heaven is not and cannot be the same as earthly time' yet you continue and calculate Heaven time by Earth time.

You have just nullified your own assertion!

First, we must learn of which heaven is it that is being referenced.
Please see my recent post above to Keraz.

 

[quietthinker]

First, we must learn of which heaven is it that is being referenced.
Please see my recent post above to Keraz.

I read your post to Keraz.

The context is referencing what John observed in Heaven (the abode of God and angels and whoever else)
The inhabitants were silenced for a short space. I see this as remarkable seeing I imagine Heaven being that of joy and praise, of song and gladness etc.

When men are silenced on earth (for a short time) it is usually in the context of something profoundly unexpected occurring, either something someone has said or an action which leaves folk speechless.

Could we apply this principle to something unfolding in heaven? I don't find it an impossibility......particularly when we are told that all of heavens inhabitants are assembled, God on his throne included....yet no-one could be found to open the scroll.....that must include God on his throne. Is this a good reason for silence; is this a good reason for being gobsmacked, to put it in our language?

If this is the case, the question is what precipitated this silence? My deduction is it must have been whatever the scrolls revealed/was written in them.

 

[Keraz]

when God says "1,000 years is as a day" that little word "as" tells us this is not a literal but metaphorical statement- just like in the parables.

Using 'as' does not categorically mean 'inexact', or not literal.
What Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 say, is a formula. One that we can use to help explain Creation in Genesis, and Prophesies like Hosea 6:2 and Revelation 8:1.

To reject this, is to reject the clues which God gives us to help in understanding His plans for our future.

 

[quietthinker]

To reject this, is to reject the clues which God gives us to help in understanding His plans for our future.

This is your value structure which you are attempting to impose onto God. A bit presumptuous?

The scripture does give us clues however if the clues are maligned or misinterpreted we step on shaky ground when we make God responsible.

 

[Keraz]

This is your value structure which you are attempting to impose onto God. A bit presumptuous?

I believe what God tells us thru His Prophets. Merely arriving at a logical and probable understanding.

The scripture does give us clues however if the clues are maligned or misinterpreted we step on shaky ground when we make God responsible.

Don't you mean: when the 'clues', mean something that conflicts with your fixed beliefs?

I have seen many other theories on what the Seventh Seal means. What is yours? Mine is set out in the OP, I stand by it.

 

[quietthinker]

I believe what God tells us thru His Prophets. Merely arriving at a logical and probable understanding.

Don't you mean: when the 'clues', mean something that conflicts with your fixed beliefs?

I have seen many other theories on what the Seventh Seal means. What is yours? Mine is set out in the OP, I stand by it.

hmmmm, your comment on 'clues'. Have you not turned it onto me again when it applies to you? (projection)

Re the Seventh Seal meaning......The seals are a package....messages of woe (suffering). The last seal (7th) is the response of heaven (silence). Post #11 is my brief comment....and further is post #32

 

[quietthinker]

@Keraz Your OP conflates information which is in itself not compatible.
Using this method it is possible to make anything mean anything......and you do so to construct a subjective and biased picture.
You have not stood back and questioned whether your interpretation of the texts you use are even consistent with the context the various texts are in (objectivity)......but have rolled like a run away train taking whatever in its path to its destination.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Using 'as' does not categorically mean 'inexact', or not literal.
What Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 say, is a formula. One that we can use to help explain Creation in Genesis, and Prophesies like Hosea 6:2 and Revelation 8:1.

To reject this, is to reject the clues which God gives us to help in understanding His plans for our future.

So you believe Creation took place over 6,000 years?

No as does not categorically mean it is metaphorical in use. But when you study the construct of the passage- you see it categorically is! Both for Ps. 90 and 2 Peter. You play fast and loose with rules of grammar to arrive at faulty conclusions. God does not violate the rules of Grammar He created so that He and we can communicate in an understandable way.

Maybe you should stop playing clue and start looking at the things as written. Every thinking we have dialogued on this forum I have rejected simply because you elevate reason, deduction, special revelation, and breaking these "clues".

If God had written in Peter, "a day with the Lord is a thousand years", case closed, I agree with you . But He did not and the insertion of "as" changes the whole meaning from a literal (with no as) to a metaphor.

This is harsh, but all's that does is put you in line with Joseph Smith, Charles Russel, David Koresh, Jim Jones and legions of others who sought to privately interpret Scripture.

And once again, you are not so subtly lifting up your answers to the supposed "clues" on par with Gods Word.

 

[Keraz]

What is the difficulty with thinking that the Seventh Seal does mean the time gap of the period between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Bowl?

Objections are OK, provided people give a viable alternative view. But what I get here, is accusations of heresy and judgmental sentences. For doing that; people are Judged themselves. James 4:11-12

What we can be sure of, is that The Plans of God will come to pass. No one will have got all of it correct, but those who promoted a better picture of the end times, will be rewarded and those who promoted confusion and error, will lose rewards. ! Cor 3:12-15

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is the difficulty with thinking that the Seventh Seal does mean the time gap of the period between the Sixth Seal and the Seventh Bowl?

There is a time gap for the trumpets to play out and the bowls to be poured- 7 years for Gods wrath to be poured out! Not this mythical 15+or- years based on your false calculations. Teh bible gives us a time frame.

Objections are OK, provided people give a viable alternative view. But what I get here, is accusations of heresy and judgmental sentences. For doing that; people are Judged themselves. James 4:11-12

What you are being judged correctly for is that you strongly imply like the cults that to reject your conclusions is to reject he Word of God!

What we can be sure of, is that The Plans of God will come to pass. No one will have got all of it correct, but those who promoted a better picture of the end times, will be rewarded and those who promoted confusion and error, will lose rewards. ! Cor 3:12-15

Well there is no better picture to paint of the end times- they are the days of darkness and gloom and wrath and judgment. It is the final attempt of Satan to rule and usurp god.