The Sheep and the Goats

[Davy]

When Jesus returns, He sends His angels to gather the "Chosen". Then He takes His throne, and the Nations are gathered to Him. Jesus will separate them right and left depending on who did and did not provide for the needs of Jesus' "brothers".

Nope. The separation actually begins with His seizing His elect faithful Church on His way to Jerusalem to begin His reign with them. Those gathered to the holy land will involve the faithful remnant along with the believing Gentiles, both making up His Church, and those are the "sheep" of Matthew 25 being taken to be on His right hand IN His Kingdom there. Isaiah 54 even says to 'enlarge' the symbolic tent to include the Gentiles.

Those remaining that He does not... gather, represent the 'goats' of Matthew 25.

The Judaizers wrongly interpret the following verse...

Matt 25:40
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me."
KJV

Lord Jesus is NOT... talking about His Jewish brethren with that "My brethren" phrase.

Heb 2:11-12
11 For both He That sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, 'I will declare Thy name unto My brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto Thee.'
KJV

Mark 3:32-35
32 And the multitude sat about Him, and they said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren without seek for Thee."
33 And He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brethren?"
34 And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."
KJV

Matt 12:49-50
49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of My Father Which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother."
KJV

Thus Lord Jesus was not referring to His flesh Jewish brethren in the Matthew 25 Scripture, but instead was referring to His Church.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 KJV
6) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 14:2 KJV
2) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Psalms 105:41-45 KJV
41) He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.
42) For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
43) And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
44) And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
45) That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 135:3-4 KJV
3) Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good: sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant.
4) For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isaiah 41:8-9 KJV
8) But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9) Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 44:1 KJV
1) Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

Israel is the Elect Nation, chosen from among the other nations. And they knew that, it was all through the Holy Scriptures.

Much love!

You need to UPDATE the 'old covenant' references in those above Scriptures to The New Covenant in what Apostles Paul and Peter said...

1 Peter 2:9-10
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Eph 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

 

[Davy]

The take-away here is, I think, that the separation of the sheep and goats according to their works, this is not a judgment of the one's who are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

The Sheep are determined righteous having done these certain works. Those "in Christ" are righteous with that having been given them for faith in Christ.

We believe God, as Abraham, and that is counted to us for righteousness. And we are born of above, recreated in righteousness.

The sheep cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and for that, they are called righteous.

This seems a very clear distinction to me.

Much love!

Still not correct thinking, because as I have shown, those "sheep" represent those of Christ's faithful Church that He gathers on the day of His coming. So how can there still be 'sheep' that were NOT... gathered at His coming, especially since Jesus said there those for whom the Kingdom has been prepared from the foundation of the world are His sheep there?

In software programming, your idea is what we call an 'infinite loop'. It continually goes around in a circle and basically halts the program until it is rebooted. Can't have a group as His 'sheep' promised His Kingdom not being His Church that He gathers at His coming.

 

[Huperetes]

@Davy

(coming from another thread)

The gathering when Jesus comes cannot include the current day Church, that is, IF you believe the exact words of Jesus' prophecy.

Simply stated, Jesus said that when He comes, He will send His angels gather the Chosen. Then, after He sits on His throne, the Nations will be gathered before Him, and He will judge them, separating them left and right, based on their treatment of Jesus' brothers, the Jews.

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another:
Mt 13:40-43
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[marks]

In old covenant times the nation of Israel considered themselves as a chosen nation unto God.

I think this goes towards your rejection of an historical grammatical hermeneutic. Paul, many years later, would apply "elect" to the church, as John would towards a certain person. Meanwhile, there was a commonly understood usage when Jesus gave the prophecy. For myself I believe that was what He meant.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The reality in true Bible study is that we often won't... be able to understand a specific scripture until we have... first found other Bible witnesses, and then compared them all together that will then form a proper interpretation of the initial scripture.

What I find is that when I hold to what the passages say for themselves that I find harmony between them. When I find some disharmony between passages that's what lets me know to re-examine each, and find where it is I'm not taking the wording seriously, at it's plain saying. That's pretty much always what the answer is. Sometimes from word studies, and sometimes from just meditating on and frequently repeating a passage. But pretty much always, coming to recognize more clearly the plain saying of the text.

None of your other witnesses will ever negate the saying of a single passage. Not ever.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You may be right their mark, but because the narrative prophecy is not being understood, I would suggest that the narrative is more in keeping with a parable.

Agreed. The sheep goat judgment concerns the Great White Throne judgment of the nations.

In other words, He was not referring to Israel per se, but to any and all whom He had come for, including both folds, the Jews and the Gentiles according to the will of God.

Nope, that is NOT what Jesus is saying there in Matthew 25. Instead, what you are saying about it is what you picked up from some Judaizer convert.

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another:

Do each of you think that the King James gives an accurate translation to the Greek in this passage? Are there any words you think may have been mistranslated? Do you think the text has been affected by variants in the manuscript?

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

 

[Huperetes]

Do each of you think that the King James gives an accurate translation to the Greek in this passage? Are there any words you think may have been mistranslated? Do you think the text has been affected by variants in the manuscript?

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

None of the textual variants affect any major doctrine of the bible. 75% of them are spelling errors. Here is a good video on the reliability of the New Testament.

Daniel Wallace — The Basics of New Testament Textual Criticism

 

[Davy]

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another:
Mt 13:40-43
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

But that's not the order of events Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse. Matthew 13:40-43 is still covering Christ's future "thousand years" reign also; it's just not written there, because the wicked (tares) don't go into the "lake of fire" until AFTER the "thousand years" of Rev.20. Thus Jesus is giving a type of summary for the end in that Matthew 13 example, and that's all.

And, I already showed that "brethren" in Matthew 25:40 was Jesus speaking about His saints, and NOT His flesh family of birth.

 

[Davy]

I think this goes towards your rejection of an historical grammatical hermeneutic. Paul, many years later, would apply "elect" to the church, as John would towards a certain person. Meanwhile, there was a commonly understood usage when Jesus gave the prophecy. For myself I believe that was what He meant.

Much love!

What I said does not go against God's Word. You 'trying'... to say those simply by being born... of Israel make them God's chosen per The New Covenant is what goes against God's Word.

 

[Davy]

What I find is that when I hold to what the passages say for themselves that I find harmony between them.

And I find trying to do that is impossible. And I'll tell you why; because you would never go looking for 'other' Scripture witnesses IF... you were decided on what the initial Scripture meant. We look for other Scripture witnesses to help us determine the initial Scripture meaning. That's how you must do it, so I don't know why you're not wanting to admit it. It's like you're just in a 'disagree with you on everything' type crazy mood.

 

[Davy]

Do each of you think that the King James gives an accurate translation to the Greek in this passage? Are there any words you think may have been mistranslated? Do you think the text has been affected by variants in the manuscript?

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

Ah come on now, you well know Jesus was NOT pointing to His siblings in that Matthew 25:40 verse when He said "my brethren". Trying to apply that to just Jews is ridiculous.

And I showed you the Hebrews 2:11-12, and Mark 3:32-35 and Matthew 12:49-50 Scripture proof that He means His Church brethren, of which you said NOTHING.

Moreover, you haven't even said anything about the Matthew 25:34 verse where Jesus said to His "sheep" on the right hand, come to inherit the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, and how that relates directly... to His Church per Apostle Paul.

 

[Davy]

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

What you said in agreement with Episkipos below:

"Agreed. The sheep goat judgment concerns the Great White Throne judgment of the nations."

... is also false. He obviously does not believe the Revelation 20 chapter about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect that begins at His future return. Thus God's Great White Throne Judgment does NOT happen immediately right after Christ's future return. It ONLY will happen AFTER the "thousand years" of Rev.20, and I'm sure you well 'know' this. So WHY are you going against God's written Word?

 

[Davy]

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

As far as I'm concerned, you have LOST this debate, because you have refused to respond to Scripture explanations I have shown you. That can only mean one thing; you are determined to continue in the false doctrines you are presently on, regardless of what the Scripture reveals.

 

[Huperetes]

But that's not the order of events Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse. Matthew 13:40-43 is still covering Christ's future "thousand years" reign also; it's just not written there, because the wicked (tares) don't go into the "lake of fire" until AFTER the "thousand years" of Rev.20. Thus Jesus is giving a type of summary for the end in that Matthew 13 example, and that's all.

And, I already showed that "brethren" in Matthew 25:40 was Jesus speaking about His saints, and NOT His flesh family of birth.

There is no "gathering" in the millennial kingdom so Mt13 40-43 cannot be referring to the future reign. God reigns fire out of heaven on the wicked after the 1000 years are finished. Angels have nothing to do with it.

Rv 20:7-10
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat 13 40-43 fit perfectly with Mat 24. Read Mt 24:25 : "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." That verse is not a rapture verse. It is to gather the vultures to eat the dead carcasses of the wicked. It aligns with these verses in Revelation :

Rv 19:17-18 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
This means that there is a cleansing of the wicked from the earth before the return of Jesus.

Blessings

 

[Davy]

There is no "gathering" in the millennial kingdom so Mt13 40-43 cannot be referring to the future reign. God reigns fire out of heaven on the wicked after the 1000 years are finished. Angels have nothing to do with it.

You are skirting what the actual Revelation 20 chapter states.

God's Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER... the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign with His elect Church. That means the 'unsaved' of the nations are NOT destroyed in the "lake of fire" until AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign!

Rev 20:7-12
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

 

[Huperetes]

You are skirting what the actual Revelation 20 chapter states.

God's Great White Throne Judgment happens AFTER... the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign with His elect Church. That means the 'unsaved' of the nations are NOT destroyed in the "lake of fire" until AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign!

Rev 20:7-12
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

Matthew 13:40-43 are not referring to the lake of fire from the GWT judgement. You are wresting the text into your paradigm and ignoring it's clear meaning. It cannot be referring to the GWT judgement because the wicked are immediately cast, without judgement, into a flaming hell that is not the lake of fire. If you would stop pretending that you understand prophecy you might just learn something.
Don't be a Ferrous Cranus

 

[Davy]

Matthew 13:40-43 are not referring to the lake of fire from the GWT judgement. You are wresting the text into your paradigm and ignoring it's clear meaning. It cannot be referring to the GWT judgement because the wicked are immediately cast, without judgement, into a flaming hell that is not the lake of fire. If you would stop pretending that you understand prophecy you might just learn something.
Don't be a Ferrous Cranus

Where was Christ's last Word about the destruction of the 'tares'? In the Revelation 20 Chapter, which you are EVADING on purpose.

The following Scripture MUST ALSO AGREE with what Jesus showed in His Book of Revelation!

Matt 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

When, PER REVELATION are those 'tares' to be burned in the "lake of fire"? AFTER the future "thousand years" of Christ's future reign per Rev.20.


41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

When will that above happen? On the DAY of His future coming! That is ALSO the SAME DAY when He will send His angels to gather His elect Church too, per the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, you know, the PREVIOUS Matthew 24 Chapter that came PRIOR to this Matthew 25 Chapter?


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There's actually 2 POSSIBLE ways to view this above verse. That "wailing and gnashing of teeth" was also shown to happen when the wicked are cast to the "outer darkness"!

Matt 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

That "outer darkness" is NOT the future "lake of fire" destruction event that's to occur only after God's future GWT Judgment per Rev.20. That "outer darkness" will be a place of separation away from Christ and His Church, like where those of Revelation 22:15 will be cast to, outside the gates of the beloved city.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Once those 'goats' are separated to 'outside' the gates of the holy city where Jesus and His faithful Church are, that... is when the above will happen.

 

[Huperetes]

Where was Christ's last Word about the destruction of the 'tares'? In the Revelation 20 Chapter, which you are EVADING on purpose.

The following Scripture MUST ALSO AGREE with what Jesus showed in His Book of Revelation!

Matt 13:40-43
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

When, PER REVELATION are those 'tares' to be burned in the "lake of fire"? AFTER the future "thousand years" of Christ's future reign per Rev.20.


41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

When will that above happen? On the DAY of His future coming! That is ALSO the SAME DAY when He will send His angels to gather His elect Church too, per the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture, you know, the PREVIOUS Matthew 24 Chapter that came PRIOR to this Matthew 25 Chapter?


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

There's actually 2 POSSIBLE ways to view this above verse. That "wailing and gnashing of teeth" was also shown to happen when the wicked are cast to the "outer darkness"!

Matt 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

That "outer darkness" is NOT the future "lake of fire" destruction event that's to occur only after God's future GWT Judgment per Rev.20. That "outer darkness" will be a place of separation away from Christ and His Church, like where those of Revelation 22:15 will be cast to, outside the gates of the beloved city.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

Once those 'goats' are separated to 'outside' the gates of the holy city where Jesus and His faithful Church are, that... is when the above will happen.

please note: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of THIS world.

"This world" refers to the present age. They are gathered at the end of THIS age. The Millennial kingdom is the NEXT age. You are merging the verses without properly dividing the word.
This clearly shows what Mt 25:30 is talking about:

Lk 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Do you see he was in hell and not the lake of fire? They are not the same thing. This can be proven because at the GWT judgement
Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire:

Rv 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If hell is thrown into the lake of fire then they cannot be the same thing.


Blessings

 

[ScottA]

Do each of you think that the King James gives an accurate translation to the Greek in this passage? Are there any words you think may have been mistranslated? Do you think the text has been affected by variants in the manuscript?

I'm curious, I want to make sure we are all in agreement over the words Jesus spoke. Are we?

Much love!

That's a good question, but it hardly matters for it is discerned spiritually.

Mat 25:32 And G2532 before G1715 him G846 shall be gathered G4863 all G3956 nations: G1484 and G2532 he shall separate G873 them G846 one G240 ➔ from G575 another, G240 as G5618 a shepherd G4166 divideth G873 his sheep G4263 from G575 the goats: G2056

"Dividing the sheep from the goats" could be translated as dividing the "wool" from the sheep. Which then becomes like "two shall be in a field, and one shall be taken and the other left." Such a translation would be against the flesh...which we know already is returned to the dust to be dissolved with fervent heat and with fire, just as the elements of the earth.

Was that what you were referring to?

 

[Davy]

please note: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of THIS world.

"This world" refers to the present age. They are gathered at the end of THIS age. The Millennial kingdom is the NEXT age. You are merging the verses without properly dividing the word.
This clearly shows what Mt 25:30 is talking about:

Lk 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Do you see he was in hell and not the lake of fire? They are not the same thing. This can be proven because at the GWT judgement
Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire:

Rv 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If hell is thrown into the lake of fire then they cannot be the same thing.


Blessings

I see you are STILL evading the Rev.20 Scripture which DEFINES THE GWT JUDGMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE EVENT HAPPENS ONLY AT THE END... OF CHRIST'S FUTURE THOUSAND YEARS REIGN.