The soon coming rapture?

[The Light]

2 Thess.1:4
IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days,Jesus steps up to claim what is his,v 30 states by Jesus mouth that ALL the tribes of the EARTH mourn and shall see HIM COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.[ no secret rapture here],v 31 clarifies he's here to collect HIS OWN !

GODS WRATH WILL BEGIN FOR THOSE WHO CONTINUED IN UNBELIEF AND SERVED EVIL !

Exactly. Christ tells us EXACTLY when He is coming, and there is no secret rapture with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. He will be in clouds for all to see.

If you are looking for the secret rapture you might realize that He is coming when you think not.

Matthew24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

He comes BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

 

[The Light]

So many teachers here and so much falsehood. Everyone thinks they are right in their own eyes. And the scripture they give is cherry picked without full understanding.

I wish it wasn’t so.

If everyone thought as you, no one would be preparing for the bridegroom. He is coming when you think not. The fig tree has two harvests. Gods feast days have two harvest feasts. He is coming more than once.

 

[ewq1938]

Let me give you some credit. You are about the one I have seen that realizes that Jesus returns at the 6th seal.

Why then does Christ remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

 

[ewq1938]

He is coming more than once.

No, he is coming one more time.

Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[The Light]

Why then does Christ remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

I missed the part where he remains in heaven. What verse are you getting that from?

The gathering is from heaven and earth is before the wrath of God. The wrath of God begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days.

2 thes 2.
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The gathering is from heaven and earth as Jesus sends His angels and remains in the clouds.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

After the gathering Jesus returns to heaven with those gathered and you have the great multitude before the throne.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place during the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

I missed the part where he remains in heaven. What verse are you getting that from?

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.


He is still in heaven to open the 7th seal.

The gathering is from heaven and earth is before the wrath of God. The wrath of God begins IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days.

Yes and that is found in Revelation 11.

After the gathering Jesus returns to heaven with those gathered and you have the great multitude before the throne.

No scripture presents a return to heaven after the rapture. Christ will continue descending until he gets to the area of Armageddon.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place during the wrath of God.

Why is there no supper in the chapter?

 

[The Light]

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
He is still in heaven to open the 7th seal.

He return to heaven after the gathering. That is why you see the great multitude before the throne in Rev 7. He went to clouds, sent His angels to gather the elect and returned to heaven. The great multitude in heaven is proof. How do you think they got to heaven, on a bus?

Yes and that is found in Revelation 11.

Uhhh, no. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal just like it says, as marked by cosmic signs of the sun moon and stars. The wrath of God begins at the 1st trumpet.

No scripture presents a return to heaven after the rapture. Christ will continue descending until he gets to the area of Armageddon.

The second rapture occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as marked by signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper. Here is the great multitude in heaven before the throne.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The great multitude is raptured to heaven for the marriage supper as Gods people are not appointed to wrath. You have the Church going through the wrath of God. The Church doesn't even go through the 70th week of Daniel which is the seals.

Why is there no supper in the chapter?

The wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened. We are presented with the wrath of God.

Here is the marriage supper that the great multitude is called to.
Rev19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

You are pretty confused. Common sense should tell you that the 1st 6 seals can be seen in Matthew 24. We can see Jesus coming at the darkening of the sun and moon and the stars falling from heaven. Then we see the great multitude in heaven. How do they get there? Some of them came out of the great tribulation.

So your timeline doesn't follow the Word of God.

 

[ewq1938]

He return to heaven after the gathering. That is why you see the great multitude before the throne in Rev 7. He went to clouds, sent His angels to gather the elect and returned to heaven. The great multitude in heaven is proof. How do you think they got to heaven, on a bus?

Most died.

Uhhh, no. The tribulation is over at the sixth seal just like it says, as marked by cosmic signs of the sun moon and stars. The wrath of God begins at the 1st trumpet.

The seals are just information about future events. The tribulation hadn't started when Christ opened the 7 seals. The wrath of God starts at the 7trh trump not the 1st.

The second rapture occurs with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as marked by signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper. Here is the great multitude in heaven before the throne.

There is one rapture of the saints not two and it doesn't happen during the seals.

The great multitude is raptured to heaven for the marriage supper as Gods people are not appointed to wrath. You have the Church going through the wrath of God.

Wrong, the church goes through the wrath of satan, the Great Tribulation.

You are pretty confused.

No, my understanding is decades more advanced than yours. You are the one who is confused.

So your timeline doesn't follow the Word of God.

No, that's yours.

 

[Timtofly]

Let me give you some credit. You are about the one I have seen that realizes that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. But the rest of what you are saying is wrong.

Revelation is written like this: Rev 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 are written and read in order. However the 1st part of Rev 7, the sealing of the 144,000 occurs earlier in the seals which we can prove by Rev 14. When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the wrath of God is OVER as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.......CHIST HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH.

Then beginning in Rev 13 you are back in the seals. We get a different view of the seals in Rev 13 and 14. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14, is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Then at the end of Rev 14 the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God, just like they are in Rev 6. The vials are the wrath of God, just like the trumpets are the wrath of God. Same timeframe, different view, additional information.

Just use common sense and read what it says. When the kingdoms of this world are the kingdoms of our Lord, Christ has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. Wrath is over.

I am using common sense and many other Scriptures throughout the Bible.

You have not even given a reasonable fact why the 14th chapter goes into a time loop. The Lamb and the 144k are waiting until the 42 months are over. That is why they are on Mount Zion. However if the 42 months did not start, being on Mount Zion during the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is not unreasonable. The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th Seals. Revelation 14 would not put them back to a time prior to them being sealed.

There is only one Second Coming at the 6th Seal. Satan only gets 42 months. Those 42 months can only be in the midst of a week of days, which is the week of celebration, called the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet brings the final harvest of Matthew 13 to a close. Jesus, the angels, and the 144k have been doing an earthly ministry during the first 6 Trumpets and then the 7 Thunders. Satan and his released army of angels have been busy. Souls have been harvested and sent to their eternal destinations. This is the reality of the Second Coming.

No one wants to admit that Jesus as Prince has been on earth during this time. Every one has been taught to look for an AC, which has no proof in Scripture. Just some made up scenario for some dramatic Hollywood productions and many, many books on the subject.

If people are correct, some misinformation was sown during the Reformation. Why would misinformation not work out just prior to the Second Coming itself? The book of Revelation is not a series of time loops. That is just another misinformation thought process, from some human's imagination, given mostly as an excuse and not a credible reason against chronological understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

Why then does Christ remain in heaven to open the 7th seal?

What verse declares this point? Jesus as Prince brings the Lamb's book of life with Him. Matthew 25:31 has Him sitting on a throne in Judgment. He has the book open to remove the names of those goats about to be sent into eternal damnation.

No, my understanding is decades more advanced than yours. You are the one who is confused.

Strange defensive argument. The teachings of the Sanhedren were decades more advanced than the preaching of John the Baptist.

Which one was the correct one in regards to the first coming of Jesus Christ?

 

[The Light]

The book of Revelation is not a series of time loops. That is just another misinformation thought process, from some human's imagination, given mostly as an excuse and not a credible reason against chronological understanding.

Read this.

Gen 7
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Ok. How many floods were there? How many times did Noah enter the ark with the animals.? There is one flood and Noah entered the ark with the animals once and yet we are told the story 3 times, with different information. Revelation is written just like this. There is only one wrath of God but you are presented two different stories of the wrath, once in the trumpets and once in the vials. Same thing with the tribulation that is OVER at the 6th seal coming of Jesus. So you get one version in the seals and you get another version of the seals in Rev 13 and 14. The coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14 is the same coming of Jesus that you see at the 6th seal, is the same coming of Jesus that you see in Matthew 24.

There are no timeloops. The story starts with the tribulation with the opening of the seals. The tribulation is over and Jesus comes at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The trumpets are the wrath of God? The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is finished when the 7th angel begins to sound.

Rev 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Christ has returned and set up His kingdom on earth.

So the story is over. Then in Rev 13 you get another version of the story with more information, just the same as you do in Gen 7. Noah only entered the ark with the animals one time and it only flooded one time, but each time the story is told there is more information.

So we can see the Great Tribulation in Rev 14:
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Just as you can see the Great Tribulation in the seals.
Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And we get a confirmation that it is the great tribulation being talked about in Rev 6 by what we are told in Rev 7

Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Then you see the coming of Jesus in the 6th seal, just as you see the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14. After the coming of Jesus in Rev 14, the wrath begins, just like in Rev 6.

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So, there are no time loops. You just need to understand what you are reading and apply common sense and logic. The story is told and the wrath of Gods ends at the 7th trumpet. Then the story is told again with different information, just like Genesis 7.

 

[The Light]

I am using common sense and many other Scriptures throughout the Bible.

You have not even given a reasonable fact why the 14th chapter goes into a time loop.

Sure I have. You are just having trouble accepting the fact that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom. Armageddon is over and what you are looking at in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.

The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th Seals. Revelation 14 would not put them back to a time prior to them being sealed.

You only think that they are sealed between the 6th and 7th seals. If you realized that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, you could see that Rev 14 occurs in the seals. If they are redeemed from the earth in Rev 14 BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION, then you would realize that they have to be sealed before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal.

Also, you see the harvest in Rev 7, the twelve tribes are the 1st fruits of the earthly part of that harvest. That means they are part of the great multitude and do no go through the wrath of God, (even though everyone thinks they are sealed to go through the wrath of God.) None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure I have. You are just having trouble accepting the fact that when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, at the 7th trumpet, Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom. Armageddon is over and what you are looking at in Rev 13 and 14 occurs in the seals.


You only think that they are sealed between the 6th and 7th seals. If you realized that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, you could see that Rev 14 occurs in the seals. If they are redeemed from the earth in Rev 14 BEFORE THE GREAT TRIBULATION, then you would realize that they have to be sealed before the great tribulation which is the 5th seal.

Also, you see the harvest in Rev 7, the twelve tribes are the 1st fruits of the earthly part of that harvest. That means they are part of the great multitude and do no go through the wrath of God, (even though everyone thinks they are sealed to go through the wrath of God.) None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

And you just claimed there is no pre-trib rapture.

You claim the church, Israel, the Nations, and those who take the mark during Satan's 42 months is the exact same period of time, all ending in the Second Coming. There is no pre-trib removal. All are removed post the tribulation. John just gives a different version of the events to point out the tribulation happens first, and then all are removed at one time.

I never said it does not make sense. That is not what John is telling us. God deals with the church in the Seals, then the church is removed. After the Second Coming, Christ sits on a throne in Jerusalem. During the 6 Trumpets, God deals with Israel. After Israel is removed, God deals with the Nations in the 7 Thunders. Then the end of the final harvest is declared at the 7th Trumpet.

Then there may or may not be 42 months of abomination and desolation. But it will not be a reality until that point in time. It may never happen.

 

[The Light]

And you just claimed there is no pre-trib rapture.

No, I did not. The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel is the seals. The Church is gone before the seals are opened, so no I have not claimed there is no pre trib rapture. There is absolutely a pre 70th week rapture. It is only when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in that part of Israel will have it's eyes opened.

You claim the church, Israel, the Nations, and those who take the mark during Satan's 42 months is the exact same period of time, all ending in the Second Coming. There is no pre-trib removal. All are removed post the tribulation. John just gives a different version of the events to point out the tribulation happens first, and then all are removed at one time.

As I said, the Church is removed BEFORE the seals are opened. They are the kings and priests of Rev 5. God then turns His attention to His Chosen.
The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church.
Dan 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Part of Israel, THE SEED OF THE WOMAN, has it's eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The gathering is from heaven and earth
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

and is before the wrath of God.

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

God deals with the church in the Seals, then the church is removed.

No. God deals with the Church BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the tribulation and the time of Jacobs trouble. The seals are when God deals with Israel.
I already showed you that the 144,000 are sealed BEFORE the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. We can prove that by the fact the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE that the great tribulation.(which I have already showed you.)

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal the angels gather the Church from heaven and it is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured from the earth at the 6th seal. We can prove that by Rev 15. So the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14. Who gets raptured from the earth at this time? The ones that got victory over the beast by the blood of the Lamb during the tribulation. And we know the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Those that are raptured at the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal are singing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes across the earth.

They are the second harvest. The fig tree has two harvests.

God's people are not appointed to wrath. The Church is removed before the seals are opened. The twelve tribes across the earth are removed at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. So the 12 tribes across the earth are removed before the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It shows you that the Church is in heaven before the seals are open. The Church is not on earth for the tribulation.

It never portrays the church with immortal bodies in heaven before the seals are open. When the fifth seal is opened John indicated that he saw "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.". He only saw their souls because they did not have their immortal bodies yet.

Correct. But I don't think you understand that that coming occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God begins. The 1st trumpet is the beginning of wrath and the 7th trumpet is the end of wrath.

I don't think you understand that Paul taught that we aren't going to be caught up to meet Christ until the final wrath of God occurs. That is what he taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:6 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Yes, I think that is an excellent argument to make. I don't think you will be able to keep up, but I'll give it a whirl. The fig tree has two harvests. The first harvest will be the Church. Pentecost is the first harvest feast and is associated with the first trump. The Church will likely be raptured on Pentecost. Then in the 70th week of Daniel, the seals, God turns His attention to the Jews, that is where there is 144,000 from the 12 tribes that are first fruits of the second harvest. The LAST DAY is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The second harvest feast is the Feast of Trumpets and the last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets. After the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the wrath of God begins.
Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
You think that the second coming happens at the end of the vials when it really happens at the 6th seal. Until you understand that, you are completey lost

Until you are able to have a doctrine that someone besides yourself can actually make any sense out of, you are completely lost. The truth is not nearly as convoluted as you make it out to be. If it's true then we all should be able to understand it, but I doubt that anyone besides you can make any sense out of what you're saying here. I believe your view is so off base and convoluted that it makes it impossible for us to have a fruitful discussion. So, I don't have any more to say to you about this at this point.

 

[The Light]

It never portrays the church with immortal bodies in heaven before the seals are open. When the fifth seal is opened John indicated that he saw "the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.". He only saw their souls because they did not have their immortal bodies yet.

What you are looking at in the 5th seal is not the Church as they already have their new bodies before the seals are opened. What you are looking at is those that are killed in the tribulation period, the 70th week of Daniel. They will get their new bodies with the coming of Jesus and the harvest at the 6th seal, which is immediately after the tribulation.

I don't think you understand that Paul taught that we aren't going to be caught up to meet Christ until the final wrath of God occurs. That is what he taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:6 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

I don't think that you understand that the fig tree has two harvests. I don't think you understand that the Feasts of the Lord has two harvest feasts. I don't think you understand the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Likewise also, I don't think you understand that the coming of Jesus will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. I don't think you understand that one coming will be at the trump of God or voice of God and one coming will be at the last trump. I don't think you understand that the Lord Himself will come for His Church and that He will send His angels for the gathering from heaven and earth. I'll let you learn that before I continue.

Until you are able to have a doctrine that someone besides yourself can actually make any sense out of, you are completely lost.

The funny part is, I believe what is written. I don't need to make any nonsense up, like the Church has replaced Israel or that the 144,000 is the Church or that John Nelson Darby yada, yada, yada. Just read what the word says you will understand the truth. No need to make things up.

The truth is not nearly as convoluted as you make it out to be.

That gave me quite a chuckle, because I'm not the one making up the nonsense. When God says there are 144,000 from the 12 tribes, that's exactly what He means.

If it's true then we all should be able to understand it,

Yeah, I've seen how that goes. From what I've seen most experts are pretty clueless. If you want to understand Revelation you should start here.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

In summary, Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and the moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. Then the sign of the son of man appears and Jesus sends his His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal. So if you don't have Jesus returning in the clouds for some type of rapture, you might as throw out all that you think you know and start over.

but I doubt that anyone besides you can make any sense out of what you're saying here.

Well, I'll have to agree with you here. You are correct. From what I can see, they are too busy making things up so because they can't understand what is written. If you can't understand what is clearly written, skip it for now. But, stop making things up to make it work. So if you can't understand what I believe, you just can't understand what is written.

I believe your view is so off base and convoluted that it makes it impossible for us to have a fruitful discussion.

LOL. Most have made up so much nonsense because they can't accept what is written, that they have convoluted themselves.

So, I don't have any more to say to you about this at this point.

Ok. Go ask the blind man what He sees and walk in that direction.

In summary. If you don't have Jesus returning in the clouds and sending His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal, you are starting in the dark. It's not what I believe, it is what is written. If you can't see that, you can't see that.

 

[ewq1938]

In summary, Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and the moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. Then the sign of the son of man appears and Jesus sends his His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal.

What if someone said it occurs at Matthew 24?

 

[The Light]

What if someone said it occurs at Matthew 24?

It does occur at Matthew 24. However, Jesus told us about end times in Matthew 24 and John told us about end times in Revelation. It would be wise to believe they should be in agreement. That would mean that the coming of Jesus where He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

 

[ewq1938]

It does occur at Matthew 24.

It didn't occur when he spoke about it.

However, Jesus told us about end times in Matthew 24 and John told us about end times in Revelation. It would be wise to believe they should be in agreement. That would mean that the coming of Jesus where He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Nope. It's wise to recognize that in both passages, the second coming is DESCRIBED but it does not OCCUR in either.

 

[The Light]

It didn't occur when he spoke about it.

The seals have not been opened. The 70th week of Daniel has not begun. The pre tribulation has not happened. The wrath of God has not begun. No trumpets have been blown. I could go on and on.

Nope. It's wise to recognize that in both passages, the second coming is DESCRIBED but it does not OCCUR in either.

You never properly addressed Timtoflys point about the two witnesses and to my knowledge, you have not addressed the coming of Jesus in Rev 14. There are too many holes in the things you are saying.