The soon coming rapture?

[The Light]

It's you that doesn't.




Revelation 13 is within the 6th trumpet. The end of the Great Tribulation is shown in Revelation 11, again it's the 6th trumpet until the two prophets rise into heaven and then the 7th trump sounds.






Wrong. Armageddon happens after the 7th trump sounds.




I understand these things better than you do.






That's the 7th trump timeframe.





You are the one unable to understand. I know that Matthew 24 and the 6th seal are just descriptions of what happens at the 7th trump. No event happens in either passage. They are PROPHECIES of future events.

And yet you still refuse to answer what this is...BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Is this just imaginary and thrown in for entertainment purposes only?

It just messes up your timeline doesn't it. You have no answer as you have avoided the question, what, 5 times now?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me simplify it for you. If you think that you have replaced Israel you better study a lot more. Someone has sold you a bag with a hole in it.

I don't think that I have replaced Israel, but I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by that. So, what do you mean when you talk about replacing Israel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, I've seen how that goes. From what I've seen most experts are pretty clueless. If you want to understand Revelation you should start here.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

In summary, Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun and the moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. Then the sign of the son of man appears and Jesus sends his His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. This occurs at the 6th seal. So if you don't have Jesus returning in the clouds for some type of rapture, you might as throw out all that you think you know and start over.


Well, I'll have to agree with you here. You are correct. From what I can see, they are too busy making things up so because they can't understand what is written. If you can't understand what is clearly written, skip it for now. But, stop making things up to make it work. So if you can't understand what I believe, you just can't understand what is written.

LOL. Most have made up so much nonsense because they can't accept what is written, that they have convoluted themselves.

Ok. Go ask the blind man what He sees and walk in that direction.

In summary. If you don't have Jesus returning in the clouds and sending His angels to gather the elect at the 6th seal, you are starting in the dark. It's not what I believe, it is what is written. If you can't see that, you can't see that.

You said all that without even knowing what I believe about the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29-31, which is foolish. Why don't you take the time to find out what I believe before wasting your time going on a rant like that next time? I do see Jesus returning at the 6th seal or at least right after that at the 7th seal. The reason that there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because Jesus and His angels (and the souls of the dead in Christ) have descended from there at that point.

But, where I'm sure we differ is that I see parallels in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls while you likely see them all occurring in chronological order (all 7 seals followed by all 7 trumpets followed by all 7 vials/bowls). But, that makes no sense since, for example, the time of the dead being judged will have come already at the 7th trumpet (read Rev 11:15-18) and the dead are judged when Christ returns (Matt 25:31-46) and after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15). So, it's not possible that things continue happening on earth for some amount of time after the seventh trumpet.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't think that I have replaced Israel, but I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by that. So, what do you mean when you talk about replacing Israel?

Those that believe the Bible teaches that the church is the Israel of God, are falsely labeled as being in (Replacement Theology) the church has replaced (National Ethnic Israel)

Those that follow the Zionist teachings in dispensationalism are the group that keyed the term (Replacement) or (Replacement Theology)

Dispensationalism falsely teaches God has (Two People) Ethnic Jews and The Church, this is known as (Dual Covenant Theology)

A better term to describe the teaching is (Inheritance Theology) because that's exactly what happened, the Church inherited the covenants and promise given to Ethnic Israel through Jesus Christ Galatians 3:16, and became the Israel of God

The Kingdom was taken from National Ethnic Israel, and given to the Church who received Jesus Christ, the holy Nation, bringing forth the fruits

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those that believe the Bible teaches that the church is the Israel of God, are falsely labeled as being in (Replacement Theology) the church has replaced (National Ethnic Israel)

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I wanted him to explain his understanding of it in case it differed at all from the typical replacement theology false accusations that we Amils get accused of.

Those that follow the Zionist teachings in dispensationalism are the group that keyed the term (Replacement) or (Replacement Theology)

Dispensationalism falsely teaches God has (Two People) Ethnic Jews and The Church, this is known as (Dual Covenant Theology)

A better term to describe the teaching is (Inheritance Theology) because that's exactly what happened, the Church inherited the covenants and promise given to Ethnic Israel through Jesus Christ Galatians 3:16, and became the Israel of God

The Kingdom was taken from National Ethnic Israel, and given to the Church who received Jesus Christ, the holy Nation, bringing forth the fruits

Matthew 21:43KJV
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I agree. I'm already well aware of all this, but instead of making assumptions about what he believes, I'm giving him a chance to explain it instead of assuming he believes all the same things as what you're describing here.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I wanted him to explain his understanding of it in case it differed at all from the typical replacement theology false accusations that we Amils get accused of.

I agree. I'm already well aware of all this, but instead of making assumptions about what he believes, I'm giving him a chance to explain it instead of assuming he believes all the same things as what you're describing here.

This is not a fair assessment. This is just an erroneous judgment call.

Amil have to replace Israel with the church.

Amil do not allow the 1,000 years after the Second Coming where Israel is once again the chief nation among all nations.

All use a slightly off explanation. Paul said Israel was put on hold, until after the fullness of the Gentiles. This alledged dispensational argument is not just imagination. Amil clearly think the church has replaced Israel, because obviously the Second Coming is the end. That is what happened historically.

The correct dispensational view is that at the Cross, Israel (Jacob), those of Hebrew lineage would not have a kingdom until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. At the Second Coming Christ as Prince will set up an earthly kingdom. The last 1,000 years will be a Sabbath day, set apart and holy unto God. For 1,000 years those promises in Daniel 9:24 will be reality.

Amil just pretend everything is OK now, when definitely it is not.

Clearly even your brand of Amil does not deny a 1,000 years. You certainly think the here and now replaces what that 1,000 years actually is. If there is a 1,000 years and instead of Jesus ruling from Jerusalem over Israel and the whole earth, then certainly you have replaced Israel with the church.

 

[ewq1938]

And yet you still refuse to answer what this is...BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T KNOW.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Is this just imaginary and thrown in for entertainment purposes only?

It just messes up your timeline doesn't it. You have no answer as you have avoided the question, what, 5 times now?

I ignore stupid questions.

 

[ewq1938]

You said all that without even knowing what I believe about the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29-31, which is foolish. Why don't you take the time to find out what I believe before wasting your time going on a rant like that next time? I do see Jesus returning at the 6th seal or at least right after that at the 7th seal. The reason that there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because Jesus and His angels (and the souls of the dead in Christ) have descended from there at that point.

But, where I'm sure we differ is that I see parallels in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls while you likely see them all occurring in chronological order (all 7 seals followed by all 7 trumpets followed by all 7 vials/bowls). But, that makes no sense since, for example, the time of the dead being judged will have come already at the 7th trumpet (read Rev 11:15-18) and the dead are judged when Christ returns (Matt 25:31-46) and after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15). So, it's not possible that things continue happening on earth for some amount of time after the seventh trumpet.

It does actually. It's the dead in Christ that are judged at the 7th trump, not the unsaved dead. Revelation 2 and 19 promise a rule over the nations after the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

A better term to describe the teaching is (Inheritance Theology) because that's exactly what happened, the Church inherited the covenants and promise given to Ethnic Israel through Jesus Christ Galatians 3:16, and became the Israel of God

I call it removal theology because those who reject Christ are removed. No one is replaced. New branches get their own unique place not someone else's.

 

[The Light]

I ignore stupid questions.

The fact is, you have no clue. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is like nuclear bomb going off in your timeline. Your timeline does not work, and instead of admitting your total failure you just ignore the question and hope it goes away.

When you are ready to be serious and search for the truth, let me know.

 

[ewq1938]

The fact is, you have no clue. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is like nuclear bomb going off in your timeline.

It doesn't affect any timeline. You are mistaken and confused. When YOU are ready to be serious and search for the truth, let me know.

 

[Timtofly]

The fact is, you have no clue. The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is like nuclear bomb going off in your timeline. Your timeline does not work, and instead of admitting your total failure you just ignore the question and hope it goes away.

When you are ready to be serious and search for the truth, let me know.

Revelation 14 is an alternate ending.

Revelation 14 is the end of the 7th Trumpet, but without an extended 42 months.

It is not the time line of 42 months and then Armageddon.

It is the time line where 42 months and Armageddon will never happen. Revelation 14 is all of Adam's flesh and blood dead in the winepress of the Sickles instead of the battle of Armageddon 42 months later.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds the final harvest is over. The 7th Trumpet is Jesus as Prince confirming the Atonement Covenant. If all the redeemed have been harvested, then there will be no 42 months.

If more redeemed are found who will be beheaded during Satan's 42 months, then the Atonement Covenant will be taken away, and only abomination and desolation for 42 months. There will be no salvation by grace through faith. It will be either the mark of the beast or chopping one's head off. Those 42 months will literally be sheol on earth. The only way out is to cut one's head off.

God will remove mercy and grace during those 42 months. There will be no Holy Spirit. Only the 2 individual witnesses will be there to cause endless torment and misery on those with the mark. They will be persuading those still redeemed to give up their lives by beheading. That is the only way to remain in the Lamb's book of life. No one seems to grasp the utter abomination and desolation of these 42 months. Those with the mark will be individual Hitlers to see who can out do each other's wicked desires. The Tribulation of the 6 Trumpets will be the greatest tribulation against the redeemed, ie Jacob. But the horrors of Satan's 42 months will not be troublesome. It will be the normal human condition of depravity.

They will be so deceived, tribulation will be enjoyed and welcomed as blissful. Having fun and enjoying life will be considered torment. Revelation 14 and the winepress of God's wrath is the easy way out, without 42 months of utter desolation and abomination. God's wrath is not given during the 42 months. Satan's total control will be enough. But at the end of those 42 months, God's wrath will be poured out in the 7 vials. This wrath ends at Armageddon where all humanity will come to an end. If Revelation 14 happens, then Revelation 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 will not happen.

 

[The Light]

You said all that without even knowing what I believe about the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29-31, which is foolish. Why don't you take the time to find out what I believe before wasting your time going on a rant like that next time?

This was your response to my post.
"I believe your view is so off base and convoluted that it makes it impossible for us to have a fruitful discussion. So, I don't have any more to say to you about this at this point."
You don't think you can have fruitful discussion because you think I am so far off base that you are done talking. If you can't follow what I believe, you are not following what is written. I believe EXACTLY what is written. I don't make anything up like the Church is the 144,000 or Israel has replaced the Church or any such nonsense. If it is written, that is what I believe.

I do see Jesus returning at the 6th seal or at least right after that at the 7th seal. The reason that there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because Jesus and His angels (and the souls of the dead in Christ) have descended from there at that point.

This is just something that you have made up because you don't understand what is written. The dead in Christ are already in heaven before the seals are opened. Those souls under the altar are those of the seed of the woman that are killed during the great tribulation, just as is written.

But, where I'm sure we differ is that I see parallels in the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls while you likely see them all occurring in chronological order (all 7 seals followed by all 7 trumpets followed by all 7 vials/bowls).

Don't be so sure. I believe that the seals are in order and that the tribulation is over at the sixth seal with the return of Christ for the gathering from heaven and earth. Then the trumpets are the wrath of God and are in order. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet, just like it says.

But, that makes no sense since, for example, the time of the dead being judged will have come already at the 7th trumpet (read Rev 11:15-18) and the dead are judged when Christ returns (Matt 25:31-46) and after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15). So, it's not possible that things continue happening on earth for some amount of time after the seventh trumpet.

EXACTLY CORRECT. Your logic is spot on. When the 7th trumpet sounds the wrath of God is over. What you see in the vials is just another view of things that happen in the wrath of God. The trumpets and vials occur in the same time frame. So I think we agree on the point you made about the 7th trumpet.

 

[The Light]

Revelation 14 is an alternate ending.

Revelation 14 is the end of the 7th Trumpet, but without an extended 42 months.

It is not the time line of 42 months and then Armageddon.

It is the time line where 42 months and Armageddon will never happen. Revelation 14 is all of Adam's flesh and blood dead in the winepress of the Sickles instead of the battle of Armageddon 42 months later.

Man. You couldn't have made this up yourself, could you? Is this something some Church is teaching, cause this is a new one to me.

When the 7th Trumpet sounds the final harvest is over. The 7th Trumpet is Jesus as Prince confirming the Atonement Covenant. If all the redeemed have been harvested, then there will be no 42 months.

If more redeemed are found who will be beheaded during Satan's 42 months, then the Atonement Covenant will be taken away, and only abomination and desolation for 42 months. There will be no salvation by grace through faith. It will be either the mark of the beast or chopping one's head off. Those 42 months will literally be sheol on earth. The only way out is to cut one's head off.

God will remove mercy and grace during those 42 months. There will be no Holy Spirit. Only the 2 individual witnesses will be there to cause endless torment and misery on those with the mark. They will be persuading those still redeemed to give up their lives by beheading. That is the only way to remain in the Lamb's book of life. No one seems to grasp the utter abomination and desolation of these 42 months. Those with the mark will be individual Hitlers to see who can out do each other's wicked desires.

I don't get any of this when I read the Word. This is quite a story.

The Tribulation of the 6 Trumpets will be the greatest tribulation against the redeemed, ie Jacob.

The great tribulation is the 5th seal. The great tribulation is over with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, you know, Immediately after the tribulation of those days..........................................
Here is more proof that Jesus came and the Great Tribulation is over.
Rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

But the horrors of Satan's 42 months will not be troublesome. It will be the normal human condition of depravity.

They will be so deceived, tribulation will be enjoyed and welcomed as blissful. Having fun and enjoying life will be considered torment. Revelation 14 and the winepress of God's wrath is the easy way out, without 42 months of utter desolation and abomination. God's wrath is not given during the 42 months. Satan's total control will be enough. But at the end of those 42 months, God's wrath will be poured out in the 7 vials. This wrath ends at Armageddon where all humanity will come to an end. If Revelation 14 happens, then Revelation 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 will not happen.

Amageddon is over when the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...at the 7th trumpet.

 

[The Light]

It doesn't affect any timeline. You are mistaken and confused. When YOU are ready to be serious and search for the truth, let me know.

Ok, I'm ready. Can you explain what is going in Rev 14 when Jesus comes? How does that fit in the end times timeline?

 

[The Light]

Yes, I'm aware of this, but I wanted him to explain his understanding of it in case it differed at all from the typical replacement theology false accusations that we Amils get accused of.

I agree. I'm already well aware of all this, but instead of making assumptions about what he believes, I'm giving him a chance to explain it instead of assuming he believes all the same things as what you're describing here.

Thank you brother. Thank you for the opportunity to will tell you what I believe. I believe that we don't need to make things up to understand what is written. In fact as soon as you start making things up you are in confusion. You just need to read what it says and make sound logical decisions as you did with your explanation of the 7th trumpet happenings.

Fo starters, I do not believe that Israel has replaced the Church. I believe the plan is for both Jew and Gentile to be saved.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I believe the original plan was for the Jews (12 tribes) to be the first harvest. But they served other Gods and would not be the 1st harvest.

Hos 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. The fig tree has two harvests and Israel was to be the first harvest. But that changed when they served other gods and they would not be able to see that Christ is the Messiah. The Gentiles would see that Jesus was the Messiah and most of the Jews were blinded.

The Gentiles become the 1st harvest and that harvest will occur BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel. Lots of people wondering what will happen to the Church during the tribulation and they are not even on the earth, as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

Dan 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Part of Israel, the seed of the woman, will have its eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the harvest.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Part of Israel has its blindness removed and they realize that Jesus is the Messiah, and He has already come for His Church.

Jer 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

So, long story short... The fig tree has two harvests. One harvest will occur when it is like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood, even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel. The other harvest will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came, even as the 12 tribes will be gathered from the earth at the 6th seal, just before the wrath of God. (Those in the nation of Israel that flee to the prepared place of protection, will go through the wrath of God, fully protected. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath).

One coming, the Lord Himself will come. In another coming He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. One coming will be at the trump of God or voice of God, and the other coming will be at the last trump, blown on the feast of Trumpets.

So, I believe that there will be both Gentile and Jew in the fold. But the Gentile will be the first harvest and the Jew will be the second harvest. The Church has not replaced Israel, and never will.

 

[James Macbeth]

The Rapture might be from sunset August 11th unto sunset September 25th; the day, hour, or year no man knows.

But that is the season of the Fig tree, talked about by our Lord Jesus.

I will post more information later.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, I'm ready. Can you explain what is going in Rev 14 when Jesus comes? How does that fit in the end times timeline?

Which verses. Revelation 14 is divided into several different events.

 

[ewq1938]

Don't be so sure. I believe that the seals are in order and that the tribulation is over at the sixth seal

Then why does Revelation 11 show the end of the Great Tribulation at the end of the 6th trump? And why when the 7th trump sounds, we are told the wrath of God has come?

How does the Great Tribulation end in the 6th seal and end again in the 6th trump? How does the wrath of God start at the 6rth seal and also start at the 7th trump?

 

[ewq1938]

So, long story short... The fig tree has two harvests.

Some only have one.

https://www.hgtv.com/outdoors/flowers-and-plants/trees-and-shrubs/twig-newton-how-to-grow-a-fig-tree

"Some varieties produce one crop of figs each year, while others produce two."