The soon coming rapture?

[Timtofly]

In Revelation 11:18, John differentiates between those who are judged/condemned and those who are rewarded. It is unbelievers who will be judged. The word means to be condemned in that verse. In contrast to "your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name" who will be rewarded at that time.

We agree that Jesus will return at the last trumpet and that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet, right? Well, Matthew 25:31-46 shows both the saved and unsaved being judged at His return. So, you should allow scripture to interpret scripture for you and realize that Revelation 11:18 is referring to the same ones as the "goats" described in Matthew 25:31-46 who are condemned to "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". The dead being judged in Revelation 11:18 are the same dead being judged in Revelation 20:11-15.

Matthew 25 represents Israel living today. Many are sheep and many are goats. This is not the church who literally accepted Salvation by grace through faith.

This is Jesus as Prince after the Second Coming sitting on His throne during the Trumpets. The angels are gathering all of Israel out of all Nations. You cannot see this because you deny they will rule with Christ on earth forever. On this current earth for 1,000 years. Then on the New Earth. The church is in Paradise for the next 1,000 years, and comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

The church is not separated like sheep and goats. The church meets as a whole group, from all time in the air at the Second Coming. At that point they are forever with Adonai, the Lord God.

The judgment seat of Christ is not a sheep/goat judgment. It is a rewards judgment. It will happen at the 7th Trumpet celebration week. But the Second Coming, the 6th Seal has to happen first. The church is raptured, glorified, and settled in Paradise.

Then Jesus sets up his glorious throne in Jerusalem to separate the sheep from the goats. In between the 6th and 7th Trumpets, 7 Thunders sound. This is the wheat and tares harvest where all the rest of humanity at that time are separated as wheat from tares. This may or may not happen in a day. Depends on how many souls are left after the church leaves. If there is a revival and billions turn to Christ before the 6th Seal, more will be raptured than left behind. Of course idealist tend to not be as hopeful as optimist.

It certainly does not happen in an instant. Matthew 25 is not a metaphor for the rapture. The sheep and goats part is not a parable. Israel is just separated into two groups. One are designated as sheep to live forever on earth. The other are goats who spend forever in the LOF. This is not a one day process. One of the Trumpets effects people for 5 months. You cannot put that into a "blink of an eye" rapture, where people are separated like sheep and goats. The rapture removes the church. Then Jesus deals with His people, the house of Jacob. This is called the time of Jacob's trouble. This would be the time that is most troublesome, because souls are being harvest out of Adam's flesh and blood.

Not with bodies. That's something you're making up. It's only their souls that are in heaven, which is why John only sees the souls of the dead in Christ in passages like Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4.

Now who is being literal in a highly figurative book?

The souls under the alter is the whole body of the church covered by the Atonement of the Lamb. The 5th Seal is the entire church being glorified including those on the earth, because it happens at the same time in mid air.

John is not telling us their literal status. He is telling us their spiritual status covered by the Atonement not literal bodiless souls under an alter. Those people are currently walking around in permanent incorruptible physical bodies enjoying Paradise. They are not physically crying out in pain or anguish. That is a spiritual metaphor of how those in Paradise view the situation on earth. The putting on of white robes is the same figurative use of putting on immortality by Paul. Both Paul and John were describing the putting on of the spirit. It is not a body of flesh. It is a body of light. Putting on the spirit is over the physical body.

Jesus showed us on the mount of Transfiguration. When his body glowed like a star, the sun, a bright light, ie a white robe, but of bright light. A spirit from God comes to one on earth inward. But when we get our spirit it will be an outward putting on of the spirit. Moses received some part of that, and they had to cover his face it was so bright. Moses and Elijah appeared also on the mount, but we are not told if they were that way or not. They may be as the two witnesses of the OT. We were given no confirmation. Many only see the 5th Seal as literal, but it is figurative of much more than what you claim as literal. One has to get the literal point from other Scriptures.

 

[James Macbeth]

Matthew 25 represents Israel living today. Many are sheep and many are goats. This is not the church who literally accepted Salvation by grace through faith.

This is Jesus as Prince after the Second Coming sitting on His throne during the Trumpets. The angels are gathering all of Israel out of all Nations. You cannot see this because you deny they will rule with Christ on earth forever. On this current earth for 1,000 years. Then on the New Earth. The church is in Paradise for the next 1,000 years, and comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

The church is not separated like sheep and goats. The church meets as a whole group, from all time in the air at the Second Coming. At that point they are forever with Adonai, the Lord God.

The judgment seat of Christ is not a sheep/goat judgment. It is a rewards judgment. It will happen at the 7th Trumpet celebration week. But the Second Coming, the 6th Seal has to happen first. The church is raptured, glorified, and settled in Paradise.

Then Jesus sets up his glorious throne in Jerusalem to separate the sheep from the goats. In between the 6th and 7th Trumpets, 7 Thunders sound. This is the wheat and tares harvest where all the rest of humanity at that time are separated as wheat from tares. This may or may not happen in a day. Depends on how many souls are left after the church leaves. If there is a revival and billions turn to Christ before the 6th Seal, more will be raptured than left behind. Of course idealist tend to not be as hopeful as optimist.

It certainly does not happen in an instant. Matthew 25 is not a metaphor for the rapture. The sheep and goats part is not a parable. Israel is just separated into two groups. One are designated as sheep to live forever on earth. The other are goats who spend forever in the LOF. This is not a one day process. One of the Trumpets effects people for 5 months. You cannot put that into a "blink of an eye" rapture, where people are separated like sheep and goats. The rapture removes the church. Then Jesus deals with His people, the house of Jacob. This is called the time of Jacob's trouble. This would be the time that is most troublesome, because souls are being harvest out of Adam's flesh and blood.

Then how so you explain Matthew 12:41-42
The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

People will resurrect to be judged. Jesus says non Jews will condemn them.

 

[Timtofly]

Then how so you explain Matthew 12:41-42
The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

People will resurrect to be judged. Jesus says non Jews will condemn them.

Who is being a witness? Them or their testimony? Righteous people may appear at the GWT judgment as people are being judged for their works.

The GWT judgedment takes place outside of reality and creation. What goes on there is not bound by space and time. Any thing is possible. That does not mean Righteous people themselves are judged at that time. They are just called as witnesses at the proper time. Whether literally or just a holographic point was never detailed in Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not the full truth.


The word can mean positive judging or negative.


G2919
κρίνω
krinō
kree'-no
Properly to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish: - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
Total KJV occurrences: 114



Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined G2919 to let him go.

That's the opposite of condemning.

I'm not trying to claim that the word can only be used in the negative sense. I'm saying we can discern that because the judging of the dead is contrasted with the rewarding of "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great". Plus, we can see that the dead are judged in Revelation 20:11-15, so only doctrinal bias could lead someone to not make a connection between Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 20:11-15.

That's not the return but the day of the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ). No one is cast into the lake of fire at the return but the beast and False Prophet, Revelation 19.

But, the passage indicates that this will happen when Jesus comes with His angels. How is that not a description of His return?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

What reason is there, besides doctrinal bias, to conclude that this isn't describing His return? Matthew 25 is part of the Olivet Discourse, so what He said there was part of His answer to the question about His coming and the end of the age. So, the timing of Matthew 25:31-46 relates to His second coming/return. But, because of doctrinal bias, you place it 1000+ years after His second coming/return.

No,m at the return the saved dead and living are judged and rewarded. The dead are judged to life here:

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The first resurrection is to life, the second resurrection is to damnation.

But, Jesus indicated that those will happen at generally the same time. He said the hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be raised, not that the hours/times are coming when all of the dead will be raised.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because Israel is the Nation ruling over all other Nations during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus.

Where is that taught in scripture?

You claim Israel was set to the side, ie, replaced by the church in the here and now, and the church and Christ is currently reigning over all Nations.

No, I don't claim that. All you have are false accusations. Israel was not set to the side and I don't claim that as you falsely accused. There was a remnant of Israelite believers, as Paul said in Romans 11:5. Because of the shed blood of Christ, Gentile believers were grafted into the cultivated olive tree along with that remnant of Israelite believers and they are all one in Christ (as taught in Galatians 3:26-29). No one is replaced. Rather, all believers, Jew and Gentile, have been brought together as one.

That is replacing Israel in a future Millennium, with the church in an indefinite period of time, the here and now.

What are you talking about? We should be celebrating the fact that the blood of Christ brought Jew and Gentile believers together into one body, but here you are trying to separate them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 25 represents Israel living today. Many are sheep and many are goats. This is not the church who literally accepted Salvation by grace through faith.

That is complete nonsense. Are you somehow not aware that all people from all nations will stand before Christ to give an account of themselves? That is what Matthew 25:31-46 is portraying.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This is Jesus as Prince after the Second Coming sitting on His throne during the Trumpets. The angels are gathering all of Israel out of all Nations. You cannot see this because you deny they will rule with Christ on earth forever. On this current earth for 1,000 years. Then on the New Earth. The church is in Paradise for the next 1,000 years, and comes down as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

More nonsense that doesn't even deserve a response. I'm not going to waste my time refuting a belief that only you have.

The church is not separated like sheep and goats. The church meets as a whole group, from all time in the air at the Second Coming. At that point they are forever with Adonai, the Lord God.

I'm not saying that the goats are part of the church. Only the sheep are. This is a judgment of all people, saved (sheep) and lost (goats).

The judgment seat of Christ is not a sheep/goat judgment. It is a rewards judgment. It will happen at the 7th Trumpet celebration week. But the Second Coming, the 6th Seal has to happen first. The church is raptured, glorified, and settled in Paradise.

Wrong.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul indicated that all people, saved and lost, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Notice that it says "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God". That isn't just talking about the church. Paul was referencing this passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Even those who "are incensed against him" will bow their knee to Him on that day. So, your claim that only rewards will be given out at the judgment seat of Christ is false. The unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire prepare for the devil and his angels at that time, as Matthew 25:41 indicates.

Then Jesus sets up his glorious throne in Jerusalem to separate the sheep from the goats. In between the 6th and 7th Trumpets, 7 Thunders sound. This is the wheat and tares harvest where all the rest of humanity at that time are separated as wheat from tares. This may or may not happen in a day. Depends on how many souls are left after the church leaves. If there is a revival and billions turn to Christ before the 6th Seal, more will be raptured than left behind. Of course idealist tend to not be as hopeful as optimist.

More nonsense that only you believe.

It certainly does not happen in an instant. Matthew 25 is not a metaphor for the rapture. The sheep and goats part is not a parable. Israel is just separated into two groups. One are designated as sheep to live forever on earth. The other are goats who spend forever in the LOF. This is not a one day process. One of the Trumpets effects people for 5 months. You cannot put that into a "blink of an eye" rapture, where people are separated like sheep and goats. The rapture removes the church. Then Jesus deals with His people, the house of Jacob. This is called the time of Jacob's trouble. This would be the time that is most troublesome, because souls are being harvest out of Adam's flesh and blood.

And more nonsense that only you believe.

Now who is being literal in a highly figurative book?

I don't claim that the entire book is figurative. A majority is. We have to discern which text is literal and which is figurative. I believe you are very bad at doing that.

 

[James Macbeth]

That is complete nonsense. Are you somehow not aware that all people from all nations will stand before Christ to give an account of themselves? That is what Matthew 25:31-46 is portraying.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

More nonsense that doesn't even deserve a response. I'm not going to waste my time refuting a belief that only you have.

I'm not saying that the goats are part of the church. Only the sheep are. This is a judgment of all people, saved (sheep) and lost (goats).

Wrong.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul indicated that all people, saved and lost, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Notice that it says "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God". That isn't just talking about the church. Paul was referencing this passage:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Even those who "are incensed against him" will bow their knee to Him on that day. So, your claim that only rewards will be given out at the judgment seat of Christ is false. The unsaved will be cast into everlasting fire prepare for the devil and his angels at that time, as Matthew 25:41 indicates.

More nonsense that only you believe.

And more nonsense that only you believe.

I don't claim that the entire book is figurative. A majority is. We have to discern which text is literal and which is figurative. I believe you are very bad at doing that.

The goats are part of the Church. Was not Judas Iscariot a Disciple of Jesus until the bitter end?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The goats are part of the Church.

I couldn't disagree more. No one who is part of the church will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Was not Judas Iscariot a Disciple of Jesus until the bitter end?

He wasn't a true believer and was not part of the church. He proved that by his betrayal of Jesus.

 

[James Macbeth]

I couldn't disagree more. No one who is part of the church will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

He wasn't a true believer and was not part of the church. He proved that by his betrayal of Jesus.

Then why did our Lord suffer him?

Does not the wheat and the toxic rye grow together untill the time of Harvest?
And then separated?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why did our Lord suffer him?

Does not the wheat and the toxic rye grow together untill the time of Harvest?
And then separated?

The church represents the body of Christ which is made up only of true Christians. Judas Iscariot was not a true Christian and therefore is not part of the church.

 

[James Macbeth]

The church represents the body of Christ which is made up only of true Christians. Judas Iscariot was not a true Christian and therefore is not part of the church.

Then why did our Lord count him as a Apostle?

Matthew 10:2-4
The names of the twelve Apostles are these: the first, Simon, who is called Peter & Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee & John his brother; Philip & Bartholomew; Thomas & Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus & Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot & Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not trying to claim that the word can only be used in the negative sense. I'm saying we can discern that because the judging of the dead is contrasted with the rewarding of "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great". Plus, we can see that the dead are judged in Revelation 20:11-15, so only doctrinal bias could lead someone to not make a connection between Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 20:11-15.

When Christ returns the dead and living in Christ are rewarded and the unsaved living are punished. The unsaved dead are not punished at that time. That only happens at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) which is after the second coming in both of our doctrines.

But, the passage indicates that this will happen when Jesus comes with His angels. How is that not a description of His return?

Jesus comes with his angels to the area where the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) occurs. I suppose you do not know where that is? It's not the Earth...




Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

What reason is there, besides doctrinal bias, to conclude that this isn't describing His return? Matthew 25 is part of the Olivet Discourse, so what He said there was part of His answer to the question about His coming and the end of the age.

There he speaks of the end of the age before the last and final age occurs. It is a time long after his Earthly coming.

So, the timing of Matthew 25:31-46 relates to His second coming/return. But, because of doctrinal bias, you place it 1000+ years after His second coming/return.

Scriptural bias not doctrinal. Your doctrinal bias limits Christ to only talking about certain things but in my doctrine, we don't limit him that way. He is indeed talking about the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) and his arrival there.

But, Jesus indicated that those will happen at generally the same time. He said the hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be raised, not that the hours/times are coming when all of the dead will be raised.

If that were the only passage then that interpretation would be all we have but when we add in Revelation 20, there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves this. It does not say, "all the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" does it? That's how Amillennialism views it.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Hour there means "time" There comes a time when all in the graves will hear his voice. A time comes when all will graduate highschool. Does that means the class of 2020 graduated the same "hour" that the class of 2021 did? No.

If you do not include what Revelation 20 tells us, then you cannot understand the above verse correctly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why did our Lord count him as a Apostle?

Matthew 10:2-4
The names of the twelve Apostles are these: the first, Simon, who is called Peter & Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee & John his brother; Philip & Bartholomew; Thomas & Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus & Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot & Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

Remember, we're talking about the day of judgment here. What was his status after he betrayed Jesus and when he died? That is what matters here. Was he part of the church after he betrayed Jesus and when he died? I think he clearly was not. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said this about him:

Matthew 26:23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Clearly, that is not something Jesus would say about someone who was part of the church. So, your claim that the goats, which would include people like Judas, are part of the church is clearly false.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Christ returns the dead and living in Christ are rewarded and the unsaved living are punished. The unsaved dead are not punished at that time. That only happens at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) which is after the second coming in both of our doctrines.

But, passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 portray the unsaved dead as being cast into the fire at Christ's coming at the end of the age. Do you agree that Christ will come at the end of the age? If so, then what do you make of passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 which portray the wicked being cast into the fire at that time?

Jesus comes with his angels to the area where the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) occurs. I suppose you do not know where that is? It's not the Earth...

None of us know where that will be exactly. Are you implying that you think you know?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

This verse makes it clear that it can't take place in the heavens or on the earth. So, where else? It doesn't say.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

There he speaks of the end of the age before the last and final age occurs. It is a time long after his Earthly coming.

He was asked about His coming and the end of the age. Why would this verse (and the verses that follow) not be about that?

Scriptural bias not doctrinal. Your doctrinal bias limits Christ to only talking about certain things but in my doctrine, we don't limit him that way. He is indeed talking about the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) and his arrival there.

And He indicates that the GWTJ will occur at His second coming. Only doctrinal bias can keep someone from seeing that in Matthew 25:31-46.

If that were the only passage then that interpretation would be all we have but when we add in Revelation 20, there is a thousand years inbetween. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" proves this. It does not say, "all the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" does it? That's how Amillennialism views it.

It does not speak of the bodily resurrection of believers there. The word "zao" is used to describe them living and reigning with Christ. John does not say that he sees them being resurrected and then they reign with Christ. A different word than "zao" would be used to describe a resurrection, such as anazao, which is the word used to describe the rest of the dead living again after the thousand years.

Hour there means "time" There comes a time when all in the graves will hear his voice. A time comes when all will graduate highschool. Does that means the class of 2020 graduated the same "hour" that the class of 2021 did? No.

This analogy is ridiculous. No one would say a time is coming when all those in the class of 2020 and those in the class of 2021 will graduate. Those are two separate times with the class of 2020 graduating at one time and the class of 2021 graduating at another time.

If you do not include what Revelation 20 tells us, then you cannot understand the above verse correctly.

I include Revelation 20. I just don't interpret it the way you do. The way you interpret it contradicts other scripture. What is your resolution for this? You twist the other scriptures to fit your interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[James Macbeth]

Remember, we're talking about the day of judgment here. What was his status after he betrayed Jesus and when he died? That is what matters here. Was he part of the church after he betrayed Jesus and when he died? I think he clearly was not. Otherwise, Jesus would not have said this about him:

Matthew 26:23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Clearly, that is not something Jesus would say about someone who was part of the church. So, your claim that the goats, which would include people like Judas, are part of the church is clearly false.

Matthew 10
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: ...Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.... ...Behold, I send you out as sheep...

Sheep can become goats. Thus goats are part of the Church till judgment, then separated, once and for all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 10
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: ...Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.... ...Behold, I send you out as sheep...

Sheep can become goats. Thus goats are part of the Church till judgment, then separated, once and for all.

They become goats before they die. You think Judas was still among Christ's sheep even after he betrayed Him? Not a chance. That's nonsense. Judas was certainly a goat already at that point, so it makes no sense to act as if he's currently among the sheep and will only become a goat when Christ returns.

 

[James Macbeth]

They become goats before they die. You think Judas was still among Christ's sheep even after he betrayed Him? Not a chance. That's nonsense. Judas was certainly a goat already at that point, so it makes no sense to act as if he's currently among the sheep and will only become a goat when Christ returns.

Jesus said: . ...Behold, I send you out as sheep... He said that to all the Apostles, including Judas Iscariot.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said: . ...Behold, I send you out as sheep... He said that to all the Apostles, including Judas Iscariot.

I'm not denying that. I don't think you're reading what I'm saying carefully. What you quoted is something Jesus said before Judas betrayed Him. Once Judas betrayed Jesus, was he still one of His sheep? Not a chance. But, you seem to think he was still one of His sheep even after he betrayed Him and after Jesus said it would've been better if Judas had not been born. How can that be possible?

 

[James Macbeth]

I'm not denying that. I don't think you're reading what I'm saying carefully. What you quoted is something Jesus said before Judas betrayed Him. Once Judas betrayed Jesus, was he still one of His sheep? Not a chance. But, you seem to think he was still one of His sheep even after he betrayed Him and after Jesus said it would've been better if Judas had not been born. How can that be possible?

Judas Iscariot became the 1st goat and was separated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Judas Iscariot became the 1st goat and was separated.

What do you mean by that exactly? Before, you were trying to say that Matthew 25:31-46 is a description of the church being separated into sheep and goats. But, goats are not part of the church. Only the sheep are. So, can you see now that your claim was wrong and that Matthew 25:31-46 is not just talking about the church, which is represented by the sheep, but also the lost like Judas who are not part of the church and are represented by the goats?