The Sweet and bitter little book of Revelation 10

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CoreIssue

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="Davy, post: 491806, member: 7759"]Christ's Revelation was written for all Churches, but historically given to the seven Churches in Asia (Minor) through Apostle John. Your trying to create an argument over that simple fact addressed in Revelation 1 when I only presented the Biblical fact.

Try again. From the rapture/revealing of the AC there is not a single mention of church or Christian on the earth.

The believers are now tribulation saints and Israel.

Why go to such lengths to teach something to people who will not be Here?

The characteristics of the seven Churches Jesus gave each a Message to is how five of them had problems in them, while two had none. The dispensationalist attempt to create Church ages means that there had to be at least two Church ages where no Christian Church had problems within it, simply because the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia Jesus had no problem with. There has never been an era when no Christian Church was free of problems. Even in Apostle Paul's day he had to continually rebuke wrong that some brethren were doing, and warned after his leaving there would be wolves creeping in dividing and seeking to draw disciples unto themselves. Apostasy is something the Christian Church has had to deal with since the time of Acts.

We do not believe each church is the only church during the age. It is the dominant church during that age.

Philadelphia is the sixth church, the rapture church. It coexists with the seventh church, which will be spit out into the trib.

Before you can attack what we believe you first need to know and understand what we believe.

If you disagree with what I said about Rev.10, then you're really disagreeing with the actual Rev.10 chapter itself, simply because it clearly states that when the 7th angel sounds, what God gave His OT prophets to prophesy (which included the events of the end and Christ's 2nd coming also), is all fulfilled. That makes the timeline to mean the start of Christ's future Millennial reign with His elect. Zechariah 14 shows the day of Jesus' 2nd coming and beginning de facto reign in Jerusalem over all nations.

The church won't be here during any seal, trumpet or bowl.

The MK is after the second coming which is after the seventh bowl.
 

Davy

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Try again. From the rapture/revealing of the AC there is not a single mention of church or Christian on the earth.

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


That warning Jesus gives to His Church... which are still on earth at that point, is on the 6th Vial timing by the way. Jesus coming "as a thief" is in reference to what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the coming "day of the Lord", which Peter shows emphatically in 2 Peter 3:10 is on the LAST DAY of this world, with God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth. The "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" was preached to ALL of Christ's Church, not just for some 'tribulation saints' idea which pre-trib doctors have created.

Why go to such lengths to teach something to people who will not be Here?

If Johnny jumps off the bridge, does that mean you have to?

We do not believe each church is the only church during the age. It is the dominant church during that age.

Philadelphia is the sixth church, the rapture church. It coexists with the seventh church, which will be spit out into the trib.

Before you can attack what we believe you first need to know and understand what we believe.

No need to try and school me on the doctrine you hold to, I'm well aware of what all it teaches. It's called Dispensationalism, and was another idea John Darby in 1830's Great Britain started, in order to try and create more weight for the pre-trib rapture theory.

What you don't appear to understand about our Lord Jesus' seven Messages, is that His Messages to the two Churches He had no problem with represent His very elect. That's why He had no problem with those two. The other five all had problems, though He did not rebuke everyone in those five Churches, but told those who weren't guilty to hold fast until His return. Until His return? That means all the way up to His 2nd coming. His command to be overcomers to those Churches, waiting for Him and staying faithful, is covering the time all the way... up to His return. So how can some man divide those Messages into eras of history? It's confusion, and that's what Dispensationalism is.

The two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia represent Christ's very elect, because they are given to understand something which Jesus mentioned only to them, and not to the other five Churches. I won't go into it here, but only those given to understand will see it. And it is a matter which Apostles Paul, Peter, John, especially our Lord Jesus, and the OT prophets all taught about. It is why those two Church Messages have always... been into 'dominant' effect for Christ's very elect since the inception of His Church.


The church won't be here during any seal, trumpet or bowl.

The MK is after the second coming which is after the seventh bowl.

Of course my Lord Jesus showed how wrong you are about that in the Rev.16:15 verse with His coming "as a thief", but I know you won't listen to Him there, but instead will default to the pre-trib rapture lie.
 

CoreIssue

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="Davy, post: 491834, member: 7759"]Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV


That warning Jesus gives to His Church... which are still on earth at that point, is on the 6th Vial timing by the way. Jesus coming "as a thief" is in reference to what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about the coming "day of the Lord", which Peter shows emphatically in 2 Peter 3:10 is on the LAST DAY of this world, with God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth. The "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" was preached to ALL of Christ's Church, not just for some 'tribulation saints' idea which pre-trib doctors have created.

If Johnny jumps off the bridge, does that mean you have to?


There are three thief in the night situations in the bible. The rapture, which this is a warning about, it does not say the church be here at this time. 2 Peter is 1000 years after the second coming at the end of the MK.

No need to try and school me on the doctrine you hold to, I'm well aware of what all it teaches. It's called Dispensationalism, and was another idea John Darby in 1830's Great Britain started, in order to try and create more weight for the pre-trib rapture theory.

Again you do not know which are talking about. It existed long before Darby.

What you don't appear to understand about our Lord Jesus' seven Messages, is that His Messages to the two Churches He had no problem with represent His very elect. That's why He had no problem with those two. The other five all had problems, though He did not rebuke everyone in those five Churches, but told those who weren't guilty to hold fast until His return. Until His return? That means all the way up to His 2nd coming.

No it does not. Read the seventh church. Those that do not heed the warnings will be spit out into the trib.
His command to be overcomers to those Churches, waiting for Him and staying faithful, is covering the time all the way... up to His return. So how can some man divide those Messages into eras of history? It's confusion, and that's what Dispensationalism is.

I studied history and a most assuredly agree with that that time periods during the church age.

The two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia represent Christ's very elect, because they are given to understand something which Jesus mentioned only to them, and not to the other five Churches. I won't go into it here, but only those given to understand will see it.

They will only see that the 6th church his promise to rapture and no others are.
And it is a matter which Apostles Paul, Peter, John, especially our Lord Jesus, and the OT prophets all taught about.
It is why those two Church Messages have always... been into 'dominant' effect for Christ's very elect since the inception of His Church.

One churches is promised rapture and one is promised an injection.


Of course my Lord Jesus showed how wrong you are about that in the Rev.16:15 verse with His coming "as a thief", but I know you won't listen to Him there, but instead will default to the pre-trib rapture lie.[/QUOTE]
 

Trekson

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The bible never claims he is coming as a thief for the "Church", that is referring to the unsaved world. 1Thess.5:4 - "But ye brethren are not in darkness, that that day shall overtake you as a thief."
 

Davy

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There are three thief in the night situations in the bible. The rapture, which this is a warning about, it does not say the church be here at this time. 2 Peter is 1000 years after the second coming at the end of the MK.

Jesus gave the thief metaphor in Matthew 24:43 and Luke 12:39 applied to the day of His coming being a surprise to those who do not watch. That also is Apostle Paul's theme in 1 Thessalonians 5 where he said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". And then Paul revealed with that the event of "sudden destruction" coming upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 described God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that same "day of the Lord".

Thus, the following events all occur on that "day of the Lord" as written:

a) deceived saying, "Peace and safety" when they are surprised
b) a "sudden destruction" comes upon them
c) God's consuming fire burns the elements of man's works off the earth
d) that day comes "as a thief in the night"

So the conclusive timing of the thief breaking in that our Lord Jesus compared His coming to, includes ALL of those above events on that same day.

Therefore, that day will end the time of "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned of, not be the start of it like the false pre-trib rapture doctrine preaches for the "day of the Lord". Also, the pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly preaches that Jesus comes "as a thief" to rapture the Church PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation". Both Paul, Peter, and our Lord Jesus linked the day of His coming to judge this present world with the "as a thief" metaphor. That day is the last day... of this present world, not the time prior to the great tribulation which pre-trib falsely preaches.

Again you do not know which are talking about. It existed long before Darby.

The so-called "Church Ages" theories originate from John Darby, not from the idea of Biblical dispensations. Darby included the idea of Church ages within his own theory of Dispensationalism. That movement began with him, not the early Church fathers.

No it does not. Read the seventh church. Those that do not heed the warnings will be spit out into the trib.

I studied history and a most assuredly agree with that that time periods during the church age.

There is no such idea of those at the Church of the Laodiceans being spit out just to suffer the trib. That is only an idea you've been taught by pre-trib rapture preachers. Jesus' meaning of those He rebuked there being spit out is because of their not being hot or cold (spiritually), which means what? It means they won't make up their minds who they will follow. Each one of those seven Messages can be found applying to various Churches today. And there has been no time in history when one was more dominant than another.

They will only see that the 6th church his promise to rapture and no others are.
And it is a matter which Apostles Paul, Peter, John, especially our Lord Jesus, and the OT prophets all taught about.

One churches is promised rapture and one is promised an injection.

Of course my Lord Jesus showed how wrong you are about that in the Rev.16:15 verse with His coming "as a thief", but I know you won't listen to Him there, but instead will default to the pre-trib rapture lie.

Once again, the Church Ages idea is nothing but a theory from John Darby. All seven Churches in Rev.2 & 3 existed at the same time and geographically formed a circle. And just as all seven Messages applied at the same time then, so likewise they all apply for the Churches in today's time. It's a simple matter of looking at one's Church to find if one of those seven Messages line up, as all seven examples are out there today too.

What is most dangerous about the Church Ages theory from Darby is the possibility of the believer discarding any one of those seven Messages as no longer being in effect today. They are all... still in effect today, for all... Christian Churches.


Each of the seven Churches in Revelation are represented by one of the seven "golden candlesticks" in the vision shown John. Jesus told John "the seven candlesticks" are... the seven Churches. That means a PATTERN IN HEAVEN, a Heavenly structure for the seven Churches on earth in Revelation. That pattern is still in effect all the way to the day of Christ's return. Revelation 11 reveals two candlesticks along with God's two witnesses prophesying during the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, i.e., the tribulation timing.

Rev 1:12-13
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
KJV


Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV
 

Trekson

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Jesus had John write to the seven churches to maintain His message and to assure its continuance for future generations. Imagine if there was only one copy and that got destroyed?? Davy isn't wrong about Darby and pretrib, and I agree that the seven churches do not in any way represent church ages, however, we can consider the early church fathers as indeed believing in a rapture but their timing would mostly be called post great trib.
 
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CoreIssue

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Jesus gave the thief metaphor in Matthew 24:43 and Luke 12:39 applied to the day of His coming being a surprise to those who do not watch. That also is Apostle Paul's theme in 1 Thessalonians 5 where he said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". And then Paul revealed with that the event of "sudden destruction" coming upon the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety". Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 described God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth on that same "day of the Lord".

Thus, the following events all occur on that "day of the Lord" as written:

a) deceived saying, "Peace and safety" when they are surprised
b) a "sudden destruction" comes upon them
c) God's consuming fire burns the elements of man's works off the earth
d) that day comes "as a thief in the night"

So the conclusive timing of the thief breaking in that our Lord Jesus compared His coming to, includes ALL of those above events on that same day.

Therefore, that day will end the time of "great tribulation" Jesus forewarned of, not be the start of it like the false pre-trib rapture doctrine preaches for the "day of the Lord". Also, the pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly preaches that Jesus comes "as a thief" to rapture the Church PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation". Both Paul, Peter, and our Lord Jesus linked the day of His coming to judge this present world with the "as a thief" metaphor. That day is the last day... of this present world, not the time prior to the great tribulation which pre-trib falsely preaches.



The so-called "Church Ages" theories originate from John Darby, not from the idea of Biblical dispensations. Darby included the idea of Church ages within his own theory of Dispensationalism. That movement began with him, not the early Church fathers.



There is no such idea of those at the Church of the Laodiceans being spit out just to suffer the trib. That is only an idea you've been taught by pre-trib rapture preachers. Jesus' meaning of those He rebuked there being spit out is because of their not being hot or cold (spiritually), which means what? It means they won't make up their minds who they will follow. Each one of those seven Messages can be found applying to various Churches today. And there has been no time in history when one was more dominant than another.



Once again, the Church Ages idea is nothing but a theory from John Darby. All seven Churches in Rev.2 & 3 existed at the same time and geographically formed a circle. And just as all seven Messages applied at the same time then, so likewise they all apply for the Churches in today's time. It's a simple matter of looking at one's Church to find if one of those seven Messages line up, as all seven examples are out there today too.

What is most dangerous about the Church Ages theory from Darby is the possibility of the believer discarding any one of those seven Messages as no longer being in effect today. They are all... still in effect today, for all... Christian Churches.


Each of the seven Churches in Revelation are represented by one of the seven "golden candlesticks" in the vision shown John. Jesus told John "the seven candlesticks" are... the seven Churches. That means a PATTERN IN HEAVEN, a Heavenly structure for the seven Churches on earth in Revelation. That pattern is still in effect all the way to the day of Christ's return. Revelation 11 reveals two candlesticks along with God's two witnesses prophesying during the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, i.e., the tribulation timing.

Rev 1:12-13
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
KJV


Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

You are trying to combine three different events at three different times to defend what you believe happens at one time.
 

Davy

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You are trying to combine three different events at three different times to defend what you believe happens at one time.

Trying to disconnect the events of the "day of the Lord" from the "as a thief in the night" metaphor is Bible butchery done by charlatans. And that's who the creators of the pre-trib rapture theories are, charlatans.
 

CoreIssue

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Trying to disconnect the events of the "day of the Lord" from the "as a thief in the night" metaphor is Bible butchery done by charlatans. And that's who the creators of the pre-trib rapture theories are, charlatans.

The day the Lord last around 1000 years.
 

Naomi25

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The day the Lord last around 1000 years.

According to which verses?
And...aren't you supposed to be, like, literal? If I did that, I'd have fingers pointed at me for 'non-literal interpretation'. 'Literally', shouldn't "the Day of the Lord" be a day, rather than a thousand years? And you get cranky at me for saying the thousand years isn't a thousand years!! :rolleyes:
 
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Trekson

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According to which verses?
And...aren't you supposed to be, like, literal? If I did that, I'd have fingers pointed at me for 'non-literal interpretation'. 'Literally', shouldn't "the Day of the Lord" be a day, rather than a thousand years? And you get cranky at me for saying the thousand years isn't a thousand years!! :rolleyes:

Hi Naomi, Actually, the word "day" can mean a long period of time in the bible. If one reads most of the prophecies regarding the "day" in both testaments it begins with the signs of the 6th seal, many them have obvious millennial age interpretations (like beating swords into plowshares, lion will lay down w/ the lamb, etc.) and some even speak of a battle that in time would come at the end of the 1000 years, so prophetically I agree with Corel on this one.
 

CoreIssue

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Strong's Number: 03117

Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
~wy from an unused root meaning to be hot
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Yowm TWOT - 852
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yome Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. day, time, year
    1. day (as opposed to night)
    2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
      2. as a division of time 1b
    3. a working day, a day's journey
    4. days, lifetime (pl.)
    5. time, period (general)
    6. year
    7. temporal references
      1. today
      2. yesterday
      3. tomorrow
 

ezekiel

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From Revelations 10 you have God sending a angel, that could be a man or woman also, from the story line that person has a story rather end time story. The person will give this story to John then John will then again relay that story. Now may be John past his flesh maybe not no one can prove either. On thing for sure this angel knows the thunders. Another thing lighting you will see be for you hear thunder. Liken to the 7 bowls, seals etc.
 

CoreIssue

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From Revelations 10 you have God sending a angel, that could be a man or woman also, from the story line that person has a story rather end time story. The person will give this story to John then John will then again relay that story. Now may be John past his flesh maybe not no one can prove either. On thing for sure this angel knows the thunders. Another thing lighting you will see be for you hear thunder. Liken to the 7 bowls, seals etc.

Where did you get that from?
 

Naomi25

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Hi Naomi, Actually, the word "day" can mean a long period of time in the bible. If one reads most of the prophecies regarding the "day" in both testaments it begins with the signs of the 6th seal, many them have obvious millennial age interpretations (like beating swords into plowshares, lion will lay down w/ the lamb, etc.) and some even speak of a battle that in time would come at the end of the 1000 years, so prophetically I agree with Corel on this one.

I'm not necesarrily opposed to "the day of the Lord" being longer than just a day I'm pointing out the wild inconsistencies in Dispensational hermeneutics.

As for "that day" itself, it's refered to in both testaments, a good many times in the OT it refers to temporal punishments against the enemies of Israel, or even against Israel itself for falling away from God. However, when we get to the NT, without exception the "day of the Lord" refers to the great eschatalogical climax of this age; the day of condemnation of the ungodly, but vindication and salvation of those who are in Christ Jesus. That describes the second coming, not a period of a thousand years, or even 7.

Again, I tend to believe a lot of those OT passages that speak of future peace and tranquility are, in fact, speaking of the new heavens and new earth.
 
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CoreIssue

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I'm not necesarrily opposed to "the day of the Lord" being longer than just a day I'm pointing out the wild inconsistencies in Dispensational hermeneutics.

As for "that day" itself, it's refered to in both testaments, a good many times in the OT it refers to temporal punishments against the enemies of Israel, or even against Israel itself for falling away from God. However, when we get to the NT, without exception the "day of the Lord" refers to the great eschatalogical climax of this age; the day of condemnation of the ungodly, but vindication and salvation of those who are in Christ Jesus. That describes the second coming, not a period of a thousand years, or even 7.

Again, I tend to believe a lot of those OT passages that speak of future peace and tranquility are, in fact, speaking of the new heavens and new earth.

It isn't Wildly inconsistent.

There is no way you can move prophecies from the MK to eternity.
 

Naomi25

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Strong's Number: 03117

Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
~wy from an unused root meaning to be hot
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Yowm TWOT - 852
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yome Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. day, time, year
    1. day (as opposed to night)
    2. day (24 hour period)
      1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
      2. as a division of time 1b
    3. a working day, a day's journey
    4. days, lifetime (pl.)
    5. time, period (general)
    6. year
    7. temporal references
      1. today
      2. yesterday
      3. tomorrow

I'm unsure where you get your reference from. Here's what I've found in regards to "the DAY of the Lord": Strongs No: 2250

hémera: day
Original Word: ἡμέρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hémera
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-mer'-ah)
Definition: day
Usage: a day, the period from sunrise to sunset.

So, I'm still wondering why I'm branded as a liberal when I take 1000 to be figurative...when we all know numbers can be (hello...7), but you get to do the same with "day" when for all intents and purposes, the word used for 'day' means just that. Do we see this word being used in other contexts in the whole of scripture? Yes, actually we do...but when it is used it's pretty clear in the context of how it's being used. "In those days"...plural. We can see below how it's been used.

always* (1), court (1), daily* (10), day (207), day's (1), day...another (1), daybreak (1), days (148), daytime (2), midday* (1), time (12), years (4).

We can see that by far the majority of uses are "day" and "days". Yes, "year" is in there too, but if we then go and look at the passages of "Day of the Lord", we can see that the word is being used as just that: "day".

All this to say: IF you take 'that day' to mean more than a 24 hour period, you are doing it figuratively alone, in which case; welcome to the club....perhaps you could stop pointing fingers?
 

CoreIssue

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I'm unsure where you get your reference from. Here's what I've found in regards to "the DAY of the Lord": Strongs No: 2250

hémera: day
Original Word: ἡμέρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hémera
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-mer'-ah)
Definition: day
Usage: a day, the period from sunrise to sunset.

So, I'm still wondering why I'm branded as a liberal when I take 1000 to be figurative...when we all know numbers can be (hello...7), but you get to do the same with "day" when for all intents and purposes, the word used for 'day' means just that. Do we see this word being used in other contexts in the whole of scripture? Yes, actually we do...but when it is used it's pretty clear in the context of how it's being used. "In those days"...plural. We can see below how it's been used.

always* (1), court (1), daily* (10), day (207), day's (1), day...another (1), daybreak (1), days (148), daytime (2), midday* (1), time (12), years (4).

We can see that by far the majority of uses are "day" and "days". Yes, "year" is in there too, but if we then go and look at the passages of "Day of the Lord", we can see that the word is being used as just that: "day".

All this to say: IF you take 'that day' to mean more than a 24 hour period, you are doing it figuratively alone, in which case; welcome to the club....perhaps you could stop pointing fingers?

I got it from
Interlinear Bible - Greek and Hebrew with Concordance
Using a verse that said day of the Lord in it.

Where did you get yours?

Strongs No: 2250 Is a different word from Strong's Number: 03117