The Sweet and bitter little book of Revelation 10

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Naomi25

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Well, I don't see the church in Matthew 24; and so don't see the church going through the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
Well...neither do I...as I see the GT, that is being spoken of in Matt 24, as clearly foretelling the destructionof Jerusalem in 70AD!
 

CoreIssue

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So...what you're basically saying is...you think the Christians of Western society could not handle what the Christians of the persecuted Countries are going through? Because...why? The Spirit within us isn't as strong as the Spirit within them? We got Christianity lite?

Here's the thing. You are absolutely right...on our own, people are incapable (or extremely unlikely) of enduring the threat of death and torture without wavering in their convictions. Their need to preserve their own life would, no doubt, kick in and take over.
However, when we speak of Christians, legitamate, born again Christians, we are talking about people who have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. That comes with certain promises and power. Like 'I'll never leave or forsake you'. Or 'I'll never loose anyone the Father has given me', or, 'he who has begun a good work will see it to the end'...and more.
These promises let us know that, just like the millions of matrys that have already stood strong under unimaginable torture and hardship, if or when our time comes to face such horror, we too shall stand up under it. How? Because we are not alone.

You're missing the critical point here. The Bible makes it clear that what happens in the Tribulation Period will be worse than anything that's ever happened on the earth before. Yet you're trying to compare them is equal.

As well, God does not put the church through his wrath.

Revelation 3:10 states quite clearly the Saints will not endure Tribulation Period time of testing.
 

Naomi25

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I'm not implying that God gives and takes back and yes it is on us to maintain our faith. Jesus did everything he needed to do on the cross. Seeing as salvation is an unearned free gift, it only becomes ours if we accept it. We can also reject it, choosing to live a life outside of God's will. A gift once received can be returned because the person no longer wants it or feels the need for it so no God doesn't take it back but with free will we can give it back.

So...I see Christ saying this:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” -John 10:27–30

And I see what you are saying as a direct contradiction. Who are we to determine beyond what the Father has decreed and given? Are we stronger than he? Are we more determined than He? This verse gives no room for our decison in this process. The Father GIVES those who he has GIVEN eternal life to, to Christ. And NO ONE (including ourselves) is able to snatch them away. The only other option given here is to suppose that we ourselves are "greater than the Father".
 

Naomi25

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You're missing the critical point here. The Bible makes it clear that what happens in the Tribulation Period will be worse than anything that's ever happened on the earth before. Yet you're trying to compare them is equal.

As well, God does not put the church through his wrath.

Revelation 3:10 states quite clearly the Saints will not endure Tribulation Period time of testing.

Although this touches upon subjects we have been over many times before, your initial point does not.
I would question, greatly, the wisdom behind anyone claiming persecution and tribulation could get any worse for some of our brothers and sisters out there in the world...either now or over the past 2000 years. Perhaps we might expect it to grow to be world wide, that is true, but that is not the point of conversation here. The point is what level of tribulation and persecution would or "could" make a true born again believer in Jesus Christ turn from their faith.
And I say that such an implication...that people just haven't been getting it bad enough yet, is to show a level of ignorance of what is going on in this world that does a horrific disservice to our fellow Christians who loose everything in the name of Christ.
Do you realise, that in North Korea, Christians are being dragged into the streets, with their children. When they, or their children do not deny Christ, they are forced to watch their children hung. Then they are then forced to lie on the ground in a row, and then they are rolled over with a road-roller machine...crushed to death.
One man in the Middle East tells of how a man and his son wouldn't denounce Christ, so the mob killed the mans son, chopped his head off and played soccer with his sons head right in front of him. Still, he did not deny Christ.
Throughout the years people have been put through the most horrific forms of torture, torment and suffering beyond what you could ever even think up, and still they claimed Christ as Lord.
To imply that they just haven't suffered 'bad enough' yet to deny him, is an insult to all those martyrs who are currently under the altar who wear white robes and are being told to wait, just a little while longer. Don't mock their memory.
 

CoreIssue

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Although this touches upon subjects we have been over many times before, your initial point does not.
I would question, greatly, the wisdom behind anyone claiming persecution and tribulation could get any worse for some of our brothers and sisters out there in the world...either now or over the past 2000 years. Perhaps we might expect it to grow to be world wide, that is true, but that is not the point of conversation here. The point is what level of tribulation and persecution would or "could" make a true born again believer in Jesus Christ turn from their faith.
And I say that such an implication...that people just haven't been getting it bad enough yet, is to show a level of ignorance of what is going on in this world that does a horrific disservice to our fellow Christians who loose everything in the name of Christ.
Do you realise, that in North Korea, Christians are being dragged into the streets, with their children. When they, or their children do not deny Christ, they are forced to watch their children hung. Then they are then forced to lie on the ground in a row, and then they are rolled over with a road-roller machine...crushed to death.
One man in the Middle East tells of how a man and his son wouldn't denounce Christ, so the mob killed the mans son, chopped his head off and played soccer with his sons head right in front of him. Still, he did not deny Christ.
Throughout the years people have been put through the most horrific forms of torture, torment and suffering beyond what you could ever even think up, and still they claimed Christ as Lord.
To imply that they just haven't suffered 'bad enough' yet to deny him, is an insult to all those martyrs who are currently under the altar who wear white robes and are being told to wait, just a little while longer. Don't mock their memory.

You are underestimating the scope and scale of what is coming.
 

Trekson

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So...I see Christ saying this:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” -John 10:27–30

1 Tim. 6:21 - "which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. Grace be with you all." This link shows many of the verses that show the reality of those having faith and departing from it.
Depart From The Faith Eternal Security VERSES Fall Away


Not as a contradiction but the fact is people can be deceived and believe a lie as though it was the truth. They will not know it's a lie until the end but they can have honest faith and trust in an untruth because they are not aware it is a lie. Look at all those who fall into cults. I don't doubt the sincerity of their search for truth, however the devil is a master of deception. I don't think "we" are considered as "no one"

And I see what you are saying as a direct contradiction. Who are we to determine beyond what the Father has decreed and given? Are we stronger than he? Are we more determined than He? This verse gives no room for our decison in this process. The Father GIVES those who he has GIVEN eternal life to, to Christ. And NO ONE (including ourselves) is able to snatch them away. The only other option given here is to suppose that we ourselves are "greater than the Father".
 

Trekson

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Corel said, "You're missing the critical point here. The Bible makes it clear that what happens in the Tribulation Period will be worse than anything that's ever happened on the earth before. Yet you're trying to compare them is equal."

I don't think it will be worse than anything that parts of the church have already experienced throughout the ages (Foxes Book of Martyrs comes to mind). I just think it will be on a much larger, global scale.
 

CoreIssue

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Corel said, "You're missing the critical point here. The Bible makes it clear that what happens in the Tribulation Period will be worse than anything that's ever happened on the earth before. Yet you're trying to compare them is equal."

I don't think it will be worse than anything that parts of the church have already experienced throughout the ages (Foxes Book of Martyrs comes to mind). I just think it will be on a much larger, global scale.

The Church is not in the Trib.
 

Naomi25

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You are underestimating the scope and scale of what is coming.
Really? That such suffering will possibly be world wide? That's about as wide as it can get, I believe. And am I underestimating the suffering of Christian martyrs that have already been...that currently are? There are only so many ways you can kill and torment a human person...prolonging their suffering before they actually die. And I believe humanity has, sadly, become adept in them over the years. If you think its 'gonna get worse'...again...I say you have not educated yourself on what our brothers and sisters have endured and, while perhaps not intending to, are indeed making light of what they have stood strong under.
 

Naomi25

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1 Tim. 6:21 - "which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. Grace be with you all." This link shows many of the verses that show the reality of those having faith and departing from it.
Depart From The Faith Eternal Security VERSES Fall Away

I think we must see this verse as it really is: "some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith."
All of those nominal Christians, those who cry 'Lord, Lord' at the end, will tell you even now that they believe, that they are Christians. They profess to the faith. They might even believe it themselves and not be trying to deceive as wolves in sheeps clothing. But in the end, the truth will be revealed that they did not, in fact, have a true relationship with Jesus Christ...he did not know them.


Not as a contradiction but the fact is people can be deceived and believe a lie as though it was the truth. They will not know it's a lie until the end but they can have honest faith and trust in an untruth because they are not aware it is a lie. Look at all those who fall into cults. I don't doubt the sincerity of their search for truth, however the devil is a master of deception. I don't think "we" are considered as "no one"

I don't understand this: are you saying that people will be deceived into the faith so that they can then fall away? That makes no sense. Are you saying that they will be deceived into falling away from the true faith? But what about when Jesus says that the Antichrist will come with signs and wonders to deceive IF POSSIBLE, the elect....we are promised we can rest in Christ's protection.
I simply do not believe there is any scripture that outright states that anyone who truly belongs to Christ will be able to be snatched away or will even choose to do so on their own. Those who, for many reasons, do not really, may appear to, but as John says...we may know that they were not of us, if they depart from us.
 

CoreIssue

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Really? That such suffering will possibly be world wide? That's about as wide as it can get, I believe. And am I underestimating the suffering of Christian martyrs that have already been...that currently are? There are only so many ways you can kill and torment a human person...prolonging their suffering before they actually die. And I believe humanity has, sadly, become adept in them over the years. If you think its 'gonna get worse'...again...I say you have not educated yourself on what our brothers and sisters have endured and, while perhaps not intending to, are indeed making light of what they have stood strong under.

First of all Christians will not be in the Tribulation Period.

Next Revelation says two thirds of the world's population will die those seven years.

At the second coming all who took the mark of the beast will also die.

The mountains will be shattered and the islands sunk in the ocean.

The ships at sea will be destroyed.

Rome will be wiped off the face of the earth.

Locusts and disease will plague humanity.

I have no idea why you are a naysayer what the Bible says will happen.

As with the locusts, they will sting everyone but nobody will die, they will just be living in agony.

So can it get worse for Christians? No, because we won't be here.

Can it get worse for those left behind after the rapture? It will.
 

Naomi25

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First of all Christians will not be in the Tribulation Period.

Next Revelation says two thirds of the world's population will die those seven years.

At the second coming all who took the mark of the beast will also die.

The mountains will be shattered and the islands sunk in the ocean.

The ships at sea will be destroyed.

Rome will be wiped off the face of the earth.

Locusts and disease will plague humanity.

I have no idea why you are a naysayer what the Bible says will happen.

As with the locusts, they will sting everyone but nobody will die, they will just be living in agony.

So can it get worse for Christians? No, because we won't be here.

Can it get worse for those left behind after the rapture? It will.

No Christians? But what about those who come to faith after the Rapture? These believers who you call "Tribulation Saints"? Those that, for some reason, are found, in the eyes of God, worthy to suffer his wrath, where as, according to your doctrines, he would not pour it out on any other believer.
So...either we have a case of 'second rate Chrisitans', or the category for becoming a Christian has radically changed. The bible gives us absolutely no leave to believe coming to God or Christ changes in any way, for anyone at any time. So, we fall back to second rate believers. Which is also a highly unbiblical notion.
So...I'm not a naysayer. I don't deny things will get very bad. I'm just saying that things, for many people, are already about as horrific as you can get, physically and emotionally. And yet even as they suffer horribly and die, they still love Jesus.
And it doesn't, for the purpose of this conversation, matter about the number of the unsaved who suffer and die, as we are only talking about Christians suffering enough to turn their back on their faith.
 

CoreIssue

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No Christians? But what about those who come to faith after the Rapture?

They are saved by God just as people were before Israel, Gentiles during Israel and those in the NT that never heard about Christ or the gospel.

In your declarations none of them would've been saved.
 

Naomi25

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They are saved by God just as people were before Israel, Gentiles during Israel and those in the NT that never heard about Christ or the gospel.

In your declarations none of them would've been saved.

Is that so? Goodness...how careless of my...declarations.
I wonder if you could point back to such declarations, if you would be so kind?

But...putting that aside...You've just made a massive mistake...one that not even most Dispensationalists make. You are claiming that people who 'come to God' during the Tribulation, come in the same way Abraham did...essentially. Or, perhaps more accurately, Gentiles of that time, who, let's say 'converted' to Judaism...like Naomi, or Rahab. Placing their faith in the "God" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The huge problem with that is: these people will know Jesus. They will know of him, know what he did for them, and have a personal relationship with him. There is ZERO in scripture to state that things will revert back to how they were, salvational wise. ZERO to say that these people won't recieve the Holy Spirit once they believe upon his name to be saved. You are simply making this stuff up now.
 

Trekson

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I think we must see this verse as it really is: "some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith."
All of those nominal Christians, those who cry 'Lord, Lord' at the end, will tell you even now that they believe, that they are Christians. They profess to the faith. They might even believe it themselves and not be trying to deceive as wolves in sheeps clothing. But in the end, the truth will be revealed that they did not, in fact, have a true relationship with Jesus Christ...he did not know them.
I don't understand this: are you saying that people will be deceived into the faith so that they can then fall away? That makes no sense. Are you saying that they will be deceived into falling away from the true faith? But what about when Jesus says that the Antichrist will come with signs and wonders to deceive IF POSSIBLE, the elect....we are promised we can rest in Christ's protection.
I simply do not believe there is any scripture that outright states that anyone who truly belongs to Christ will be able to be snatched away or will even choose to do so on their own. Those who, for many reasons, do not really, may appear to, but as John says...we may know that they were not of us, if they depart from us.


Many members of the body are being deceived right now. Sincere Catholics who are not walking their faith according to scripture because they haven't been taught the right way, those who fall for the "prosperity" gospel and send those charlatans their hard earned money, those who follow questionable "healers" like Benny Hinn. Those who got so caught up in the "personalities" of Evangelist that when their human heroes disappoint them like Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Bakker, they lose faith and drift away. All our end times beliefs aren't true so at least, in one way or another, 2/3 of the Body are being deceived about end times. If you want to dismiss them as always "not being believers in the first place" then that's okay, I just have a little more compassion for them and pray that they will find their way back to the truth before it's too late for them.
 

Naomi25

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Many members of the body are being deceived right now. Sincere Catholics who are not walking their faith according to scripture because they haven't been taught the right way, those who fall for the "prosperity" gospel and send those charlatans their hard earned money, those who follow questionable "healers" like Benny Hinn. Those who got so caught up in the "personalities" of Evangelist that when their human heroes disappoint them like Jimmy Swaggert or Jim Bakker, they lose faith and drift away.

Yes, but this rather proves my point, doesn't it? These people are following false leaders, false notions, not Christ Jesus, not the gospel presented in scripture. They do not have a personal, saving relationship with Jesus. And so when things get hard, or inconvenient for them, they "fall away". Their 'faith' was in healing, or wealth, or promises of both, or in the clergy and practices and tradition of 'the Church'. But, while they may have 'professed' themselves part of the 'Christian' faith, they were not truly a Christian.


All our end times beliefs aren't true so at least, in one way or another, 2/3 of the Body are being deceived about end times. If you want to dismiss them as always "not being believers in the first place" then that's okay, I just have a little more compassion for them and pray that they will find their way back to the truth before it's too late for them.

Well, hang on now...this is veering off track somewhat. The conversation in question is whether or not 'Christians' who 'depart' from the faith were actually saved in the first place. It's not whether these people are a total right off and we should wave our hands and say there's no hope for them. And it's not about the various doctrines that we find IN the Christian faith, which is another matter altogether.