The Sweet and bitter little book of Revelation 10

[Naomi25]

Just a little English lesson here - apostacy - from Webster's - " an abandonment of a former allegiance" - "falling away" - (from Strong's) G646 - "defection from truth", "forsake" - Webster's - defection - "to desert a previously espoused belief/cause.

Regardless of the english lesson, my point still holds:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. -1 John 2:19

There are plenty of nominal 'Christians' who pledge their allegiance to their faith currently, who, upon facing the realities of the world, or coming up against a sin, or doctrine or truth they don't like, will simply walk away...'defect' or 'forsake', because their allegiance was to an idea, not to the Christ of the Bible.
English lessons, and the words behind them only have meaning when the people involved truly have a heart change. If that is not the case, all the words in the world can be the 'right ones', but still, that person is not a Christian.

What would cause many Christians to deny their faith? I have three possibilities and there may be more. Denying Christ because..1) an unwillingness to be a martyr or a misplaced desire to save a loved one from suffering. 2) Scientists claiming they have found the body of Jesus and have "proved" it with DNA evidence. 3) A visitation from seemingly advanced aliens because many Christians revel in the supposed truth that we are so special that God could not have possibly created someone else...ergo, no God. I believe the 3rd might be a possibility but they would be demons/fallen angels in disguise with the intention to deceive, something the devil excels at.

All these are interesting, but they dismiss one of the founding tenents of Christianity...faith. We have overwhelming faith that Christ came and died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and is now in heaven. We trust that history and science back up our faith, but when it really comes down to it, faith in Jesus is where it's at. And the bible tells us that faith, in point of fact, is actually a gift from God. Not only is grace...saving grace, a gift from God, but so too is the faith we have to believe. From the starting point of our believing in Jesus, to the redeeming grace that sees a heart change within us...it is all from God. The writer of Hebrews tells us that Christ then sees this faith through until the end (he is the founder and perfecter of our faith).
If, then, our journey of faith and salvation is so much in the hands of Jesus himself, how are we to say that mere suffering will turn us away? That DNA or aliens should? Could they cause us to question, to wonder? Perhaps. We are not perfect in our walk. But we the Spirit living within us, and he that is within us, is greater than he that is in the world.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Naomi, I'm not sure what world you're living in or perhaps you're exercising your faith to the limits but you need to take your mind off of what should be, to what is. I'm not speaking of those whose Christianity is only on the surface and I don't think the "falling away" is talking about the shallowness of peoples faith. Even Jesus is concerned about his elect, Matt. 24:24. Just because a person could "cave" at a life-threatening time doesn't mean they were shallow in their beliefs, it will most likely be because they were ignorant of even the possibility of, let's say, martyrdom that it catches them totally unawares. How many American Christian parents are preparing their young children or even the older ones for that possibility?

In some places where amillennialism and even premillennialism is taught, the subject of end times is avoided like the plague. Pretrib rapture believers promise a rescue so the majority of Christians won't need to be concerned of that possibility. If all these millions of Christians are expecting to be rescued, suddenly find themselves suffering or watching their children suffer because of their faith, they are going to feel lied to and misled and if they can't trust their leaders over this doctrinal issue then perhaps they were lying about the rest of it. All of the early church knew, from childhood on, that Christianity was a dangerous proposition and they could die for that faith any moment and they were prepared. Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyrs? If you have, do you think you could project that level of faith to this generation of Christians? Mind you now, I'm not talking of those who already live in dangerous areas for Christians like the mid-east, China, etc., because they are as prepared for that possibility as they could be. I'm talking mostly about the soft, fluffy American and European/Australian believers. Here's a favorite saying... If an army is told they will never have to fight, they will fail to adequately prepare for battle. Sadly, I believe that is the position of roughly 95% of the church in the wealthier countries.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi, I'm not sure what world you're living in or perhaps you're exercising your faith to the limits but you need to take your mind off of what should be, to what is. I'm not speaking of those whose Christianity is only on the surface and I don't think the "falling away" is talking about the shallowness of peoples faith. Even Jesus is concerned about his elect, Matt. 24:24. Just because a person could "cave" at a life-threatening time doesn't mean they were shallow in their beliefs, it will most likely be because they were ignorant of even the possibility of, let's say, martyrdom that it catches them totally unawares. How many American Christian parents are preparing their young children or even the older ones for that possibility?

In some places where amillennialism and even premillennialism is taught, the subject of end times is avoided like the plague. Pretrib rapture believers promise a rescue so the majority of Christians won't need to be concerned of that possibility. If all these millions of Christians are expecting to be rescued, suddenly find themselves suffering or watching their children suffer because of their faith, they are going to feel lied to and misled and if they can't trust their leaders over this doctrinal issue then perhaps they were lying about the rest of it. All of the early church knew, from childhood on, that Christianity was a dangerous proposition and they could die for that faith any moment and they were prepared. Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyrs? If you have, do you think you could project that level of faith to this generation of Christians? Mind you now, I'm not talking of those who already live in dangerous areas for Christians like the mid-east, China, etc., because they are as prepared for that possibility as they could be. I'm talking mostly about the soft, fluffy American and European/Australian believers. Here's a favorite saying... If an army is told they will never have to fight, they will fail to adequately prepare for battle. Sadly, I believe that is the position of roughly 95% of the church in the wealthier countries.

So...what you're basically saying is...you think the Christians of Western society could not handle what the Christians of the persecuted Countries are going through? Because...why? The Spirit within us isn't as strong as the Spirit within them? We got Christianity lite?

Here's the thing. You are absolutely right...on our own, people are incapable (or extremely unlikely) of enduring the threat of death and torture without wavering in their convictions. Their need to preserve their own life would, no doubt, kick in and take over.
However, when we speak of Christians, legitamate, born again Christians, we are talking about people who have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. That comes with certain promises and power. Like 'I'll never leave or forsake you'. Or 'I'll never loose anyone the Father has given me', or, 'he who has begun a good work will see it to the end'...and more.
These promises let us know that, just like the millions of matrys that have already stood strong under unimaginable torture and hardship, if or when our time comes to face such horror, we too shall stand up under it. How? Because we are not alone.

 

[Enoch111]

If all these millions of Christians are expecting to be rescued...

Was Noah expecting to be rescued from the Flood? Is God's wrath to be applied to His Church after Christ took upon Himself the wrath that was due to Christians?

Even Lot -- who was not expecting to be rescued -- was rescued from God's wrath. And Lot is called a righteous man (2 Pet 2:7) even though he chose to live among perverts, and even though he got drunk and had illicit relations with his daughters. The point being that God regarded Lot as a saint, therefore not subject to His wrath.

It is perfectly evident that you are unable to distinguish between the tribulations of the saints and God's wrath against sinners (which includes the strong delusion which comes upon the world when the Antichrist is in control during the Tribulation).

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2:11,12).

 

[Naomi25]

Was Noah expecting to be rescued from the Flood? Is God's wrath to be applied to His Church after Christ took upon Himself the wrath that was due to Christians?

Even Lot -- who was not expecting to be rescued -- was rescued from God's wrath. And Lot is called a righteous man (2 Pet 2:7) even though he chose to live among perverts, and even though he got drunk and had illicit relations with his daughters. The point being that God regarded Lot as a saint, therefore not subject to His wrath.

It is perfectly evident that you are unable to distinguish between the tribulations of the saints and God's wrath against sinners (which includes the strong delusion which comes upon the world when the Antichrist is in control during the Tribulation).

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2:11,12).

Ok, here's the thing. Dispensationalists say that this 'wrath' that is being spoken of here is not the wrath that comes upon those unsaved at the judgement seat, but more of a...uh...pre-wrath, wrath.
I'm just wondering how you prove that, please? This is a legitimate question. To me, it seems that the verses that speak of 'escaping the wrath' in the context of these end times events, are always in terms of salvation/damnation. But, if you are sure this isn't the case, can you please give biblically sound reasons and verses to prove such? Thanks.

 

[Trekson]

Was Noah expecting to be rescued from the Flood? Is God's wrath to be applied to His Church after Christ took upon Himself the wrath that was due to Christians?

Even Lot -- who was not expecting to be rescued -- was rescued from God's wrath. And Lot is called a righteous man (2 Pet 2:7) even though he chose to live among perverts, and even though he got drunk and had illicit relations with his daughters. The point being that God regarded Lot as a saint, therefore not subject to His wrath.

It is perfectly evident that you are unable to distinguish between the tribulations of the saints and God's wrath against sinners (which includes the strong delusion which comes upon the world when the Antichrist is in control during the Tribulation).

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2:11,12).

Heavy sigh, Enoch, no one said anything about the church undergoing the wrath of God. Yes, we are spared that. It is the wrath of Satan that the GT consists of. Rev. 12:17.

 

[farouk]

I got it from
Interlinear Bible - Greek and Hebrew with Concordance
Using a verse that said day of the Lord in it.

Where did you get yours?

Strongs No: 2250 Is a different word from Strong's Number: 03117

Good response!

 

[farouk]

Heavy sigh, Enoch, no one said anything about the church undergoing the wrath of God. Yes, we are spared that. It is the wrath of Satan that the GT consists of. Rev. 12:17.

I don't see the church passing through the tribulation. I don't see the church involved in the Matthew 24 account of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Trekson]

So...what you're basically saying is...you think the Christians of Western society could not handle what the Christians of the persecuted Countries are going through? Because...why? The Spirit within us isn't as strong as the Spirit within them? We got Christianity lite? That is correct, it's not about the power of the HS, it's about modern Christians expectations. I would guesstimate that 75-90% of those who say they are Christians understand nothing about Eph. 6:10-18 and spiritual warfare in general. They won't know HOW to access the HS's help because they've never been taught. The GT will be the fulfillment of 1 Pet. 4:12-18 and the bible also promises a "famine" of the Word in Amos 8:11. (when I say you, I'm not getting personal) When you are undergoing severe hardship and you pray for help and guidance but nothing comes, it seems like God has abandoned you, you pray and pray and get no reply. Will you endure during that time of silence? Will your faith sustain you in the hard times? Yes, there are many Christian warriors out there but God has given us all the tools we need to fight those battles, but if one is ignorant of how to do that, then they might fail. God gave us all these warnings for a reason and we can't expect him to bail us out if we ignored everything he's warned about in the first place.

Here's the thing. You are absolutely right...on our own, people are incapable (or extremely unlikely) of enduring the threat of death and torture without wavering in their convictions. Their need to preserve their own life would, no doubt, kick in and take over.
However, when we speak of Christians, legitamate, born again Christians, we are talking about people who have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. That comes with certain promises and power. Like 'I'll never leave or forsake you'. Or 'I'll never loose anyone the Father has given me', or, 'he who has begun a good work will see it to the end'...and more.
These promises let us know that, just like the millions of matrys that have already stood strong under unimaginable torture and hardship, if or when our time comes to face such horror, we too shall stand up under it. How? Because we are not alone.

 

[Trekson]

I don't see the church passing through the tribulation. I don't see the church involved in the Matthew 24 account of the Great Tribulation.

Jesus is speaking to the disciples as the fathers of his church, not as Jews. Events will begin there as Rev. 12 points out but things will quickly escalate on a global scale. Imo, when we see the abomination of desolation (the image from Rev. 13:14-15) is when we shall see the man of sin revealed and the GT will intensify for a short while. Once you see that there is no "tribulation period" just 7 yrs. of the 70th week consisting of many things and the GT is a short time period within the context of the 70th week, then it makes it more understandable, imo.

 

[Enoch111]

Ok, here's the thing. Dispensationalists say that this 'wrath' that is being spoken of here is not the wrath that comes upon those unsaved at the judgement seat, but more of a...uh...pre-wrath, wrath. I'm just wondering how you prove that, please? This is a legitimate question. To me, it seems that the verses that speak of 'escaping the wrath' in the context of these end times events, are always in terms of salvation/damnation. But, if you are sure this isn't the case, can you please give biblically sound reasons and verses to prove such? Thanks.

Let's take each thing step by step.

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ is for the judgment of the works of the saints. It is in Heaven, and it will result in either rewards and crowns or no rewards and no crowns. But salvation is not the issue.

2. The wrath of God is always a damnation issue. That is His wrath against sin and evil. However, for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ there is no wrath, only salvation: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1 Thess 5:9,10)

3. God's end-time wrath is displayed on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked through the seventh seal (seven trumpet) judgments. These also correspond to Daniel's 70th week, which consists of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) and the Great Tribulation (second 3 1/2 years = the day of the LORD).

4. The first six trumpet judgments are during the Tribulation ( which also includes the wrath of Satan against the Tribulation saints), while the 7th trumpet (seven vials/bowls) judgment is during the Great Tribulation, followed by the 6th seal events.

5. So in effect God's wrath begins as soon as the Antichrist takes control of the earth's inhabitants:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

And the dragon [Satan] was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.(Rev 12:17; 13:7)

[Another angel] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour [time] of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:... And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 14:7,9,10,19) [Note: this is also when God sends strong delusion]

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Rev 16:1)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (Rev 16:19)

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Rev 18:3)

AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION (SHAKING OF EARTH AND HEAVEN)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day [period] of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16,17)

 

[Naomi25]

That is correct, it's not about the power of the HS, it's about modern Christians expectations. I would guesstimate that 75-90% of those who say they are Christians understand nothing about Eph. 6:10-18 and spiritual warfare in general. They won't know HOW to access the HS's help because they've never been taught. The GT will be the fulfillment of 1 Pet. 4:12-18 and the bible also promises a "famine" of the Word in Amos 8:11. (when I say you, I'm not getting personal) When you are undergoing severe hardship and you pray for help and guidance but nothing comes, it seems like God has abandoned you, you pray and pray and get no reply. Will you endure during that time of silence? Will your faith sustain you in the hard times? Yes, there are many Christian warriors out there but God has given us all the tools we need to fight those battles, but if one is ignorant of how to do that, then they might fail. God gave us all these warnings for a reason and we can't expect him to bail us out if we ignored everything he's warned about in the first place.

I think you underestimate what constitutes a true Christian. "Will I endure during times of silence?" I already have. Not that I have suffered the sort of things that many of our brothers and sisters overseas have, but my life is not what you would call easy. And there are many times that God seems silent to me. But why on earth would I turn from God in moments of hardship? As Peter said, 'Where else would I go?' Turning from God would not bring me comfort, or make me stronger, or help me find strength, wisdom or anything else I am lacking in that moment. It would only make me feel even more empty and alone.
You see...when one truly believes that God is the absolute truth, and that Jesus came because he loved us, died for us, rose for us, it doesn't matter what struggles we go through. It doesn't even matter if we waver in our faith, questioning things for a short time, ultimately coming back to him. The change that happens within a person when they receive a new heart and mind is not one that can be undone. The Holy Spirit, once given, cannot be un-received. And even if fear plagues us up unto a horrible end, if we are truly saved, we will not abandon our Lord. That is why so many Christians have been able to endure such horrific ends. And plenty of them from our Countries too. Missionaires who go to spread the word, Christians travelling abroad. Christians who live in other Countries who cannot possibly have been taught anything like you suggest needs to be taught, but still stand under the persecution and death anyway. Why? Because it's the Spirit who 'teaches' and helps us endure in the first place.

 

[brakelite]

So...what you're basically saying is...you think the Christians of Western society could not handle what the Christians of the persecuted Countries are going through? Because...why? The Spirit within us isn't as strong as the Spirit within them? We got Christianity lite?

Here's the thing. You are absolutely right...on our own, people are incapable (or extremely unlikely) of enduring the threat of death and torture without wavering in their convictions. Their need to preserve their own life would, no doubt, kick in and take over.
However, when we speak of Christians, legitamate, born again Christians, we are talking about people who have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them. That comes with certain promises and power. Like 'I'll never leave or forsake you'. Or 'I'll never loose anyone the Father has given me', or, 'he who has begun a good work will see it to the end'...and more.
These promises let us know that, just like the millions of matrys that have already stood strong under unimaginable torture and hardship, if or when our time comes to face such horror, we too shall stand up under it. How? Because we are not alone.

Well said...I would add that the persecutions and tortures that came at the hand of the inquisators etc was unimaginably painful...yet they endured. God is absolutely capable of preserving His own.

 

[Naomi25]

Let's take each thing step by step.

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ is for the judgment of the works of the saints. It is in Heaven, and it will result in either rewards and crowns or no rewards and no crowns. But salvation is not the issue.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to this. I'll try to really go through it without prejudice.

Okay, I can see this in Rev 20:11-15. I will agree that in Revelation when we see 'thrones' it is always in Heaven, and that the passage tells us that those in the Lambs book of life are being judged according to what they had done.
I would perhaps hesitate about the salvational issue, however, and ask, or note: if one's name is found in the Lamb's book of life, rather than just in the 'other' book, where the damned are found, then does it not suggest to us that salvation is an obvious undercurrent here? Yes we are rewarded for our deeds, but it is to be rewards, not damnation and wrath because of the salvation that puts us in that particular book.

2. The wrath of God is always a damnation issue. That is His wrath against sin and evil. However, for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ there is no wrath, only salvation: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (1 Thess 5:9,10)

Ok. Yes. But...how then, do you distinguish between the wrath of judgement after the second coming of Christ (when they pay eternally for their sins) and that which Dispensationalists claim must take place in the 7 year Tribulation period? If eternal damnation is coming in the form of wrath, why the need for 7 years of earthly wrath?

3. God's end-time wrath is displayed on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked through the seventh seal (seven trumpet) judgments. These also correspond to Daniel's 70th week, which consists of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years) and the Great Tribulation (second 3 1/2 years = the day of the LORD).

4. The first six trumpet judgments are during the Tribulation ( which also includes the wrath of Satan against the Tribulation saints), while the 7th trumpet (seven vials/bowls) judgment is during the Great Tribulation, followed by the 6th seal events.

Putting aside, for a moment, how I see these judgments being fulfilled, as it differs from you...there's still nothing in Revelation to say when these things must take place.
So...I am unsure how this really impacts upon or strengthens the case of, linking the coming wrath to the Tribulation. Saying it happens in a certain time frame, and being able to point to it biblically is different - is there some biblical reference that you can provide?

5. So in effect God's wrath begins as soon as the Antichrist takes control of the earth's inhabitants:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev 11:18)

But hang on, this verse is saying that the time of the dead being judged and for the rewards being given to the servants had come! This is not talking about the Tribulation time, but after it! So...in that context, the 'wrath' that is being spoken about is not Tribulation wrath, but judgement wrath.

And the dragon [Satan] was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.(Rev 12:17; 13:7)

But...this is talking about Satan's anger upon humanity...upon Christians. This is not talking about God's wrath at all.

[Another angel] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour [time] of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:... And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 14:7,9,10,19) [Note: this is also when God sends strong delusion]

Here's my point with all this, and I'm not trying to be difficult, I just can't see past it. But...even here, we can quite obviously see that the judgement that is being spoken of is linked with the 'wine of the wrath of God', with the 'tormented with fire and brimstone'....this is eternal damnation language...eternal judgement and wrath language, not merely Tribulation language, don't you agree?

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (Rev 16:1)

And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (Rev 16:19)

I do know you'll disagree with me here, but....do you truly not see this as a declaration of the end, of Christ's triumph and return? And Babylon, that harlot city...again, you'll no doubt disagree with me, but...do we not, in a very real way...see that most cities are indeed, Bablyon? How many cities on Earth these days are God fearing cities? Which ones embraces godliness and righteousness? We have Islam flowing from numerous cities, Europe has ejected God long ago and the 'Western' nations are too busy killing their children and fighting about politics and race and gender to even think about God. We are all Babylon, and when Jesus returns, he will confront every city, every Bablyon, and the 'nations' will fall, drinking his wrath.

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe. -Revelation 16:17–21

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Rev 18:3)

AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION (SHAKING OF EARTH AND HEAVEN)
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day [period] of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16,17)

Revelation is a tricky one to consider the 'wrath' issue through. Mostly, I'd say, because you and I see it playing out differently...and by that I mean, you see the book as largely chronological, I expect, and I do not. And therefore, where you see the word 'wrath' appearing earlier in the peace and see it as proof that the wrath must fall on earth in the Tribulation period, I'd most likely see it at the end of that period.
I think what I was hoping you might cover, more, is the notion of wrath outside Revelation. There are references to it there, and I have heard Dispensationalists refer to those verses to build their case. I've never had the opportunity, however, to really be able to dig down and study why and how they see those verses and if there is any validity to them.

 

[Naomi25]

Well said...I would add that the persecutions and tortures that came at the hand of the inquisators etc was unimaginably painful...yet they endured. God is absolutely capable of preserving His own.

Agreed. It comes down to who you are relying on to get you through said horrible things? There is no way people could have endured being burned alive, eaten by lions, used as human torches, tortured brutally...and what's more...going willingly to such execusions, if it were under their own will alone, their own power alone. I don't suppose any of them looked forward it, or enjoyed it. Even Jesus sweated blood and was tormented by the thought at what he had to endure. But endure he did, and endure it Christians do. So...I don't buy that just because we've had it ridiculously blessed over here that the same God and same Spirit couldn't and wouldn't see us through the same thing. We're saved the same, love the same, determined the same and long to stay true just the same.

 

[brakelite]

One of my biggest arguments around the rapture theory is the contention (and many non-rapture proponents agree with them here) that after the final plagues etc have decimated mankind, that the church, which is in heaven, or has survived and is still on earth, is immediately spirited to Israel where they come under the rule of Jesus who is now enthroned upon the "throne of David", in the new Jerusalem. So what's wrong with that you may ask? Two main things.
1. The future arrival of that great city is not appointed to arrive until the time of the full creation of the new heavens and the new earth. It is associated with promises that all things are new, and old things are completely passed away. No more crying, pain, sorrow, or death. All these things cannot be throughout anytime during any 1000 year after the second coming, because according to dispensationists and those in support of an earthly millennium, there is still suffering...there is still rebellion...there is still unbelief...there is still marriage and death and birth...there is still reward and punishment...Satan is still around at the end to cause havoc and delusion...
2. The destruction and disruption of the entire planet immediately prior to the second coming is horrendous! According to Isaiah the whole earth reels to and from like a drunkard...like a cottage moved out of its place...does that mean it is now out of its original orbit...because if so life then is utterly untenable. Jeremiah says there are bodies strewn from one end of the earth to the other, that they are neither gathered nor buried, but like dung upon the ground...so it is the job of God's redeemed people to pick up and collect dead corpses as their introduction into the "rule of Crist"? Seriously? This is joy unspeakable and peace o earth? John says islands will disappear, and mountains removed. The devastation will be so great that sinners will be seeking refuge under avalanches to escape. Many speak confidently of nuclear war. Global nuclear war, centered on the very place where we are supposed to live. Israel. Nuclear contamination everywhere and Israel as ground zero. Fall out for the entire 1000 years affecting us all. Contamination world wide from the destruction of nuclear power plants in the earthquakes and hail storm means all the seas and the land is utterly polluted. This is our inheritance? Not to mention that nature will now be totally out of balance with all natural life so devastated and disoriented, if there is anything left at all other than the few birds eating corpses...

 

[Trekson]

The Holy Spirit, once given, cannot be un-received.

The HS in ones life can be both grieved and quenched. Are you aware of the many denominations that reject the HS and spiritual gifts believing they were only for the first generation of Christians? I'm really not trying to discourage you or bash the church in general but when the bible says that in the last days many will depart from previously held beliefs, I believe it. We may not understand their motives or reasons but it could simply be God's way of removing the chaff from the harvest, but to dismiss it by saying, "they must not have been Christians in the first place", imo, does injustice to the warnings God gave us about living the Christian life.

 

[Naomi25]

The HS in ones life can be both grieved and quenched. Are you aware of the many denominations that reject the HS and spiritual gifts believing they were only for the first generation of Christians? I'm really not trying to discourage you or bash the church in general but when the bible says that in the last days many will depart from previously held beliefs, I believe it. We may not understand their motives or reasons but it could simply be God's way of removing the chaff from the harvest, but to dismiss it by saying, "they must not have been Christians in the first place", imo, does injustice to the warnings God gave us about living the Christian life.

Well, I suppose we're not really going to see eye to eye on this. Because where you see scripture saying people will depart, I see it also saying quite clearly that once 'in' Christ, they cannot be 'out of' Christ. In other words...if we don't 'earn' our salvation, how are we to 'un-earn' it, even if it is due to tough times, disbelief, etc. Our faith, our belief...it's on Christ, not us.
When we consider this problem logically, we either must believe that Christ rejects and casts away some he has drawn to him, (except, he says he won't do that)....or, we must think that these people, while professing with their mouths, were not genuine with their faith. And this is not a new concept in scripture. Christ himself introduces us to this when he tells us that there are those who will say "Lord, Lord..."
I am not...at this point trying to sway you, but only trying to explain why I see it so! I think, in a way, you are correct....our Countries are full of 'nominal' Christians, who, at the slightest storm, while abandon ship. It will seem like a great exodus of Christians abandoning the faith...I just don't think they truly know Jesus. Of him, yes, but as Lord, Saviour and friend...no.

 

[farouk]

Ok, here's the thing. Dispensationalists say that this 'wrath' that is being spoken of here is not the wrath that comes upon those unsaved at the judgement seat, but more of a...uh...pre-wrath, wrath.
I'm just wondering how you prove that, please? This is a legitimate question. To me, it seems that the verses that speak of 'escaping the wrath' in the context of these end times events, are always in terms of salvation/damnation. But, if you are sure this isn't the case, can you please give biblically sound reasons and verses to prove such? Thanks.

Well, I don't see the church in Matthew 24; and so don't see the church going through the great tribulation of Matthew 24.

 

[Trekson]

In other words...if we don't 'earn' our salvation, how are we to 'un-earn' it, even if it is due to tough times, disbelief, etc. Our faith, our belief...it's on Christ, not us

I'm not implying that God gives and takes back and yes it is on us to maintain our faith. Jesus did everything he needed to do on the cross. Seeing as salvation is an unearned free gift, it only becomes ours if we accept it. We can also reject it, choosing to live a life outside of God's will. A gift once received can be returned because the person no longer wants it or feels the need for it so no God doesn't take it back but with free will we can give it back.