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BarneyFife

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I would like to hear what you think of these scriptures as well as Galatians 4:22-31
It's a lot to answer and having worked for 30 years at a job that placed inordinate demands upon my mental faculties, I now suffer from frequent bouts of very low attention span, but I'll do the best I can for a someone who has been so friendly toward me.

It seems that our histories are very similar, but in reverse. Coming from a family of Southern Baptists (in eastern Tennessee), I believed somewhat as you do now, I guess. We considered ourselves New Testament Christians. The first Bible I owned was a copy of the New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs included. Respectable behavior was the standard and was expected, and the Sabbath commandment was applied to Sunday. Until I was 26 years old, I thought Sunday was the Sabbath. There was no Internet to tell me otherwise. All I knew was that people rested on Sunday and went back to work on Monday.

I haven't studied much of Paul's writings very deeply. Frankly, I find it frustrating because of how much arguing goes on about them. And I think I know why but when I bring it up I always get shut down hard. I really wish Peter had talked more about why when he mentioned that Paul writes many things that are hard to understand. He does give a clue, though, in the context:

2 Peter
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

As far as the two passages of Scripture you quoted, I have to be honest: I studied these two along with nearly every other objection that has ever been given to commandment-keeping before I became an Adventist. I was young and had a mind like a spongue and I was fortunate enough to have access to a church which had a library filled with old books by Adventist pioneers on these very subjects. They were so ripe with truth I could barely believe what I was reading. They were written at a time when Christians had much less to occupy their minds than the massive media glut we have now. There was much, much more Scripture quoted compared to the over-analysis and opinions we find in new books about Biblical studies. There were non-Adventist books, too, which didn't seem much different to me, except that the word "Sunday" sometimes replaced "Sabbath." Being uninitiated in who were Adventist and non-Adventist authors, oftentimes I would read half-way through a book before I would realize it was non-Adventist.

I found out from a combination of reading these books and studying my Bible that the difference between positions on the status of the law in Christianity was based on mainly 2 factors: an argument over whether the language in any given text was figurative or literal; or that when these texts were written by Paul, especially, were they using the "all things to all men" hyperbole, figure-of-speech method Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 9:22?

Much of the confusion in Christendom takes place because of the Luke 10:21 "wisdom hidden from the wise" concept that my friend @bbyrd009 so loves to cite. It is caused by folks in high religious places who are not converted, but simply wish to appear wise about Bible religion, IOW, a method of hating God that passes for a method of loving Him. The obvious problem with this is the fact that it causes a trickle-down effect upon innocents who are simply doing the best they can for reading material apart from the Bible Itself. And we all read other books.

But back to the 2 passages.

I believe a good way to understand 2 Corinthians 3 is in light of a similar passage:

Romans 7
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Is Paul talking about actually giving up the ghost here? No, he is talking about conviction, which is the same thing being spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

What about the glory of Moses's countenance? Is it the same as the glory of what is being reflected, the law? No, Paul just said the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. The glory of Moses's face faded away because he was mortal. So the ministry of death referred to in 2 Corinthians 3 must be something else. Could it be the ministry of conviction, alluded to in Romans 7? Well it would make more sense, since the law itself doesn't kill but teach that sin is present which, in turn, causes death.

Also, if 2 Cor 3 meant that the law is fading away, wouldn't all ten of the commandments become null and void? I don't see anything in the text that suggests it is restricted to the 4th article of the law.

As far as Galatians 4:22-31 is concerned:

Ishmael represents the Ten Commandments, and Isaac represents the New Covenant of the promise, Jesus.
Agreed
This is why we are not under the law according to Paul, but are not lawless, we establish the law through the Spirit.
No, the law of God and the law of sin and death are not the same.
This is the law of sin and death:
The one who sins is the one who will die. (Ezekiel 18:20)
Romans 8:1-2
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Again, conviction of cause and effect do not equal the ten commandments in content.

I don't know how deeply you studied Adventism, but what I get from it and what could be considered my basic philosophy is simply this: The conditions of eternal life are the same today as they always were and ever will be: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so we would need no savior. I don't particularly like boiled-down versions of philosophy (especially Christian) but it's the best I've been able to do.
 

justbyfaith

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The conditions of eternal life are the same today as they always were and ever will be: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so we would need no savior.
Do you have eternal life according to those conditions?
 

justbyfaith

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In Romans 7:7-13, we find a principle that sin takes advantage of the law to produce in a man all manner of concupiscence.

In Romans 7:8, without the law sin was dead.

Sin is rendered dead without the law.

With the law, sin is resurrected; and it produces the wages of sin, which is death (Romans 6:23).

This is the ministry of death that is according to the law.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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These are two COVENANTS. The covenant given on Mt. Sinai was the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28, kept by the flesh, and related to Ishmael. Circumcision was the sign of the Covenant to Abraham given 430 years prior, and referred to the Seed - Jesus, the promise. Speaking of signs of the covenants, the Sabbath was the sign to the covenant to the Jews in the Ten Commandments, Exodus 31:13

I haven't finished reading your post, but thought I would get this confusion out of the way first.

First you INSERTED YOUR CONFUSION, <<The covenant given on Mt. Sinai was the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:28, kept by the flesh, and related to Ishmael.>>
If only you could tear out the Fourth about GOD'S HOLY SABBATH DAY out of God's Holy Ten Commandments!
You cannot bluff me. You cannot bluff yourself -- it's all make-belief, you cannot persuade yourself of any confusion in any Scripture even, yet you think you can bluff God.
 

CharismaticLady

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It's a lot to answer and having worked for 30 years at a job that placed inordinate demands upon my mental faculties, I now suffer from frequent bouts of very low attention span, but I'll do the best I can for a someone who has been so friendly toward me.

It seems that our histories are very similar, but in reverse. Coming from a family of Southern Baptists (in eastern Tennessee), I believed somewhat as you do now, I guess. We considered ourselves New Testament Christians. The first Bible I owned was a copy of the New Testament with Psalms and Proverbs included. Respectable behavior was the standard and was expected, and the Sabbath commandment was applied to Sunday. Until I was 26 years old, I thought Sunday was the Sabbath. There was no Internet to tell me otherwise. All I knew was that people rested on Sunday and went back to work on Monday.

I haven't studied much of Paul's writings very deeply. Frankly, I find it frustrating because of how much arguing goes on about them. And I think I know why but when I bring it up I always get shut down hard. I really wish Peter had talked more about why when he mentioned that Paul writes many things that are hard to understand. He does give a clue, though, in the context:

2 Peter
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

As far as the two passages of Scripture you quoted, I have to be honest: I studied these two along with nearly every other objection that has ever been given to commandment-keeping before I became an Adventist. I was young and had a mind like a spongue and I was fortunate enough to have access to a church which had a library filled with old books by Adventist pioneers on these very subjects. They were so ripe with truth I could barely believe what I was reading. They were written at a time when Christians had much less to occupy their minds than the massive media glut we have now. There was much, much more Scripture quoted compared to the over-analysis and opinions we find in new books about Biblical studies. There were non-Adventist books, too, which didn't seem much different to me, except that the word "Sunday" sometimes replaced "Sabbath." Being uninitiated in who were Adventist and non-Adventist authors, oftentimes I would read half-way through a book before I would realize it was non-Adventist.

I found out from a combination of reading these books and studying my Bible that the difference between positions on the status of the law in Christianity was based on mainly 2 factors: an argument over whether the language in any given text was figurative or literal; or that when these texts were written by Paul, especially, were they using the "all things to all men" hyperbole, figure-of-speech method Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 9:22?

Much of the confusion in Christendom takes place because of the Luke 10:21 "wisdom hidden from the wise" concept that my friend @bbyrd009 so loves to cite. It is caused by folks in high religious places who are not converted, but simply wish to appear wise about Bible religion, IOW, a method of hating God that passes for a method of loving Him. The obvious problem with this is the fact that it causes a trickle-down effect upon innocents who are simply doing the best they can for reading material apart from the Bible Itself. And we all read other books.

But back to the 2 passages.

I believe a good way to understand 2 Corinthians 3 is in light of a similar passage:

Romans 7
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Is Paul talking about actually giving up the ghost here? No, he is talking about conviction, which is the same thing being spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

What about the glory of Moses's countenance? Is it the same as the glory of what is being reflected, the law? No, Paul just said the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. The glory of Moses's face faded away because he was mortal. So the ministry of death referred to in 2 Corinthians 3 must be something else. Could it be the ministry of conviction, alluded to in Romans 7? Well it would make more sense, since the law itself doesn't kill but teach that sin is present which, in turn, causes death.

Also, if 2 Cor 3 meant that the law is fading away, wouldn't all ten of the commandments become null and void? I don't see anything in the text that suggests it is restricted to the 4th article of the law.

As far as Galatians 4:22-31 is concerned:


Agreed

No, the law of God and the law of sin and death are not the same.
This is the law of sin and death:
The one who sins is the one who will die. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Again, conviction of cause and effect do not equal the ten commandments in content.

I don't know how deeply you studied Adventism, but what I get from it and what could be considered my basic philosophy is simply this: The conditions of eternal life are the same today as they always were and ever will be: Perfect obedience to the commandments of God. If it were not so we would need no savior. I don't particularly like boiled-down versions of philosophy (especially Christian) but it's the best I've been able to do.

For someone with a short attention span, you did a remarkable job!!!

No, I'm not a fan of Calvinist Baptists. I guess there may be other Baptists, such as Free Will Baptists, but I have not seen a denomination of any kind that believes as I do now. So, you can't compare me to any denomination that I know of. It seems that they all believe that we will always sin until we die, as you said, which makes us need a savior. Always sinning is not my belief. Curious, do you believe 1 John 1:8 is talking about a born again Christian? "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

You quoted out of Romans 7. But, at least, you quoted out of the best part. If you had gone one more verse you would see the reason Jesus came. It seems that many on the forum from all denominations, including SDA, seem to think that Jesus came to save us from the penalty of breaking the law, sin. You didn't address that, so what do you believe? Why did Jesus come to die for us?

I'm not done yet, but will pause to let you address these. (I had to laugh when you said when you were studying years ago you didn't have the internet :D )
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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Jesus came to save us from the penalty of breaking the law, sin.
This is what YOU <think>. And this is your LIE. The <<penalty of breaking the law>> is not, <<sin>>; it's "DEATH"!
And all this 'thinking' JUST TO SAVE YOURSELF FROM THE PENALTY FOR BREAKING THE SABBATH-LAW?! What fear does to people!
Read Barny Fife's wonderful thought! One of peace and not of fear.
 

CharismaticLady

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Circumcision is of the law of Moses and given at Sinai. So which of these, the 10 commandments or circumcision do the scriptures say bring us into “bondage” {Gal.4:24}?

You forget that circumcision was the SIGN of the Covenant to Abraham, and represented the promised SEED, Jesus. That was 430 years prior to Moses. Until the covenant to Abraham was fulfilled, the sign of it couldn't be removed, so, of course, it became part of the Law of Moses, but not the sign to the Ten Commandments. That was the Sabbath, one of the holy convocations that pointed to Christ, the fulfillment. Only when Jesus came and fulfilled both circumcision and the law would BOTH be done away, and a New Covenant of promise could be established.

GALATIANS 5 [1] Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and BE NOT ENTANGLED AGAIN WITH THE YOKE OF BONDAGE. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that IF YE BE CIRCUMCISED, CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING.

And again...

GALATIANS 2 [3] But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was COMPELLED TO BE CIRCUMCISED: [4]And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might BRING US INTO BONDAGE:

This is an extension of above. I see you like Galatians. How could you miss this?

Galatians 3:
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, TILL the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

cc: @BarnyFife (don't want to leave you out of my thoughts.)
 

ChristisGod

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Are Christians still carnal? Scriptures for your answer, please. Thanks.
who was the book of Corinthians written to believers or unbelievers ?

is a brother a believer ? yes or no

1 Cor 3:1-3
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
 

CharismaticLady

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So please tell me. How in the world do you keep the spirit of the law and not the letter?????According to the scriptures Jesus did not do away with the law but made the law greater. He magnified the law to a spiritual level. He made the 10 commandments even harder to keep.

2 COR. 3 [6] WHO ALSO HATH MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLETH, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Just before Jesus ascended into heaven, what did Jesus tell the disciples to wait in Jerusalem for, and what would it do for them? If you find this out, you will know the answer. Also, what did He tell Nicodemus?

I need to take this in stages. I want you to think first.
 

CharismaticLady

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who was the book of Corinthians written to believers or unbelievers ?

is a brother a believer ? yes or no

1 Cor 3:1-3
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

It was imperative that Paul speak to them because they were not living up to the light they had. Philippians 3:16. They had all the gifts of the Spirit, and the gifts are irrevocable. Matthew 7:21-23. In other words, they had not grown any, but going back to being carnal. If you believe in OSAS, know that doctrine can be dangerous, as I assume by your post. Let me know if you don't believe in that liberal doctrine. Only overcomers will be in heaven, Revelation 2 and 3.

But as you see in the next letter, they repented.

2 Corinthians 7:
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to SALVATION
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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As with the sabbath day law, Jesus brought it home to the spirit of rest as opposed to a singular day of the week in which you rest:

Mat 11:28, Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29, Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find re

No one is so fixed in his error, so convinced of his own sottishness, as the one who knows he is wrong but wants to be admired and acclaimed.
 

ChristisGod

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It was imperative that Paul speak to them because they were not living up to the light they had. Philippians 3:16. They had all the gifts of the Spirit, and the gifts are irrevocable. Matthew 7:21-23. In other words, they had not grown any, but going back to being carnal. If you believe in OSAS, know that doctrine can be dangerous, as I assume by your post. Let me know if you don't believe in that liberal doctrine. Only overcomers will be in heaven, Revelation 2 and 3.

But as you see in the next letter, they repented.

2 Corinthians 7:
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to SALVATION
Nice dodge you avoided my questions.

1- was Pauls letter to the Corinthians written to believers or unbelievers ?
2- did Paul call them brothers ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!
 

CharismaticLady

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Nice dodge you avoided my questions.

1- was Pauls letter to the Corinthians written to believers or unbelievers ?
2- did Paul call them brothers ? yes or no

hope this helps !!!

Believers, but had gone back to being carnal - unsaved. Without holiness, no man shall see God. Hebrews 12:14.

Yes, Paul called them brothers, but knew if they didn't repent they wouldn't be saved, thus the harshness of his first letter to cause them to repent.

WE MUST ENDURE TO THE END TO BE SAVED.
 

ChristisGod

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Believers, but had gone back to being carnal - unsaved. Without holiness, no man shall see God. Hebrews 12:14.

Yes, Paul called them brothers, but knew if they didn't repent they wouldn't be saved, thus the harshness of his first letter to cause them to repent.

WE MUST ENDURE TO THE END TO BE SAVED.
I'm sorry but Paul called the BROTHERS- meaning BELIEVERS not unbelievers.

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