Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
You have not shown where the Bible defines water baptism as you do.
The thief on the cross misconceptions
- Thread starter DJT_47
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
[email protected]
Choir Loft
Sounds like you're picking at nits here by linking Baptism to forgiveness of the thief on the cross. Your logic seems to be accurate on the surface of things, but since the entire subject is so far off the rails it's difficult to understand why anyone would take the time to argue the point.
Point being whether the thief, who Jesus forgave and promised redemption, ought to have been saved at all despite God's forgiveness granted at the time.
Point asserted is the establishment of the New Covenant at the moment of Jesus' death. Again, the point struggles at a gnat and swallows a camel. Baptism doesn't save anyone, but it IS commanded as an outward demonstration of Repentance of SIN and beginning of the New Life from the Second Birth.
Baptism has two functions: It demonstrates REPENTANCE of SIN. It ADMITS to the Second Birth granted of God after humbly asking for forgiveness. Baptism is the result of being saved, not the cause or source of it. Christ is the source whether He's dead or alive. (He's still alive according to current rumors).
Point being that the New Covenant is not a change in any way shape or form from the Old Covenant. (Matthew 5:17-18) The New Covenant is an addition to the Old Covenant, an amendment according to the way legal documents are cited, not a replacement for anything God has endorsed.
Despite rhetoric about Baptism and whether or not Jesus had authority to forgive, I perceive the real argument at point here is an attempt to assert Replacement Theology (*), which is Roman Catholic dogma and entirely bogus according to the Word of God.
....and THAT my friend I something worthy of time spent writing here...
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(*) Also called Supersessionism.
Last edited:
The gospel of Jesus Christ, Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15-16; 1Corinthians 15:1-4,
Faith in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ required to receive Gods grace.
Thief on the cross, his Faith,
Faith in Jesus as the Messiah, knowing Jesus is dying. No faith in or knowledge of His ressurection.
Impossible for the Thief to be our example of NT conversion today.
The Thief was saved under OT law.
Faith in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ required to receive Gods grace.
Thief on the cross, his Faith,
Faith in Jesus as the Messiah, knowing Jesus is dying. No faith in or knowledge of His ressurection.
Impossible for the Thief to be our example of NT conversion today.
The Thief was saved under OT law.
1Peter 3:20-21,
There is an antitype which now saves us- baptism, (Mark 16:15-16) not the removal of the filth of the flesh: (what baptism is not) but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection(1Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 6:3-6) of Jesus Christ.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
ok
Good conscience as a result of ... what? A bath?
It is the blood of Christ crucified and appropriated by faith that saves. This application of blood has as its parallel the 10th plague of Egypt. All who applied lamb's blood BY FAITH were saved from death.
Baptism, according to some prayerbooks, is the outward manifestation or witness to the world of the Second Birth. It is salvation by grace alone, NOT PERFORMANCE OF CEREMONY that saves us. Thus has the post-modern church followed the pharisees of old into insisting that tradition, not faith, justifies those who perform it.
Baptism is a demonstration of REPENTANCE - of one's death to SIN and the world. Thus the new believer is immersed in water, which symbolizes death to SIN. Following immersion the new believer rises from the water - symbolizing a rise unto new life.
Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Al Capone were all baptized. Their baths meant nothing because they hadn't repented of SIN. Their baths meant nothing because they had no faith to be saved. Stalin also attended seminary in his youth. Did ceremony prevent any of these men from murdering innocent men and women? It did not. Ceremony alone means nothing, baths notwithstanding.
Ceremony means nothing until and unless it is accompanied by faith in Christ and His death upon the cross.
In this does the post-modern church err. It now believes that Baptism and/or church membership will save. It won't.
I sat in a congregation one Sunday and heard a Baptist minister end his sermon with advice to his listeners to, "go out and SIN this week that grace may abound." There is no greater utterance of SIN and error than this.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.
Neither is Baptism one such license - as many have assumed it to be.......
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Hello,
Peter says don't mistake new covenant baptism with Jewish washings.
Peter: baptism is the answer of a good conscience, Obeying the gospel of Jesus, Mark 16:15-16.
Peter says baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not a bath, "not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God.
Peter says don't mistake new covenant baptism with Jewish washings.
Peter: baptism is the answer of a good conscience, Obeying the gospel of Jesus, Mark 16:15-16.
I agree. But can this definition of NT baptism be found in the gospel of Christ?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
I would suggest before you enter a Christian community and the Bible discussion forum you may at the very least read the whole of the New Testament. This way it won't become immediately obvious you are playing games.
Because you appear to enjoy watching to see how often, how long, Christians will try to correct your lack of understanding.
I'll pray for you. Because that is deeply sad.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Part 1
So they said to him, “Who are you? We need an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet:
“I am a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’ ”
Then the Pharisees who had been sent asked him, “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands One you do not know. He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”
All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
If water could wash away sins = repentance and the water baptism of John would of been sufficient to wash sin away
Last edited:
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
Please make the effort yourself.
Topical Bible - Bible Verses by Topic
That site allows for such a search. Enter, "Baptism", or any variation thereof. It will link scripture to the Bible gateway site which allows you to also click a link and read the whole chapter for context.
Remember that context is key in understanding. Scriptures work in harmony to deliver one grand message from God.
Taking a few scriptures from a chapter often provides clarity to drive home a specific point in a discussion. However that excerpt works in concert to flesh out the whole of the Gospel message.
God Bless.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:31
APART FROM THE LAW, NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.
Washings do not save. They are either a preparation for meeting the Lord or a demonstration that they have done so.
Jesus said righteousness is FULFILLED by baptism, not that baptism was the source of it. (Matthew 3:15)
The LAW requires blood to be shed and applied to those who come before the Lord for atonement.
Antisemitic rants aren't justification for aberrant dogma.
The LAW has not been abolished or changed (Matthew 5:17-18)
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Behold
Well-Known Member
"Righteousness" is a Gift from God, that we RECEIVE from God as "the GIFT of Righteousness".
Being Born again, is the only proof you have received God's SALVATION that is given as "The Gift of Righteousness", and "The Gift of Salvation".
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, i love your "rant" here!
Keep your head UP = YESHUA fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law (for no man could) and then HE nailed it to His Body on the Cross.
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us.
And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
ButterflyJones
Well-Known Member
The point that is often missed regarding the thieves on their crosses, each one on either side of Christ, and Jesus on his cross between them is that both men were mocking Jesus at first.
While nailed or tied to their cross waiting to suffer a very slow agonizing death.
Then the one thief came to realize who Jesus was. And he admonished the other thief who was still deriding Jesus.
That thief had a change of consciousness right there.
And asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom..
And Jesus assured him that same day, the thief would be with him in paradise. Not that very day. Yet the thief would be with him.
Even then nailed to his cross Jesus delivered the message. That thief of carnal natural sinful mind who mocked Jesus earlier later still on his cross realized to whom he was speaking.
Was that the thief? Or Holy Spirit?
The thief , both thieves initially, mocked Jesus. Matthew 27.
"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so" (Romans 8:7)
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( I Corinthians 2:14 ).
Then the one thief had a change of mind. Luke 23.
The power of Holy Spirit regenerating the carnal natural man's mind on his cross to know the things of God. That there hanging beside him was his Savior. Whom he did not know earlier and berated.
This is all accounted in scripture because there were witnesses to it.
While nailed or tied to their cross waiting to suffer a very slow agonizing death.
Then the one thief came to realize who Jesus was. And he admonished the other thief who was still deriding Jesus.
That thief had a change of consciousness right there.
And asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom..
And Jesus assured him that same day, the thief would be with him in paradise. Not that very day. Yet the thief would be with him.
Even then nailed to his cross Jesus delivered the message. That thief of carnal natural sinful mind who mocked Jesus earlier later still on his cross realized to whom he was speaking.
Was that the thief? Or Holy Spirit?
The thief , both thieves initially, mocked Jesus. Matthew 27.
"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so" (Romans 8:7)
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." ( I Corinthians 2:14 ).
Then the one thief had a change of mind. Luke 23.
The power of Holy Spirit regenerating the carnal natural man's mind on his cross to know the things of God. That there hanging beside him was his Savior. Whom he did not know earlier and berated.
This is all accounted in scripture because there were witnesses to it.
Jeff Wiebe
Member
You must show where the Bible calls obeying Gods will a work of merit. Where does the Bible teach obeying Gods commandments like repentance and baptism which are works of righteousness. Is meritorious salvation?
Faith without obedience to Gods commandments like repentance and baptism is not righteousness.
It is unrighteous to claim one can be saved without obedience to God, just belief only.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Does the Bible need to use those exact words? Plenty of examples. Ready?
John's baptism was public. That's an outward sign. (outside even) - LOL
And was a baptism of repentance. Inward reality? I hope so.
In the book of Acts we see some HUGE baptism events. 2000 and then 3000.
Those being added to the church.
Any possibility that these ceremonies were an outward sign of an inward reality?
Need more?
House of Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, believers in Ephesus... More?
