The thief on the cross !?

[Harvest 1874]

You state: … you will see Russel's grave stone that reads "The Laodicean Messenger"?

When you read Rev 3:14-19, you find the Laodicean church was wretched, miserable, naked, lukewarm, and God was going to spew this church out of his mouth, as he called it to repent?

Why would any Christian want to put "The Laodicean Messenger" on his grave stone?

In Reply, because many bible students believe that he was the Laodicean Messenger, the messenger to the seventh and final stage of the church, the “faithful and wise servant” (Matt 24:45) who was found faithfully dispensing to the Lord’s household (the household of faith), “meat in due season”, present truth, upon the Lord’s arrival.

It should be noted that the word Laodicean means: Justice for the People.

Being chosen as the Lord’s messenger to anyone of the seven stages of the church is a great honor, it implies the Lord’s faith and trust in the individual to relay his message to the church at that time faithfully and without prejudice not holding back either criticism or praise. You appear to under the impression that because this stage of the church is lukewarm and has been spewed from the mouth of God, i.e. Babylon has fallen, that the messenger is likewise fallen in this you err. In each stage of the church the message is to be given to both the true element (the faithful) as well as the false (the nominally professing element).

The problem here is that you mistakenly assumes that the messages contained in the letters were specifically addressed to the angels themselves, they were not. The letter (or the spirit of understanding specifically what the Lord wished addressed) was sent (by means of the Holy Spirit) to the individual angel (messenger), who in turn was to relay it to the church in order that they might overcome. The seven chosen angels were chosen because of their faithfulness, not because they themselves were having problems in the areas addressed.

It is important to bear in mind that these letters to the seven stages of the church were not literal written letters (sent through the mail or what have you), but rather they were spiritual letters (messages, lessons), sent by the Lord through the agency of the Holy Spirit. (This does not imply that there may or may not have been actual letters sent to the actual churches listed, but if there were it is highly unlikely that they would have comprehended correctly what the messages truly signified seeing as their true intent was for the church as a whole as it progressed through history.)

Since each message is written to the angel and not directly to the church, it is implied that the messenger will be sufficiently well known and /or well published so that the faithful of the period will be able to get the message from him. He will stand out in ecclesiastical history. He will not be obscure in the religious world.

 

[Truth7t7]

The only items on the pyramid are an inscription “Watchtower Bible & Tract Society” an open bible, and the cross and the crown symbol none of which have anything to do with Freemasonry. As illustrated in the picture below.

In an attempt to build a case on the alleged usage of questionable forms of pyramidology* in the Pastor’s over all ministry (a false accusation) an opponent of the Pastor and the Bible Students cites the fact that a seven-foot-tall stone pyramid was used in the Society’s Rosemont Cemetery near Pittsburgh to mark the location of burial plots for members of the Bethel staff, including Pastor Russell, he writes:

“Why a pyramid? Because much of the Society’s teaching focused on ‘The Testimony of God’s Stone Witness and Prophet, the Great Pyramid in Egypt,’ title of

Chapter Ten, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. III, 1890, page. 313.” Then at a later date this same individual stressed that this same chapter had sixty-three pages of material, in which the Pastor used “Egyptian pyramidology to foretell future events.”

The first allegation seems like the old adage of “making a mountain out of a mole hill.” If one were convinced that God had used the Pyramid in a remarkable way to symbolize His plan of the ages and had specifically identified it as such in His Word (the pillar of witness referred to in Isaiah 19:19, 20), would it be improper or occultist to have a reminder of such erected as an identifying marker of a section of a grave yard? It should also be pointed out that on each face of this marker pyramid there was a large replica of an open Bible, with the obvious intent of depicting how the Pyramid reflected and confirmed its teachings.

In similar style, a stone pyramid with a cross and crown sculptured on its front face may be seen in the Preston Road Cemetery in Yeovil, England. It evidently marks the grave of a Bible Student and his wife, and clearly states its significance on the face to the left of its frontage: “This model of the Great Pyramid of Egypt in symbol illustrates the glorious purpose of God to shortly through Christ restore edenic blessings.” Thus it emphasizes that the Pyramid is viewed as God’s witness in stone reflecting the grand message of the Bible and has nothing what so ever to do with the occult.

As for the second assertion that the pyramid was used to foretell future events, even I had to laugh at that one, this guy was obviously ignorant.

The Great Pyramid definitely was not used to predict the date for the Second Coming of Christ or to foretell any other events. All of the dates that it set forth coincided directly with known events in the six thousand year Bible chronology or dovetailed completely with it. Thus there were no surprises or additional revelations to be found in its measurements as applicable to prophetic events—just the realization that it precisely corroborated the accuracy of the written revelation, the Bible.

We will not waste time here disputing the various claims of those who dabble in superstition and occultism with regards to the so-called mystical powers of the Pyramid as there are plenty enough books and websites to be found to satisfy the curiosity of all who choose to be deceived in this direction, however we will say that no one thing has cause so much damage and or discredit to the testimony of the Great Pyramid as has this particular movement instigated no doubt by the Adversary.

*Pyramidology: The study of pyramids, but from a supernatural or new-age perspective, rather than the historical or archaeological viewpoint. The pastor did not study the pyramid from this perspective as he was against anything akin to occultism. His viewpoint was purely from a Biblical perspective alone.

Wikipedia:Cross And Crown

Cross and Crown


Cross and Crown

The symbol is also associated with Freemasonry, specifically the Knight Templar degree of the York Rite of Freemasonry. The symbol is also known as "Knight Templars Blood-Red Passion Cross and Crown".

 

[Harvest 1874]

Wikipedia:Cross And Crown

Cross and Crown


Cross and Crown

The symbol is also associated with Freemasonry, specifically the Knight Templar degree of the York Rite of Freemasonry. The symbol is also known as "Knight Templars Blood-Red Passion Cross and Crown".

I stand corrected, I was not aware that the Freemasons likewise used the symbol.

However the cross and the crown as used by Bible Students has nothing to do with Freemasons. This same symbol has been used by both the Catholic Church and by various Protestant denominations, are we then to assume that they too are affiliated with the Freemasons?

The Gospel which the Apostle preached and of which he was not ashamed invited those who have the hearing ears to consecrate their lives that they might be of the Elect Church. It gave assurance that the cross of the present time would end in bringing not only everlasting life in the future but also glory, honor and immortality, a share with Christ in his Kingdom and in its glorious work. In view of this believers were urged to present their bodies living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God through Christ, and to suffer with him now, be sharers of his ignominy and death that they might in due time be sharers with him in his Kingdom and honor and work of blessing all the families of the earth. In all of his teachings the Lord kept before the minds of the Church that the cross and the crown were inseparably united in the divine program— “If we suffer with him we shall also reign with him,” is his plea. The faithful were at the second advent of Christ to receive a crown of glory which fades not away. (1 Pet. 5:4)

If one is not willing to bare the cross they cannot not wear the crown.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually the scriptures stated that he was a created being, and we attempted to present them to you a while back on another post I believe, but yet you still refused to see it even directly from the Word of God, there's not much more that one can do, so we'll leave it at that. It is evident you are a believer in the Trinity.

No, the Scriptures never say that Christ was a created being, only that He manifested Himself in the flesh

 

[Enoch111]

No, the Scriptures never say that Christ was a created being, only that He manifested Himself in the flesh

You could take that one step further and say that God (Theos) was manifested in the flesh (took a human body).

 

[Phoneman777]

You could take that one step further and say that God (Theos) was manifested in the flesh (took a human body).

Actually it says that in 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Jesus Christ) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

 

[Phoneman777]

I stand corrected, I was not aware that the Freemasons likewise used the symbol.

It's actually a filthy occult symbol. The phallus was worshiped as the "generative principle" by those concluded that a man's ability to reproduce in his own image endows him with "god status" - this belief is the unavoidable consequence of the idea of pantheism. Sexual licentiousness is central and integral to pagan idolatrous worship, such as found on full display in pagan temples like those in India. The "PX" symbol so often seen in Christianity comes from paganism and is actually a man looking to the right with his "ahem" anatomy pointing straight down. The "compass and set square" of Freemasonry comes down from paganism and is the union of the male/female anatomy masquerading as implements of construction. In this Cross and Crown symbol, esoterics interpret it as the phallus being depicted as the Cross and it's penetrating the Crown womb. It would be all comical if not for the fact that occult science attests to this.

 

[Enoch111]

Actually it says that in 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Jesus Christ) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

That is exactly what I said, since "Jesus Christ" must be inserted (as you have done) to clarify who was God who took upon Himself a human body.

For the naysayers who deny that Jesus is God, this is one of the most powerful verses in Scripture asserting that Jesus is indeed God.

 

[Phoneman777]

That is exactly what I said, since "Jesus Christ" must be inserted (as you have done) to clarify who was God who took upon Himself a human body.

For the naysayers who deny that Jesus is God, this is one of the most powerful verses in Scripture asserting that Jesus is indeed God.

Unfortunately, we have to read the KJV or some other "Textus Receptus" MSS based version to find the verse correctly rendered "GOD was manifest in the flesh" - new versions which are based on the "Critical Text" MSS render it "HE" or "CHRIST" was manifest..." Critics unhappy with applying "from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God" to Christ argue that the TR use of "God" is illegit bc the CT is "older" and therefore "better" and "what God originally said".

However, "older" doesn't mean "better" or "originally said", it just means "old". For me, the evidence abounds that the CT is beyond all question a corrupt MSS and, as believed by many, a relic of Eusebius' "ecumenical Bible" which Constantine had him compile and produce about 50 copies for use in the newly "Christianized" Roman Empire as a means of bridging the gap between the truth and paganism. Christ's divinity is continually assaulted in it and this verse is a prime example of that.

Really, what "great mystery of Godliness" is it if anyone but GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF was manifest in the flesh?

 

[Enoch111]

Unfortunately, we have to read the KJV or some other "Textus Receptus" MSS based version to find the verse correctly rendered "GOD was manifest in the flesh"...

That is correct, and the reason that the word "God" was changed is because those promoting the critical texts and modern versions were not totally committed to the doctrine of the deity of Christ.

The change was introduced by Westcott & Hort and was REFUTED by Dean John William Burgon in a 76 page dissertation written to Bishop Ellicott (who sided with W & H and was on their team). Here is what Burgon said in his book The Revision Revised:

I presume it to be undeniably this:—That whereas the Easterns [the Eastern Orthodox Church] from time immemorial, (and we with them, since Tyndale in 1534 gave us our English Version of the N. T.,) have read the place thus:—(I set the words down in plain English, because the issue admits of being every bit as clearly exhibited in the vernacular, as in Greek: and because I am determined that all who are at the pains to read the present DISSERTATION shall understand it also—Whereas, I say, we have hitherto read the place thus,

“GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS:—GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, SEEN OF ANGELS, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, BELIEVED ON IN THE WORLD, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY:”

You insist that this is a “plain and clear error.”...

Burgon went on to explain that the Greek word for "God" --ΘΕΟΣ -- was contracted to ΘΣ in the uncial (capital letter) manuscripts. At the same time the Greek for "who" is ΟΣ, and the only way to distinguish them was two horizontal lines, one in the middle of theta and another above it to show contraction. In some manuscripts those horizontal lines were very faint or had disappeared. But they were clearly present in others.

However, there are more copies of the NT in cursive (lower case) than the uncials, and here is what Burgon said:

Every other known copy of S. Paul's Epistles, (written in the cursive character,) I have ascertained (by laborious correspondence with the chiefs of foreign libraries) concurs in exhibiting Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί...But because, in my judgment, this practical unanimity of the manuscripts is
not only “important” but conclusive, I shall presently recur to it (viz. at pages 494-5,) more in detail. For do but consider that these copies were one and all derived from yet older MSS. than themselves; and that the remote originals of those older MSS. were perforce of higher antiquity still, and were executed in every part of primitive Christendom.How is it credible that they should, one and all, conspire to mislead?

Since Westcott & Hort elevated two corrupt Greek uncial manuscripts -- Aleph and B -- above all the others, they refused to accept the testimony of the cursives. Ever since modern versions have changed "God" to "who" or "which", which is very pleasing to Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other heretics who deny the deity of Christ.