The thief on the cross !?

[amadeus]

hopefully we are pretty much all aware that we can adjust the font we are reading to whatever size we want
judging you is just easier i guess

I am aware of that, but perhaps others are not. One way to change it on most any computer is to simply hold the control button down while clicking either the + or the - key to increase or decrease whatever is on the monitor screen.

 

[Harvest 1874]

[QUOTE="Harvest 1874, said

Now the scriptures suggest that very soon now most likely during the great time of trouble the fallen spirits will regain this ability once again to manifest themselves in flesh, as they state that they were only locked in these chains of darkness until the judgement of the great day.

I disagree that these fallen spirits will regain this ability. Jude 1:6 says these are eternal bonds. It seems you are using the word "until" to say that these bonds will be lifted before these fallen spirits are destroyed, but the word "until" means "up to" for example, they are man and wife until death you do part. Therefore I believe these eternal bonds will remain up to the point in time they are being destroyed.

These fallen spirits are in eternal darkness too because of what happened in the days of Noah. That means these fallen spirits are in perpetual darkness because they no longer will receive any true light from God, you think God is going to start letting the fallen spirits receive his true light again, I don't think so.

This word “eternal” or “everlasting” as used in our text would better be translated “age-lasting”, as the punishment of being confined in chains of darkness is only temporary, they are either going to be cast into the lake of fire, second death whereby this punishment ends or in the case of some, following their judgment they may be judged worthy to return to the fold of the holy angels, having long since realize the folly of their course and repented.

This same idea applies equally to Daniel 12:2 where it states “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (those who take part in the first resurrection, and) some (to the resurrection of judgment) to shame and age-lasting contempt (that is lasting the millennial age).” That is to say their shame and contempt should they progress up the highway of holiness and reach perfection and then successfully pass their final test will come to an end, for others it will end in second death.

As for the word “until” we still see it as signifying that the restraint placed upon them is only to be held in check until the judgement of the great day. How else can they receive their final judgment or trial (krima), if they are not permitted to act? Since it is stated that the saints will be rendering this judgment (1 Cor. 6:3) it seems logical that this final judgment has not yet been determined.

God has been restraining these fallen ones until the day of judgement, but mostly until the completion of the Church at which time the “four winds” (Rev 7:1), the same winds that “strove upon the great sea” (the restless masses of mankind) spoken of in Dan 7:2 will be let loose and then there will be a time of trouble such has never been upon the earth since the beginning of the world (since the former days when the spirits were loose and violence filled the earth) nor since that time (thus implying the trouble coming will be the worst ever to have befallen mankind) nor ever again.

Oh and by the way my brother you are still messing up when quoting, I had to add what you said once again to the post in order for it to makes sense. When you wish to respond to someones comment and wish to quote what they said place your remarks after the brackets with the word QUOTE in them, not before. Just giving you a heads up once again.

 

[Phoneman777]

If you had actually taken the time to read my post you would have noted that I said “The fallen spirits have (had) the ability to manifest themselves in fleshly bodies”, but that this ability was taken from them when they were locked in chains of darkness. As for the Holy Angels they still retain this ability even now, this was whom I was referring to when I said that “The ability for angelic beings to manifest themselves into fleshly bodies is proven throughout the scriptures.”

Now the scriptures suggest that very soon now most likely during the great time of trouble the fallen spirits will regain this ability once again to manifest themselves in flesh, as they state that they were only locked in these chains of darkness until the judgement of the great day.

As for demons playing with your mind, emotions and etc. they cannot do this unless you allow them, they aren’t even allowed to enter the minds of the brute creation without permission as was made evident when the legion of demons inhabiting the man asked the Lord if they could inhabit the minds of a heard of swine near by, this only resulted in the swine going mad and leaping from the cliff.

I actually did take the time to read it, but the "...have (had) the ability" part was a little confusing to me.

Demonic possession and demonic deception are two different things - the limitations of one don't apply to the other as you suggest bc demons don't need permission to work deception on the minds of people - why do you think we believers are cautioned repeatedly to "test the spirits"? Was not Jesus tempted with Satan's deceptions? They don't need anyone's permission - only their ignorance of the truth - to attempt to and to accomplish deception.

There's not a single Scripture that says angels or demons can manifest literal flesh and bone humanity - they only appear to do so, as evidenced by Jesus' words "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see Me have". If good and evil spirits had the ability to manifest as actual flesh and bone humans, Jesus' words would have been no proof at all of His resurrected humanity, would they not? He would have had to say, "My flesh and bones don't disqualify Me as a spirit bc them demons took wives and made giant rug rats, but just trust Me, I'm no spirit, I'm really Jesus, guys."

So, it appears that I've got at least one Scriptural precedent for angels not having the ability to manifest actual "flesh and bone", which leads to the only possible conclusion that they are able only to manifest the appearance of actual flesh and bone. Do you have a Scriptural precedent to the contrary?

 

[Harvest 1874]

I actually did take the time to read it, but the "...have (had) the ability" part was a little confusing to me.

Demonic possession and demonic deception are two different things - the limitations of one don't apply to the other as you suggest bc demons don't need permission to work deception on the minds of people - why do you think we believers are cautioned repeatedly to "test the spirits"? Was not Jesus tempted with Satan's deceptions? They don't need anyone's permission - only their ignorance of the truth - to attempt to and to accomplish deception.

There's not a single Scripture that says angels or demons can manifest literal flesh and bone humanity - they only appear to do so, as evidenced by Jesus' words "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see Me have". If good and evil spirits had the ability to manifest as actual flesh and bone humans, Jesus' words would have been no proof at all of His resurrected humanity, would they not? He would have had to say, "My flesh and bones don't disqualify Me as a spirit bc them demons took wives and made giant rug rats, but just trust Me, I'm no spirit, I'm really Jesus, guys."

So, it appears that I've got at least one Scriptural precedent for angels not having the ability to manifest actual "flesh and bone", which leads to the only possible conclusion that they are able only to manifest the appearance of actual flesh and bone. Do you have a Scriptural precedent to the contrary?

You state: I actually did take the time to read it, but the "...have (had) the ability" part was a little confusing to me.

Understood, I was simply implying that they have the ability, but not at the present time.

You state: Demonic possession and demonic deception are two different things - the limitations of one don't apply to the other as you suggest bc demons don't need permission to work deception on the minds of people - why do you think we believers are cautioned repeatedly to "test the spirits"? Was not Jesus tempted with Satan's deceptions? They don't need anyone's permission - only their ignorance of the truth - to attempt to and to accomplish deception.

First off to test or try the spirits has nothing to do with actually testing the fallen spirits; to try the spirits means to prove the testimony, to prove the teachings or doctrines of any sect or individual, "believe not every spirit (every teaching), but try the spirits whether they are of God (or of men)." And yes you are correct there is a difference between possession and deception we weren’t referring to deception, but rather to possession, possession is only possible if one is mentally deficient or if they allow themselves to be possessed.

You state: There's not a single Scripture that says angels or demons can manifest literal flesh and bone humanity - they only appear to do so, as evidenced by Jesus' words "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see Me have". If good and evil spirits had the ability to manifest as actual flesh and bone humans, Jesus' words would have been no proof at all of His resurrected humanity, would they not? He would have had to say, "My flesh and bones don't disqualify Me as a spirit bc them demons took wives and made giant rug rats, but just trust Me, I'm no spirit, I'm really Jesus, guys."

So, it appears that I've got at least one Scriptural precedent for angels not having the ability to manifest actual "flesh and bone", which leads to the only possible conclusion that they are able only to manifest the appearance of actual flesh and bone. Do you have a Scriptural precedent to the contrary?

Actually we don’t disagree with you altogether here at all, this is what we have been attempting to imply when we said that spirits have the ability to manifest (or animate) themselves in the flesh.

The following are a few examples of spirit beings manifesting themselves as fleshly beings:

Our foremost example of course is our Lord himself following his resurrection when as a spirit being he manifested himself in various fleshly bodies on multiple occasions prior to his ascension.

And then following his ascension two angels did the same when they appeared to the disciples (Acts 1:10)

Another occasion was when the Lord (in his prehumen existence) along with two other angels appeared to Abraham in human form. -- Gen 18:1-3

Two of these angels went to Lot to warn him of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis Chapter 19)

In Gen 32:2, angels were sent to Jacob. In verse 24 Jacob wrestled with an angel until daybreak

The point is that in every one of these instances a spirit being manifested himself in a fleshly body, appearing as a man in order that they might appear to men (be seen).

As for the text you cited, viz.

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Our Lord here was attempting show the disciples that this was not his actual spirit body, you (that is a human being) can neither see nor touch a spirit body, but the body he appeared in could be touch. The body he appeared in was “flesh and bone” an actual fleshly body howbeit not a body in the same sense as was theirs.

A point is sometimes made with respect to Jesus' words here that he was "flesh and bone" as opposed to "flesh and blood."

Is there anything significant here? We believe that there is.

The expression "flesh and blood" conveys to us the idea of living flesh. The fact that Jesus left out the word "blood" and substituted the word "bone" may reinforce the idea of a spiritual resurrection.

In the Old Testament, blood is associated with life. In Gen 9:4 we read: "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." This identification of life with the blood helps us to understand the concept of sacrifice unto death, which is central to the theme of Christianity during the Gospel Age. All of those who will follow Jesus must render a sacrifice unto death even as their Master did. Their "blood" must be poured out as was their Lord's.

So when Jesus omitted the word "blood" in the expression "flesh and bone"' he was teaching two things. First, the fact that his sacrifice was complete, his blood had been poured out unto death. Secondly, the body that he materialized was not living in the sense that the disciples were living. Blood is not indicated. The body was animated, rather than alive, and controlled by the real spirit being unseen and un-seeable to them, Jesus the Divine. This however did not imply that this animated or manifested fleshly body was not capable of eating, sleeping, and yes of copulation. It was a real body, just not in the same sense that you and I are a real body.

 

[Phoneman777]

You state: I actually did take the time to read it, but the "...have (had) the ability" part was a little confusing to me.

Understood, I was simply implying that they have the ability, but not at the present time.

You state: Demonic possession and demonic deception are two different things - the limitations of one don't apply to the other as you suggest bc demons don't need permission to work deception on the minds of people - why do you think we believers are cautioned repeatedly to "test the spirits"? Was not Jesus tempted with Satan's deceptions? They don't need anyone's permission - only their ignorance of the truth - to attempt to and to accomplish deception.

First off to test or try the spirits has nothing to do with actually testing the fallen spirits; to try the spirits means to prove the testimony, to prove the teachings or doctrines of any sect or individual, "believe not every spirit (every teaching), but try the spirits whether they are of God (or of men)." And yes you are correct there is a difference between possession and deception we weren’t referring to deception, but rather to possession, possession is only possible if one is mentally deficient or if they allow themselves to be possessed.

You state: There's not a single Scripture that says angels or demons can manifest literal flesh and bone humanity - they only appear to do so, as evidenced by Jesus' words "a spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see Me have". If good and evil spirits had the ability to manifest as actual flesh and bone humans, Jesus' words would have been no proof at all of His resurrected humanity, would they not? He would have had to say, "My flesh and bones don't disqualify Me as a spirit bc them demons took wives and made giant rug rats, but just trust Me, I'm no spirit, I'm really Jesus, guys."

So, it appears that I've got at least one Scriptural precedent for angels not having the ability to manifest actual "flesh and bone", which leads to the only possible conclusion that they are able only to manifest the appearance of actual flesh and bone. Do you have a Scriptural precedent to the contrary?

Actually we don’t disagree with you altogether here at all, this is what we have been attempting to imply when we said that spirits have the ability to manifest (or animate) themselves in the flesh.

The following are a few examples of spirit beings manifesting themselves as fleshly beings:

Our foremost example of course is our Lord himself following his resurrection when as a spirit being he manifested himself in various fleshly bodies on multiple occasions prior to his ascension.

And then following his ascension two angels did the same when they appeared to the disciples (Acts 1:10)

Another occasion was when the Lord (in his prehumen existence) along with two other angels appeared to Abraham in human form. -- Gen 18:1-3

Two of these angels went to Lot to warn him of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis Chapter 19)

In Gen 32:2, angels were sent to Jacob. In verse 24 Jacob wrestled with an angel until daybreak

The point is that in every one of these instances a spirit being manifested himself in a fleshly body, appearing as a man in order that they might appear to men (be seen).

As for the text you cited, viz.

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Our Lord here was attempting show the disciples that this was not his actual spirit body, you (that is a human being) can neither see nor touch a spirit body, but the body he appeared in could be touch. The body he appeared in was “flesh and bone” an actual fleshly body howbeit not a body in the same sense as was theirs.

A point is sometimes made with respect to Jesus' words here that he was "flesh and bone" as opposed to "flesh and blood."

Is there anything significant here? We believe that there is.

The expression "flesh and blood" conveys to us the idea of living flesh. The fact that Jesus left out the word "blood" and substituted the word "bone" may reinforce the idea of a spiritual resurrection.

In the Old Testament, blood is associated with life. In Gen 9:4 we read: "But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." This identification of life with the blood helps us to understand the concept of sacrifice unto death, which is central to the theme of Christianity during the Gospel Age. All of those who will follow Jesus must render a sacrifice unto death even as their Master did. Their "blood" must be poured out as was their Lord's.

So when Jesus omitted the word "blood" in the expression "flesh and bone"' he was teaching two things. First, the fact that his sacrifice was complete, his blood had been poured out unto death. Secondly, the body that he materialized was not living in the sense that the disciples were living. Blood is not indicated. The body was animated, rather than alive, and controlled by the real spirit being unseen and un-seeable to them, Jesus the Divine. This however did not imply that this animated or manifested fleshly body was not capable of eating, sleeping, and yes of copulation. It was a real body, just not in the same sense that you and I are a real body.

1) Sorry, but your first claim that "test the spirits" doesn't apply to fallen spirits is completely overthrown by 1 John 4:1-6.
2) Your examples of spirits manifesting themselves as human are not evidence that they are literally "flesh and bone", but only evidence they have ability to appear to have flesh and bone. The angels who ate Abraham's food have a digestive tract and need to stop at a PortaPotty on their way to Sodom, or is it likely they gave only the appearance of eating so as to complete their disguise to Abraham?
3) Jesus is not a "spirit being" that appeared as a flesh and bone human to the disciples, otherwise He would not have denied that He was to them. Jesus, the Creator God Who was fully God from eternity past and will be unto eternity future, is now a flesh and bone human with a glorified human body, which He attests to by His words, "...a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have."
4) Why insist that the "sons of God" are angels, who have never once been shown to possess ability to have sex, when the phrase is well known to apply to human beings who are loyal to God?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

This word “eternal” or “everlasting” as used in our text would better be translated “age-lasting”, as the punishment of being confined in chains of darkness is only temporary, they are either going to be cast into the lake of fire, second death whereby this punishment ends or in the case of some, following their judgment they may be judged worthy to return to the fold of the holy angels, having long since realize the folly of their course and repented.

This same idea applies equally to Daniel 12:2 where it states “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (those who take part in the first resurrection, and) some (to the resurrection of judgment) to shame and age-lasting contempt (that is lasting the millennial age).” That is to say their shame and contempt should they progress up the highway of holiness and reach perfection and then successfully pass their final test will come to an end, for others it will end in second death.

As for the word “until” we still see it as signifying that the restraint placed upon them is only to be held in check until the judgement of the great day. How else can they receive their final judgment or trial (krima), if they are not permitted to act? Since it is stated that the saints will be rendering this judgment (1 Cor. 6:3) it seems logical that this final judgment has not yet been determined.

God has been restraining these fallen ones until the day of judgement, but mostly until the completion of the Church at which time the “four winds” (Rev 7:1), the same winds that “strove upon the great sea” (the restless masses of mankind) spoken of in Dan 7:2 will be let loose and then there will be a time of trouble such has never been upon the earth since the beginning of the world (since the former days when the spirits were loose and violence filled the earth) nor since that time (thus implying the trouble coming will be the worst ever to have befallen mankind) nor ever again.

Oh and by the way my brother you are still messing up when quoting, I had to add what you said once again to the post in order for it to makes sense. When you wish to respond to someones comment and wish to quote what they said place your remarks after the brackets with the word QUOTE in them, not before. Just giving you a heads up once again.

I have found nowhere in the scriptures that any of these fallen spirits will be reinstated back into the fold of the Holy Angels. I do see that some of unrighteous mankind who are resurrected will be reinstated back into righteous mankind if they continue to progress in their love for God and his Kingdom and only begotten Son.

 

[Harvest 1874]

1) Sorry, but your first claim that "test the spirits" doesn't apply to fallen spirits is completely overthrown by 1 John 4:1-6.
2) Your examples of spirits manifesting themselves as human are not evidence that they are literally "flesh and bone", but only evidence they have ability to appear to have flesh and bone. The angels who ate Abraham's food have a digestive tract and need to stop at a PortaPotty on their way to Sodom, or is it likely they gave only the appearance of eating so as to complete their disguise to Abraham?
3) Jesus is not a "spirit being" that appeared as a flesh and bone human to the disciples, otherwise He would not have denied that He was to them. Jesus, the Creator God Who was fully God from eternity past and will be unto eternity future, is now a flesh and bone human with a glorified human body, which He attests to by His words, "...a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have."
4) Why insist that the "sons of God" are angels, who have never once been shown to possess ability to have sex, when the phrase is well known to apply to human beings who are loyal to God?

In response to points 2 and 4 we'll just have to agree to disagree, as for point 3 you lost me, I'm not sure at all what you're saying; I believe part of your difficulty is that your perception is clouded by your Trinitarian bias.

In your first sentence you state: Jesus is not a "spirit being" that appeared as a flesh and bone human to the disciples…

He most certainly was as he himself clearly implied when he said, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39

The Lord here was attempting to reassure the disciples that it was truly him, that they were not merely seeing a spirit (or ghost) as they imagine (See verse 37), and as such told them, ‘Go ahead and touch me, see that I am real and not simply a spirit, for a spirit has no flesh or bones as you see I have.’ ‘Have you any food,’ (Which they did), and so he ate in their presence, which was merely another attempt to reassure them that he was real and not simply a spirit.

It’s hard to fandom the remainder of your statement, in the first sentence you stated that, “Jesus is not a "spirit being" that appeared as a flesh and bone human…” and then bypassing the Trinitarian rant, you appear to be saying that he “is now a flesh and bone human with a glorified human body, which He attests to by His words, "...a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see Me have."

That is, if in this last you were merely being sarcastic, and in essence were saying since Jesus is God are we now to believe that he is a flesh and bone human with a glorified human body?

If that is what you meant, then the answer is no.

As our Lord stated, a spirit beings body (not a spirit, or a ghost), but a spirit being (such as an angel) its body is not composed of flesh and bone.

“Some Christians draw very absurd conclusions from this expression of our Lord as to the verity of his assumed flesh and bone body. They regard the assumed body as his spirit body, and declare that a spirit body is flesh and bones, and just like a human body, excepting that an indefinable something, which they call spirit, flows through its veins instead of blood. They seem to disregard the statement of our Lord that this was not a spirit body--that a spirit being has not flesh and bones. Do they also forget John's statement, that "It doth not yet appear" what a spirit body is, and that we shall not know until we are changed and made like him and see him, not as he was, but as he is? (1 John 3:2) Do they also forget the Apostle Paul's express statement that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?"--and his further assurance that therefore all the heirs with Christ must also "be changed?" 1 Cor. 15:50, 51

Many Christians have the idea that our Lord's glorious spiritual body is the very same body that was crucified and laid away in Joseph's tomb: they expect, when they see the Lord in glory, to identify him by the scars he received on Calvary. This is a great mistake, which very little consideration should make manifest--Firstly, It would prove that his resurrection body is not glorious or perfect, but scarred and disfigured: Secondly, It would prove that we do know what a spirit body is, notwithstanding the Apostle's statement to the contrary: Thirdly, It would prove that our redemption price was taken back; for Jesus said, "My flesh I will give for the life of the world." It was his flesh, his life as a man, his humanity that was sacrificed for our redemption. And when he was raised to life again by the power of the Father, it was not to human existence; because that was sacrificed as our purchase price. And if that price had been taken back, we would still be under the condemnation of death, and without hope.

We have no more reason to suppose that our Lord's spirit body since his resurrection is a human body than we have for supposing that his spirit body prior to his first advent was human, or that other spirit beings have human bodies; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones; and, says the Apostle Peter, our Lord was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in spirit."

 

[Harvest 1874]

I have found nowhere in the scriptures that any of these fallen spirits will be reinstated back into the fold of the Holy Angels. I do see that some of unrighteous mankind who are resurrected will be reinstated back into righteous mankind if they continue to progress in their love for God and his Kingdom and only begotten Son.

It is not directly stated, but we can imagine that if the Lord is merciful with us who have gone astray, that he might exercise that same mercy with regards to such of the fallen spirits who have realized their error have repented.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is not directly stated, but we can imagine that if the Lord is merciful with us who have gone astray, that he might exercise that same mercy with regards to such of the fallen spirits who have realized their error have repented.

Now your gonna teach "Universalism"?

Universal reconciliation, of the devils/demons, and are ya gonna throw Satan in there tooooo?

Everybody get's a free ride to heaven, hell and the lake of fire doesn't exist?

100% A False Teaching!

Matthew 25:41KJV
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Wikipedia: Universalism
The fundamental idea of Christian Universalism is universal reconciliation – that all humans will eventually be saved, and eventually enter Heaven in God's kingdom, through the grace and work of Jesus Christ. Christian Universalism teaches that an eternal Hell does not exist and was not what Jesus taught.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It is not directly stated, but we can imagine that if the Lord is merciful with us who have gone astray, that he might exercise that same mercy with regards to such of the fallen spirits who have realized their error have repented.

I don't think so because I believe that because Adam and Eve were created perfect(no spots or blemishes) and were not inclined toward sin as we are who are born in sin, that they had no excuse for rebelling. The Angels too that rebelled that God created perfect also had no excuse for their rebellion. I honestly don't believe that Adam and Eve and the Fallen Angels can be forgiven, there is no savior for the Fallen Angels and I believe Jesus is the savior of Adam and Eve offspring only.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Now your gonna teach "Universalism"?

Universal reconciliation, of the devils/demons, and are ya gonna throw Satan in there tooooo?

Everybody get's a free ride to heaven, hell and the lake of fire doesn't exist?

100% A False Teaching!

Matthew 25:41KJV
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Wikipedia: Universalism
The fundamental idea of Christian Universalism is universal reconciliation – that all humans will eventually be saved, and eventually enter Heaven in God's kingdom, through the grace and work of Jesus Christ. Christian Universalism teaches that an eternal Hell does not exist and was not what Jesus taught.

First of all I don't know of any Universalist who believe that all the fallen spirits are to be saved. Universalist only believe that God will save all mankind.

Secondly, we did not suggest that all the fallen spirits might be shown mercy, we said such as have realized their error and repented. Theres a big difference there my friend.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I don't think so because I believe that because Adam and Eve were created perfect(no spots or blemishes) and were not inclined toward sin as we are who are born in sin, that they had no excuse for rebelling. The Angels too that rebelled that God created perfect also had no excuse for their rebellion. I honestly don't believe that Adam and Eve and the Fallen Angels can be forgiven, there is no savior for the Fallen Angels and I believe Jesus is the savior of Adam and Eve offspring only.

Now you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness as they don't believe Adam will be saved either, unfortunately this is not so, if Adam is not saved then neither are you, I or the rest of mankind.

As for the fallen spirits they don't require a Savior as does mankind because they were not judged under the same penalty as we.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Now you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness as they don't believe Adam will be saved either, unfortunately this is not so, if Adam is not saved then neither are you, I or the rest of mankind.

As for the fallen spirits they don't require a Savior as does mankind because they were not judged under the same penalty as we.

I understand that's what you believe and I can see that we disagree and that's ok that's your right, but I also understand that just because I disagree with you that doesn't make me wrong it just means we disagree.

 

[Truth7t7]

Now you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness as they don't believe Adam will be saved either, unfortunately this is not so, if Adam is not saved then neither are you, I or the rest of mankind.

As for the fallen spirits they don't require a Savior as does mankind because they were not judged under the same penalty as we.

CARM

Can fallen angels repent and be forgiven
by Matt Slick

No, fallen angels cannot repent. They have been given over to their sinful rebellion. Repentance is something granted by God to people (2 Timothy 2:25) and is part of the work of salvation that is the work of God. Angels have no way of being redeemed that we know of biblically because the pattern of redemption involves the incarnation of God where he became one of us and died for us. This means we are able to be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). But there is no such redemptive work supplied to the angelic realm. Therefore, there is no regeneration and no change, which means no repentance.

The Bible speaks of elect angels or chosen angels. "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality." (1 Timothy 5:21). So we can see there were chosen angels. This probably means that God was electing angels not to fall in the great spiritual rebellion before the creation of the world. If they were chosen to not fall, it was probably for a reason to serve God. We as humans were not chosen by God not to fall, but we were chosen to be redeemed (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4-5).

So, fallen angels cannot repent, be saved, and spend eternity with God. They knew God in the spiritual realm, rejected him, and will face their just punishment.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Now you're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness as they don't believe Adam will be saved either, unfortunately this is not so, if Adam is not saved then neither are you, I or the rest of mankind.

As for the fallen spirits they don't require a Savior as does mankind because they were not judged under the same penalty as we.

I am a Jehovah witness and I expect the persecution to come, that statement up above "Now you sound like a Jehovah's witness, that's a put down a persecution simply because I disagree with you, I will not put you down simply because you disagree with me or at lease, I'll try my best I am an imperfect person like everyone else, I make mistakes sometimes when people make me angry.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I understand that's what you believe and I can see that we disagree and that's ok that's your right, but I also understand that just because I disagree with you that doesn't make me wrong it just means we disagree.

Its OK my brother no harm, I understand a quick reply does not suffice for evidence of our position thus I will attempt to explain in a forthcoming post.

 

[Harvest 1874]

CARM

Can fallen angels repent and be forgiven
by Matt Slick

No, fallen angels cannot repent. They have been given over to their sinful rebellion. Repentance is something granted by God to people (2 Timothy 2:25) and is part of the work of salvation that is the work of God. Angels have no way of being redeemed that we know of biblically because the pattern of redemption involves the incarnation of God where he became one of us and died for us. This means we are able to be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ, God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). But there is no such redemptive work supplied to the angelic realm. Therefore, there is no regeneration and no change, which means no repentance.

The Bible speaks of elect angels or chosen angels. "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality." (1 Timothy 5:21). So we can see there were chosen angels. This probably means that God was electing angels not to fall in the great spiritual rebellion before the creation of the world. If they were chosen to not fall, it was probably for a reason to serve God. We as humans were not chosen by God not to fall, but we were chosen to be redeemed (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4-5).

So, fallen angels cannot repent, be saved, and spend eternity with God. They knew God in the spiritual realm, rejected him, and will face their just punishment.

In respects to Mr. Slick we disagree,

We have no definite information respecting the fallen angels, except where the Apostle says, "Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?" This word "judge" as used in the Scriptures represents a trial. The inference, then, is that if they are to have a further trial, then some of them will have an opportunity of benefiting by that trial.

They fell from their condition of holiness through a measure of temptation, and in the long period since their fall they have had abundant opportunity to see the error of their course, and if they will, to reform. We notice, furthermore, the Apostle Peter tells us that our Lord Jesus by His death and resurrection preached to the spirits in prison, thus referring directly to the fallen angels who kept not their first estate, but were cast into Tartarus and restrained in darkness or prison by that chain.

The Apostle Peter's statement amounts to this: The fallen angels, now called demons, had a certain great lesson preached to them: it was the manifestation of God's great mercy to mankind in making the arrangement for the redemption of mankind, and the fallen angels could see that if the Lord was gracious to mankind, there was a possibility that He might also show mercy to them sometime.

The supposition is, that since the time Jesus by His death and resurrection preached that sermon to the angels, the holy as well as the fallen ones, that some would reform and manifest their reform and we may reasonably infer such would refrain from any further disobedience; and, therefore, during the past 2000+ years, there have been two general classes of these fallen angels, some faithful and returning to righteousness, and others still out of harmony with God, practicing sin and following Satan.

Does this require a ransom? No. If the angels had been condemned to death, then a ransom from death would have been necessary. They were merely restrained in darkness and kept from using their powers. If it had been a death sentence, then it would have required one holy angel to become the ransom for each fallen angel, because they would have come under condemnation individually. With mankind it is different; you and I were not condemned individually, but came under the condemnation through Father Adam, hence the redemption of Father Adam means not only the redemption of himself, but also of all his posterity. Thus God's plan is that Christ might be the ransom for all by being the ransom for one; but no such arrangement would be possible for the fallen angels, but they are subject to their own individual sentence.

 

[Truth7t7]

In respects to Mr. Slick we disagree,

We have no definite information respecting the fallen angels, except where the Apostle says, "Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?" This word "judge" as used in the Scriptures represents a trial. The inference, then, is that if they are to have a further trial, then some of them will have an opportunity of benefiting by that trial.

They fell from their condition of holiness through a measure of temptation, and in the long period since their fall they have had abundant opportunity to see the error of their course, and if they will, to reform. We notice, furthermore, the Apostle Peter tells us that our Lord Jesus by His death and resurrection preached to the spirits in prison, thus referring directly to the fallen angels who kept not their first estate, but were cast into Tartarus and restrained in darkness or prison by that chain.

The Apostle Peter's statement amounts to this: The fallen angels, now called demons, had a certain great lesson preached to them: it was the manifestation of God's great mercy to mankind in making the arrangement for the redemption of mankind, and the fallen angels could see that if the Lord was gracious to mankind, there was a possibility that He might also show mercy to them sometime.

The supposition is, that since the time Jesus by His death and resurrection preached that sermon to the angels, the holy as well as the fallen ones, that some would reform and manifest their reform and we may reasonably infer such would refrain from any further disobedience; and, therefore, during the past 2000+ years, there have been two general classes of these fallen angels, some faithful and returning to righteousness, and others still out of harmony with God, practicing sin and following Satan.

Does this require a ransom? No. If the angels had been condemned to death, then a ransom from death would have been necessary. They were merely restrained in darkness and kept from using their powers. If it had been a death sentence, then it would have required one holy angel to become the ransom for each fallen angel, because they would have come under condemnation individually. With mankind it is different; you and I were not condemned individually, but came under the condemnation through Father Adam, hence the redemption of Father Adam means not only the redemption of himself, but also of all his posterity. Thus God's plan is that Christ might be the ransom for all by being the ransom for one; but no such arrangement would be possible for the fallen angels, but they are subject to their own individual sentence.

Fallen Angels Do Not Have A 2nd Chance To Repent, No More Than A Human That Has Died Does.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I am a Jehovah witness and I expect the persecution to come, that statement up above "Now you sound like a Jehovah's witness, that's a put down a persecution simply because I disagree with you, I will not put you down simply because you disagree with me or at lease, I'll try my best I am an imperfect person like everyone else, I make mistakes sometimes when people make me angry.

It was not meant as a insult my friend if you received it as such, my apologies. We are much more alike than you can imagine I am a Bible Student (what many Jehovah's Witnesses refer to as the "evil slave class"), so we're accustom to similar remarks (persecutions as you like to call them) coming from our JW friends.

I personally believe that the Witnesses are closer to the truth than are the rest of the professing church (Catholics and Protestants), nevertheless there are distinctive doctrinal differences between the beliefs of Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[Truth7t7]

It was not meant as a insult my friend if you received it as such, my apologies. We are much more alike than you can imagine I am a Bible Student (what many Jehovah's Witnesses refer to as the "evil slave class"), so we're accustom to similar remarks (persecutions as you like to call them) coming from our JW friends.

I personally believe that the Witnesses are closer to the truth than are the rest of the professing church (Catholics and Protestants), nevertheless there are distinctive doctrinal differences between the beliefs of Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses.

My research finds that the "Bible Student" movement stems from Charles Taze Russel, and Jehovah's witnesses?

What are the differences?

1.) Both Deny Jesus Is God Manifest In The Flesh John 1:1-3.

2.) Both Deny A Literal Place Of Torment, Hell?

3.) Both Deny A Godhead, Trinity?

Wikipedia: Bible Student movement is the name adopted by a Millennialist[1] Restorationist Christian movement that emerged from the teachings and ministry of Charles Taze Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. Members of the movement have variously referred to themselves as Bible Students, International Bible Students, Associated Bible Students, or Independent Bible Students. The origins of the movement are associated with the formation of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881.