The Two Witnesses

[revturmoil]

The Hebrews 9 Scripture is clear as to what place Christ was describing in Matthew 24. Not only that, but the "abomination of desolation" example from the Book of Daniel ALREADY... had an established blueprint pattern from what Antiochus IV did in 170 B.C. by going inside the Jerusalem temple to sacrifice swine upon the altar, and also setting up an idol abomination to Greek Zeus worship.

I assume you're talking about the holiest of all verses. That's the only 2 places those three words are used to describe "that place." The Greek terms that are specic to the holy of holies are not used in Mathew 24. And the word place isn't used in Hebrews 9. I already showed you what word for place Jesus would have likely used if that was his intent to describe the holy of holies. So your interpretation is already debunked by the text and the words used in them. These words are more specific than what you are willing to admit. It's all too common for people to go somewhere else to prove something. A good hermeneutic is violated in your method of interpretation.
http://www.bluelette...st+of+all&t=KJV

And I don't agree that Antiochus is the abomination Daniel and Jesus were talking about.

Antiochus was more an abomination of desecration. As a result of the current apostasy taking place in the Arab/Muslim world, the real one will soon manifest himself as a peacemaker.

 

[veteran]

I assume you're talking about the holiest of all verses. That's the only 2 places those three word are used to describe "that place." The Greek terms that are specic to the holies of holies are not used in Mathew 24. And the word place isn't used in Hebrews 9. So your interpretation is already debunked by the text and the words used in them. These words are more specific than what you are willing to admit. It's all too common for people to go somewhere else to prove something. A good hermeneutic is violated in your method of interpretation.
http://www.bluelette...st+of+all&t=KJV

You have yet to debunk the place our Lord Jesus was pointing His disciples to about the inside of the Jerusalem temple with an abomination idol setup in false worship (Matt.24; Mark 13). Reason of that is because you cannot destroy the history of Antiochus IV doing that very thing in 170 B.C., which of course was history before... Christ gave that warning. Nor can you delete how other acts Antiochus IV did which fit the Daniel 11 prophecy about the "abomination that maketh desolate" almost to a tee.

Yet because Christ Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel around 200 years after... Antiochus IV, He revealed He was speaking of the same kind of event Antiochus did that is to occur again sometime future involving a Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

I would suspect that orthodox Jewry definitely does not LIKE this truth being told, nor would the globalists of today who plan to use Jerusalem in the last days. Too bad I say.

 

[revturmoil]

You have yet to debunk the place our Lord Jesus was pointing His disciples to about the inside of the Jerusalem temple with an abomination idol setup in false worship (Matt.24; Mark 13). Reason of that is because you cannot destroy the history of Antiochus IV doing that very thing in 170 B.C., which of course was history before... Christ gave that warning. Nor can you delete how other acts Antiochus IV did which fit the Daniel 11 prophecy about the "abomination that maketh desolate" almost to a tee.

Let's look at Mathew 24 AGAIN! It's simple to debunk your theory about the words of Jesus. You are in denial and refuse to accept it!
Matthew 24:15 　When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
The holy place in Mathew 24:15 is 'topos'. It's not the Holy of Holies but simply the surrounding area of it as described in Strongs #5117.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G5117&t=KJV

1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
a place (passage) in a book
2) metaph.
a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
opportunity, power, occasion for acting

In Hebrews 9 the words 'holy place' are not found. The words "holiest of all" are. The word that's used for "holiest of all" or the "holy of holies" is katapetasma and is specific to the "holy of holies" and it is ONLY USED IN HEBREWS 9!
kat-ap-et'-as-mah from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen
(to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=2665

And again. It depends which word for place is used in "holy place" to determine what 'place' the author is indicating.

If Jesus wanted to infer the "holy place" as the "holy of holies' in Mathew 24:15, for the word 'place' he would have used the word 'katapetasma'.

kat-ap-et'-as-mah from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen
(to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=2665
BUT HE DIDN"T!

The word 'place' that Jesus used in Mathew 24:15 is 'topos' which indicates the entire temple area where the Dome of the Rock now stands!

topos...
1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
B) a place (passage) in a book
2) metaph.
a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
B) opportunity, power, occasion for acting
In Mathew 24:15 JESUS DID NOT SPECIFY THE HOLY OF HOLIES!

I don't like being so repetitious but in your denial you are having trouble grasping this also.

 

[veteran]

No amount of word changing studies is going to prevent false messiah coming to today's Jerusalem, with the majority of Jews bowing in ignorance to the "abomination of desolation" that false messiah is going to setup.

 

[revturmoil]

No amount of word changing studies is going to prevent false messiah coming to today's Jerusalem, with the majority of Jews bowing in ignorance to the "abomination of desolation" that false messiah is going to setup.

I'm just giving you the definitions of the words in the text(s). It's God's Word that uses different words. The only ones in ignorance about the abomination are most Christian's who believe the entire world will accept him.

I'm not changing any words or their meaning. YOU are in denial of them because it debunks your beliefs!

Like I said, "It's a wonderful thing to have so many words in Greek and Hebrew to describe the authors intent." Something you completely disregard!

 

[veteran]

I'm just giving you the definitions of the words in the text(s). It's God's Word that uses different words. The only ones in ignorance about the abomination are most Christian's who believe the entire world will accept him.

I'm not changing any words or their meaning. YOU are in denial of them because it debunks your beliefs!

Like I said, "It's a wonderful thing to have so many words in Greek and Hebrew to describe the authors intent." Something you completely disregard!

Those in ignorance are those who hold to beliefs of orthodox Jews like yourself. Go ahead, join with them in Jerusalem when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup in their rebuilt temple! Go ahead, BELIEVE THEM instead of Jesus of Nazareth The Messiah.

 

[revturmoil]

Those in ignorance are those who hold to beliefs of orthodox Jews like yourself. Go ahead, join with them in Jerusalem when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup in their rebuilt temple! Go ahead, BELIEVE THEM instead of Jesus of Nazareth The Messiah.

You have already joined them! You believe a temple needs to be rebuilt, then the abomination must then be revealed, then the temple animal sacrifices resumed, only to have them cease! That's what you believe in and I don't believe it!

That's a fabricated mess!

 

[veteran]

You have already joined them! You believe a temple needs to be rebuilt, then the abomination must then be revealed, then the temple animal sacrifices resumed, only to have them cease! That's what you believe in and I don't believe it!

That's a fabricated mess!

Just a little trip... to the Temple Mount Faithful site will show they have ALREADY STARTED ANIMAL SACRIFICES AGAIN!!

It's just not YET in a rebuilt temple upon the Temple Mount, but on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount! I can't recall how far back for sure, 1997 I think, when they starting doing passover animal sacrifices AGAIN!!

And you're going to listen to THEM AND THEIR DOCTRINES ABOUT THE END???

 

[revturmoil]

Just a little trip... to the Temple Mount Faithful site will show they have ALREADY STARTED ANIMAL SACRIFICES AGAIN!!

It's just not YET in a rebuilt temple upon the Temple Mount, but on a hill overlooking the Temple Mount! I can't recall how far back for sure, 1997 I think, when they starting doing passover animal sacrifices AGAIN!!

And you're going to listen to THEM AND THEIR DOCTRINES ABOUT THE END???

If the reconstruction of a temple was found in God's Word, I would believe it. The entire belief is a completely fabricated idea based on Daniel 9:27. There's no mention of a temple being rebuilt there or anywhere in scripture. Why do you think John was told not to measure the outer court? He was told that it's because it was given over to the gentiles! The temple mount is as we speak "given over to the gentiles!" Nothing needs to change to fulfill Daniel 9:27. That verse is also where the Protestants come up with a "peace treaty" between the man of sin and Israel.

A peace treaty in Daniel 9:27 is also a pipe dream and a completely fabricated mess and easy to debunk. Most Christians who listen to the big shots have fallen for it.

The Protestants teach that, 1. The man of sin will be revealed and give Israel permission to build a temple. 2. He will allow them to resume their animal sacrifices. 3. Then he will mandate that the Jews cease the sacrifices.

This is one of those issues that I'm not completely sure about. But from what I see there are too many 'fabrications' for this to come to pass when the prophecy could easily be fulfilled in the Dome or Al'Aqsa mosque and by stopping the Jews from their daily prayers at the wailing wall. (The oblation)

 

[veteran]

If the reconstruction of a temple was found in God's Word, I would believe it...

It can be found, but you've first got to believe what our Lord Jesus was pointing to in Matt.24 and Mark 13 in referring to the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation." What do you think the vision God gave Ezekiel in Ezek.8 & 9 was about? History?

Why is the reed John was given in Rev.11:1 LIKE a 'rod'? How is it he was told to go measure that temple of Rev.11, its altar, and those who worship INSIDE it, but leave off measuring the outer court, for the Gentiles will tread Jerusalem for 42 months? And how is it that Rev.11:8 reveals Jerusalem is where God's two witnesses will appear and prophesy?

The entire belief is a completely fabricated idea based on Daniel 9:27. There's no mention of a temple being rebuilt there or anywhere in scripture. Why do you think John was told not to measure the outer court? He was told that it's because it was given over to the gentiles! The temple mount is as we speak "given over to the gentiles!" Nothing needs to change to fulfill Daniel 9:27. That verse is also where the Protestants come up with a "peace treaty" between the man of sin and Israel.

If you've noticed, I have yet to even mention the Dan.9:27 verse in this, but only of how Christ pointed to the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel when teaching His disciples upon the Mount of Olives, while overlooking the 2nd temple. NO idol abomination has ever been setup in a temple in Jerusalem again since Antiochus IV did it in 170 B.C. Jesus gave that abomination prophecy around 200 years after... Antiochus did that. So He certainly was not pointing backwards in time, but forwards in time. The Romans never succeeded in placing the abomination of Daniel 11 either, for the 2nd temple burned down before they could gain access into it. I think our Lord has been very good to us in pointing this out for us, making it very simple, so simple a little child can understand it.

But those blinded, like the unbelieving Jews, they don't understand it, which is why they want to build another temple and start up the old sacrifices in Jerusalem again.

A peace treaty in Daniel 9:27 is also a pipe dream and a completely fabricated mess and easy to debunk. Most Christians who listen to the big shots have fallen for it.

The Protestants teach that, 1. The man of sin will be revealed and give Israel permission to build a temple. 2. He will allow them to resume their animal sacrifices. 3. Then he will mandate that the Jews cease the sacrifices.

This is one of those issues that I'm not completely sure about. But from what I see there are too many 'fabrications' for this to come to pass when the prophecy could easily be fulfilled in the Dome or Al'Aqsa mosque and by stopping the Jews from their daily prayers at the wailing wall. (The oblation)

It's not just Protestant Christianity that expects the coming of the Antichrist with the start of a peace treaty, much of the RCC believes that too, so who would YOU represent other than unbelieving Jews with your anti-Biblical doctrine on that??? I know many Messianic Jews, and they hold to a lot of the doctrines on this that you do, and lot of those ideas just so happen to originate from Judaism.


Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

Dan 11:21-23
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
(KJV)

Dan 11:28-31
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

What Christ was pointing in Matt.24 is pretty clear to me. Angry at God are you because He's going to bring these events upon Jerusalem for the end?

 

[revturmoil]

Stop with the angry at God junk would you!!! Just because we disagree doesn't mean we have to go the way of popeye and the scribler!

 

[veteran]

Stop with the angry at God junk would you!!! Just because we disagree doesn't mean we have to go the way of popeye and the scribler!

But that's exactly what I feel you're doing, maybe unconsciously, nevertheless angry because of the state of Jerusalem today.

Judaism has continually been attacking the pope and the RCC for a long time. But we've yet to see him fit any role Judaism throws upon him for the final antichrist involving Jerusalem.

Those continually pointing away... from Jerusalem for the endtime events are more aligned with doctrines from Satan's host than with God in His Word.

 

[revturmoil]

But that's exactly what I feel you're doing, maybe unconsciously, nevertheless angry because of the state of Jerusalem today.

Judaism has continually been attacking the pope and the RCC for a long time. But we've yet to see him fit any role Judaism throws upon him for the final antichrist involving Jerusalem.

Those continually pointing away... from Jerusalem for the endtime events are more aligned with doctrines from Satan's host than with God in His Word.

Listen Veteran,

I have no idea why you accuse me of being angry because of the state of Jerusalem today. We simply disgree. I have absolutely no idea why you speculate such stupid stuff! Smarten up man!!! You gotta be smoking too much weed in the barrel of an M-16 or something because I'm impressed at the your mystical clairvoyant skills telling me I'm angry at God because of the state of Jerusalem today. You just don't like being proven wrong! You're just like George Bush. You haven't even grown up yet!.

 

[BibleScribe]

Stop with the angry at God junk would you!!! Just because we disagree doesn't mean we have to go the way of popeye and the scribler!

Yeah, -- certainly we know that "kaoticprofit" is slanderer, but "veteran" you should have the integrity and righteousness of both Popeye and BibleScribe.



BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Like the U.S. commander of the 101st Airborne brigade said to the Germans from Bastogne, "Nuts!"

 

[revturmoil]

Like the U.S. commander of the 101st Airborne brigade said to the Germans from Bastogne, "Nuts!"

Why doesn't it surprise me that you militarize so many things!

 

[BibleScribe]

Like the U.S. commander of the 101st Airborne brigade said to the Germans from Bastogne, "Nuts!"

Battle of the Bulge

In December 1944, when the German army launched the surprise Battle of the Bulge, Major General Maxwell D. Taylor, commander of the 101st Airborne Division, was away, attending a staff conference in the United States. In Taylor's absence, acting command of the 101st and its attached troops fell to McAuliffe. At Bastogne, the 101st was besieged by a far-larger force of Germans under the command of General Heinrich Freiherr von Lüttwitz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_McAuliffe



What I didn't know, was that the future Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was the commander of the 101st.


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Why doesn't it surprise me that you militarize so many things!

You even sound just like a 'draftee'.

 

[veteran]

I watched a video once about U.S. soldiers awarded the Medal of Honor, the highest honor anyone serving in the U.S. military can receive.

A Korean war veteran U.S. Army soldier told of his acts that got him chosen for that medal. His U.S. Army unit was told to attack a hill where the Communist Chinese were entrenched. As they went up the hill, all of those in his platoon were wounded or killed going up, and he was the only one left still going up the hill on one flank of the trenches.

When he got to the trench where the Chinese soldiers were, he jumped in right in front of one of the Chinese soldiers and tried to fire his weapon, but forget it needed a reload. The Chinese soldier pointed his weapon point blank at him, but his weapon misfired. He said the Chinese soldier then looked up above his head, and a ghostly fright came over his expression, and the Chinese soldier ran away down the trench. Then he said he reloaded his weapon, and continued down the trench attacking the remaining Chinese soldiers, and they fled inside a sandbag bunker and closed the door.

He then tried to pry the door open and pitch grenades in, and the Chinese would suddenly open the door and pitch a grenade out at him. That wounded him.

He then retreated leaving the trench, and the Chinese soldiers came out after him, firing at him. On his way down, he picked up one wounded U.S. soldier and began dragging another with him. And then he said he started giggling, and then laughing. There were Chinese Communist soldiers right behind him chasing him, firing point blank, and they couldn't hit him.

Those down the hill, like one U.S. artillery officer and his fellow wounded soldiers, witnessed this. But that wasn't all. The guy kept going down the hill to supply and got all the grenades he could carry in his jacket, and went right back up that hill at the Communist Chinese soldiers. He emptied his jacket full of grenades at them up the hill and in the same trench he'd gone before, and then came back down the hill to his own lines, still bearing his wounds from the Chinese grenades.

Question: Just what did that Communist Chinese soldier see when he looked above the guy's head, and turned pale and ran? No doubt, angels.


A similar situation happened in WWII, except with a conscientious objector who would only agree to serve in battle as a medic. His name was Desmond Doss, a U.S. Medal of Honor winner in WWII. Desmond Doss was a devout Christian, and I must point out because the event requires it, he was a Seventh Day Adventist (you know how determined they are about holding a 7th day Sabbath like Old Testament times; nothing wrong with that).

An object his Army unit was assigned to attack on a certain island in the Pacific was against Japanese machine gunners upon a ridge back a few hundred yards from the ridge. The ridge was like a cliff really (per photo I'd seen taken of Desmon during the ordeal). His unit was ordered to attack on the Adventist's Sabbath. And the soldiers begged their commander to talk with Desmon. Desmon suggested they not go that day, but allow him to keep that Sabbath day, and in prayer. The commander (a captain if I recall) finally agreed, since the men were determined to not go up there without Desmon.

Then when the Sabbath was over, Desmon climbed the rope up the cliff, standing on top in full fire of the Japanese, and waved his fellow-soldiers to come up (when a photo of him was taken that I saw). Brave or crazy, you decide, but no doubt he knew His God was with him.

As soon as the men got to the top, they were in a clearing directly in fire of the Japanese positions, so they were immediately in the open when they reached the top of the cliff. Many of the men were wounded in that attack, including the commander, with Desmon dragging the wounded down that cliff by a rope, back and forth, one after another, in full open of Japanese fire.

Desmon was wounded during all this, but not enough to stop him. He saved something like 75 wounded U.S. soldiers hauling them down that cliff in full fire by the Japanese, including his captain commander that was wounded. After the war, a Japanese soldier involved in that battle remembered how they had tried to shoot Desmon several times, but their weapons kept miss-firing, one said three different times.

(I'm not a 7th Day Adventist, but I find this true event about Desmon Doss truly a sign of God's Hand among His people.)

 

[revturmoil]

You even sound just like a 'draftee'.

Enough with the war stories. I bet you have a bunch!

Got it wrong again you numskull! I volunteered just like you! I'm just not proud of it like you are. The US military was the most unorganized place I ever worked. And they had the most unqualified people I ever seen anywhere. (And I was in a military police unit!) That's one reason why we lost so many people in Vietnam.