The Two Witnesses

[Prentis]

My point is that the Rapture is very real. If you read the posts above you will find one who argues that there is no rapture. I am giving scripture that says there is so we don't have to worry about this one who doesn't see it. I also hope that he will read this and realize that our hope is the rapture. When the earth is cleansed in fire at the end of Christ's millennial reign only those who are spirit will remain. All flesh will be burned away. He argues that we will not be caught up in the rapture, however, scripture says we will. He needs to come into agreement to scripture.
Sorry about that.
Is my point clear now?

Ok. I understand where you are going with this.

I do not know if there will be a rapture or not, and won't debate on the subject. But I wish to touch on something you said.

You said that "our hope is the rapture".

I have to disagree most strongly with that. Our hope is that Christ is in us, and that he that is in us, Christ, is greater than he that is in the world. We fear no earthly suffering or peril. We do not fear death or persecution. Our hope is in God.

 

[LambOfChrist]

kaoticprofit I disagree that the man of sin will be authenticate himself as the abomination...not in a rebuilt temple, but in the Dome of the Rock or Al'Aqsa mosque. Scripture says he will sit in the temple show himself that he is god. We do you not accept this scripture? Furthermore, if anyone was to sit in the Dome on the rock and say he was God the Muslims would kill him. This wicked one is not Muslim. He doesn't show himself until the last 5 months of this time. He is the King of those who come from the pit in Rev 9. He is not the little horn or the prince of the covenant. He is still in the pit when they play out their part.
I perceive that you do not have a revelation of the pit. Few do.
Look at this scripture:
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Have you ever heard of a hollow earth? Like on the movie “Journey to the center of the Earth” Try to understand this concept and your understanding will open like a rose.
The only way anyone can explain Rev 9, if the earth is not hollow, is if the say it is symbolic. There is one revelation that makes these entire scripture literal. The pit is a real pit in the earth. To the best of my knowledge it is at the North Pole but is invisible because it is flooded with ocean waters. This is why most cannot realize it. Like any revelation in scripture, there are thousands to argue against it.
Look at Genesis 6 and the flood. It is taught that it rained 40 days and 40 nights and the water rose to the top of Mount Everest. Do you know that this would be virtually impossible? If a torrential rain over 24 hours could raise the sea level 100 feet (it couldn’t) 40 days would only give you 4000 ft. Double that just for arguments sake. That’s 8000 ft. Mt Everest is 29000 feet above sea level. So does the bible lie?
If you know anything about Christ you know that Jesus is the Word made flesh and that he is god and that it is impossible for god to lie.
So where did the water come from?
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
There was water stored under pressure beneath the surface. Enough water to raise the sea level 29000 ft. To make us appreciate this even more, there is evidence on the ocean floors that the sea level was about 5000 ft lower before the flood. There are rivers around the globe cut deep into the ocean floors and pyramids built on the ocean floor. Then there is the idea of an expanding earth where the earth was once less than half its present size. At the time of the flood, the crusts cracked and continents formed and drifted apart. This theory makes a lot of sense and gives a place for the water to go after the flood.
There is a lot more evidence that the earth is hollow. But this is enough to give you the idea. Inside the earth there is a star at the core that shines down through 2500 miles of atmosphere onto a lush forested surface with rivers and lakes and birds and bees animals and people (of a sort). There is a huge following for this idea but few understand how it relates to scripture.
The” beast that once was” used to live on the surface out here. He’s not because he doesn’t live here anymore, he is because he lives inside and will ascend from the pit and go into perdition. Voila!
Rev 17 says there are 7 kings. 5 have fallen, one is and one is yet to come and the eighth I one of the 7 and goes into perdition. Hmm
This was written in about 87 A.D. So at that time 5 of these kings had already died, one still lived and the 7[sup]th[/sup] was not yet born (he is the little horn). At first I thought these were Caesars but there was no way to get 5 dead and one alive to fit. There were many Caesars. Then the idea of Herod just popped into my head. I wasn’t even thinking. I had given up.
Herod the Great - (73 BCE - 4 BCE)
Herod Archelaus - (23 BC – 18 AD)
Herod Phillip - (27 BC - 33 AD)
Herod Antipas – (20 BC – died after 39 AD)
Herod Agrippa I - (10 BCE - 44 CE)
Herod Agrippa II - (28 CE - 93 CE)
There were 5 Herod prior to 87 A.D. who no longer lived on the earth. The sixth was the only one left. This was Agrippa II. He died in 93 A.D. If these were the kings the Angel was referring to then one of them never died. I know this is a weird concept but humor me.
Antipas was the Herod that had John the Baptist’s head removed and it was he who mocked Jesus before the crucifixion. According to Wikipedia: In 39 AD Antipas was accused by his nephew Agrippa I of conspiracy against the new Roman emperor Caligula, who sent him into exile in Gaul. Accompanied there by Herodias, he died at an unknown date. Many historians claim he died in 39 because this was the last record of his life. However, it has been said that he went inland from Gaul and into the mountains of Tibet where he disappeared never to be found.
I believe he found a way through mountain caves into the interior where he was set up as ruler and will ascend once again when God says it is time.
Now the issue of his age comes to question. If he is still alive then he would be over 2000 years old now. If you read the first 5 books of genesis you will find that it was not uncommon for men to live as much as 969 years old. If when the foundations of the great deep burst open the humid atmosphere of the interior rushed out here and pushed our ozone layer higher into the sky stretching it much thinner than it had been before, then is it possible that this is the reason we only live for 1- 120 years today on the surface.
My point is this. If we on the surface could live for 1000 years under a different atmosphere, why couldn’t they live 2000 or 3000 years inside in a different atmosphere?
There are many mysteries that will only be revealed in time. This, I believe, will be one of them.
Herod always wanted to be King over Jerusalem. This might explain why the beast from the pit sits in the Temple in Jerusalem instead of in Rome, London or Washington.
Have fun with this one.
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Tell me what you see and I will tell you what I see and then we will both see more clearly.
Correct me if you think I am wrong, and I will correct you when I think you are wrong and, praise Jesus, together we might get it right.

 

[LambOfChrist]

Ok. I understand where you are going with this. I do not know if there will be a rapture or not, and won't debate on the subject. But I wish to touch on something you said. You said that "our hope is the rapture". I have to disagree most strongly with that. Our hope is that Christ is in us, and that he that is in us, Christ, is greater than he that is in the world. We fear no earthly suffering or peril. We do not fear death or persecution. Our hope is in God.

O the joy of communication. I rolled back when I read that. I mean that in joy man.
We can't go in the rapture if Christ be not in us. We see the same only you need a revelation of the rapture.
I had an interesting experience once with the Lord that helps me understand this.
I was in my bunk praying and reading my bible when I was overcome with emotion over my unbelieving teen-age kids. I love them dearly but they won't believe (Yet). Anyway, while in the spirit I cried out to the Lord for mercy. Before I had the words out of my mouth I felt a tingling sensation come over me. I don't mean goosebumps. I mean like a mild shock beginning at my feet and coming up through my body. My bowels began to dump without my control and my stomach began to come up into my mouth. I froze instantly and started analyzing it with my mind. As soon as I started thinking on it everything subsided and went away. I prayed after and I am sure the Holy Spirit revealed that God was transforming me but my flesh got in the way.
Now you may think I am nut, I don't care, but that really happened and it sounds just like what the rapture will be like, though it is not described that way. To the flesh it sounds gross, but who cares what this flesh thinks. If we bring it into submission to the Spirit we will live forever.
If you are obedient to Christ you will be raptured because the bible says so. And this is because you are filled with his presence.

 

[LambOfChrist]

Your so funny. You say still no rapture. We are not being caught up then even though Paul said we were. to the Thessalonians. Those who say we will be and are obedient will be because they agree with the word and confess the word. Those who refuse to believe the word and confess with there mouth and believe in their heart that we won't be caught up... well.. my guess is they won't be caught up.
You don't surprise me. People argue that Allah is Lord when you give them proof. They say white does not mean white. Why should this be any different. I say caught up means caught up. Your return with caught up does not mean caught up.
O well. Believe what you want, we are just believing the word is true and you are not.
This is no different then talking to a pre-trib believer or someone who believes in once saved always saved. We say the word, they say what they think. J.W.'s don't believe in hell, that doesn't mean there is no hell. Jesus said there is so I will believe him, you believe what you will.
My guess is they majored in philosophy and can't relate anymore. It is green to you but maybe it is purple to me. there are no absolutes. Well well. I say are there absolutely no absolutes.

 

[HammerStone]

Christ > Rapture

Period. The whole forest for the tree (in this case), thing. It is the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ. That whole Bible is not about the Rapture (or whatever term we use), but is about Jesus.

 

[THE Gypsy]

Christ > Rapture

Period. The whole forest for the tree (in this case), thing. It is the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ. That whole Bible is not about the Rapture (or whatever term we use), but is about Jesus.

I'm going to have to keep that one for future use.

 

[revturmoil]

Christ > Rapture

Period. The whole forest for the tree (in this case), thing. It is the book of Revelation of Jesus Christ. That whole Bible is not about the Rapture (or whatever term we use), but is about Jesus.

Too many people base their prophetic beliefs around the timing of the rapture.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I pretty much agree with you.

The man of sin will authenticate himself as the abomination...not in a rebuilt temple, but in the Dome of the Rock or Al'Aqsa mosque.

You are both wrong what bibles are you reading ? The abomination that causes desolation whatever it is will be set up in Jerusalem it says so in Daniel and revalation I think you guys are confused.

 

[Prentis]

O the joy of communication. I rolled back when I read that. I mean that in joy man.
We can't go in the rapture if Christ be not in us. We see the same only you need a revelation of the rapture.
I had an interesting experience once with the Lord that helps me understand this.
I was in my bunk praying and reading my bible when I was overcome with emotion over my unbelieving teen-age kids. I love them dearly but they won't believe (Yet). Anyway, while in the spirit I cried out to the Lord for mercy. Before I had the words out of my mouth I felt a tingling sensation come over me. I don't mean goosebumps. I mean like a mild shock beginning at my feet and coming up through my body. My bowels began to dump without my control and my stomach began to come up into my mouth. I froze instantly and started analyzing it with my mind. As soon as I started thinking on it everything subsided and went away. I prayed after and I am sure the Holy Spirit revealed that God was transforming me but my flesh got in the way.
Now you may think I am nut, I don't care, but that really happened and it sounds just like what the rapture will be like, though it is not described that way. To the flesh it sounds gross, but who cares what this flesh thinks. If we bring it into submission to the Spirit we will live forever.
If you are obedient to Christ you will be raptured because the bible says so. And this is because you are filled with his presence.

Haha... The joys of communication, yes.

First of all, I have no problems with you believing this, though I don't see it. I have no problem because you say "if you are obedient to Christ you will be raptured because the bible says so". Whether right or wrong that there is a rapture, I see it as inoffensive because you point to Christ and obeying him, which is what matters. I say all this because I've heard people that would say things like 'if you know the rapture is coming, you will be raptured'. Basically it was about head knowledge to them, not Christ. Christ is what matters.

Only there is one thing I'd like to say. I might be completely wrong, but this is what I see according to the understanding given me. Our flesh that gets in the way is not so much the physical, as it is our carnality. I offer simply to consider the understanding that you have of what the Lord told you. When we let our mind and understanding get in the way (as you were trying to analyze the Lords work in your head), then the Lord's work is stumped. It must sink in to our heart. God has given us the ability to walk in the Spirit, and to have Christ live instead of us, through us. Then he is in us and we are in him. The stumbling block I would say is more our carnal ways and nature than the body itself.

What I see is that we can walk in the Spirit now, and if we do this, God will give us a new body... Whatever way he decides to do it

Anyways, that's what I'm seeing. Blessings in our Lord

 

[tgwprophet]

vetran wrote: I don't understand why you would think God's two witnesses won't be enough to shake the beast system up in that time?

Ok, the two witnesses will definately shake the beast. I should have clarified by adding tht the two witnesses could not possibly hope nor try to wake the world up with tactics of peace, love, grace, kindness, as Jesus did. The two witnesses way of wking the world is through power, power such as Jesus will use upon his return. The two wtnesses are warrioirs paving a way for the Lion of God not the Lamb of God. I hope that clarifies my previous posting.

 

[tgwprophet]

kaoticprofit wrote:
"But I say. A united global religion is a false teaching! There's not one verse that supports it!"

I agree with you. to back this up... consider those whose religion is a belief in "no" God. Can there be a "peaceful" acceptance of all the diverse religions of the world, yes. But, not a one world religion. They can co-exist in a peaceful manner under one roof - so to speak but, certainly not a one world religion. I find it impossible to believe in No God and A God at the same time.



Comm.Arnold wrote:
"They will probably be two new biblical figures and they will make up an even newer bible."

The two witnesses are not here to re-cite nor re-write scripture but rather to write some new scripture. There is an Old Testament, a New Testament and we will certainly have a next Testament. OH, take this further... It was claimed that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament... However that theory in its outline, provides no ability for a next Testament as when you bind them together they have no "new" wisdoms, merely old ones combined together. The Old testament has clear differences from the New Testament and so too will the next Testament.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

kaoticprofit wrote:
"But I say. A united global religion is a false teaching! There's not one verse that supports it!"

I agree with you. to back this up... consider those whose religion is a belief in "no" God. Can there be a "peaceful" acceptance of all the diverse religions of the world, yes. But, not a one world religion. They can co-exist in a peaceful manner under one roof - so to speak but, certainly not a one world religion. I find it impossible to believe in No God and A God at the same time.



Comm.Arnold wrote:
"They will probably be two new biblical figures and they will make up an even newer bible."

The two witnesses are not here to re-cite nor re-write scripture but rather to write some new scripture. There is an Old Testament, a New Testament and we will certainly have a next Testament. OH, take this further... It was claimed that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament... However that theory in its outline, provides no ability for a next Testament as when you bind them together they have no "new" wisdoms, merely old ones combined together. The Old testament has clear differences from the New Testament and so too will the next Testament.

Well said Terry, there were prophecies fullfilled from the old testament and this Next Testament might be the best one yet ...

 

[tgwprophet]

Sugarhitman wrote:
"Moses diesd so therefore "It is appointed men to die once, after this judgementt,"

The part I would ;ike considered is where it syas "after this judgement" - Here we can see Elijah or Enoch can still fulfill the understanding that it is appointed for all men to die the first death, but at the very least, after judgement, and after armageddon. This can easily validate understanding that those taken plus the 144,000 plus Enoch and Elijah indeed fulfill scripture, but after the first judgement and after Armageddon.

Vetran wrote:
"Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticksstanding before the God of the earth.
(KJV)"

Why npt leave the 7 alone and understand the two witnesses are the olive trees and candlesticks the stand before the thrpne. They are not "of" the 7 and their position is of both fireand mercy. At judgement and during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus, these twp have their position next to the throne. During Judgement these two witnesses provide both mercy and fire (not the mercy or fire of God or Jesus but as a supporting cast) the mercy of God or the fire of Hell according to thier testimony as a witness. The two witnesses are not Jewish, but Christain and therefore do not reside with the 7.

Rev. 1:20
"1:20 The mistery of the seven churches and the angels." - This does not imply the two witnesses are part of the 7. It's reference is to the 7 candlesiks and to the 7 olive trees. Consider the two witnesses a being not of the 7, but rather standing alone, away from the 7as proof the Christains (gentiles) are accepted by God.

 

[veteran]

.....
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Tell me what you see and I will tell you what I see and then we will both see more clearly.
Correct me if you think I am wrong, and I will correct you when I think you are wrong and, praise Jesus, together we might get it right.

I've heard of the hollow earth theory being the bottomless pit, but it still does not align with God's Word. Why? Simple, because Satan is an angelic type being, specifically a heavenly cherub. He was able to appear before God's throne in the Book of Job, and also to Jesus when tempting Him in the wilderness. The bottomless pit is IN the heavenly dimension. If it were inside the earth then it would mean God's Abode in Heaven could be on another planet in another solar system. Problem is, both inside the earth and other solar systems are still part of our MATERIAL EARTHLY DIMENSION.

The idea of the beast king our Lord Jesus mentioned is a bit tricky, which means we need to pay careful attention to the Scripture...

Rev 17:7-13
7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

In Rev.13 John was shown two separate visions of two different 'beast' types. The first 'beast' is about a kingdom, but the second 'beast' is about a man. We're supposed to remember that when reading in Rev.17 which defines those beasts further. Which one is this 'beast' that carries the woman, and has ten horns and seven heads? It's the FIRST BEAST of Rev.13:1-2. Our Lord referred us back to the Book of Daniel about that ten horned beast, and in Rev.12:3-4 we were to also remember the ten horned, seven headed, SEVEN crowned beast that Satan originally rebelled against God with. All that is pointing to the old beast kingdom pattern from the Book of Daniel which covered 4 separate beast kingdoms setup at different times on earth.

So already, before we got here to Rev.17, we were supposed to know all that. It's part of our Bible reference for interpreting these Rev.17 descriptions about the idea of a 'beast'. So this particular 'beast' in verse 7 is about a kingdom type beast, the one of Rev.13:1 which is a type of the one in Rev.12:3-4 that Satan first rebelled with. Yet this 'beast' description is going to change types pretty quickly as we continue in Rev.17...


8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The 'beast' John saw was symbolic, not literal. It symbolically carried the woman per the vision. But here we're given a major clue that this particular 'beast' of this verse 8 is not the one with ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads, but instead the "another beast" entity given back at Rev.13:11 forward, which is about a certain man.

Who were we told back at Rev.9 that is the 'angel of the bottomless pit'? None other than Satan himself. Rev.9 gives two names for him, Apollyon in the Greek and Abaddon in the Hebrew, which means Destroyer. The Greek word Apollyon comes from the Greek word for this word "perdition", the idea to perish. We obviously know the beast system of ten horns is to perish, but this particular 'beast' of verse 8 is about a man, the second beast of Rev.13, the "another beast". Who is already... judged and sentenced to perdition in the lake of fire? Satan and his angels only. No one else has been sentenced to perish yet. So that's yet another clue given here in verse 8 as to the identity of this particular 'beast' that was, and is not, and shall come up out of the bottomless pit.

When he comes, the whole world will wonder over him, all those who's names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Only God's elect will understand because it's given to them to know.

Now the Scripture is going to do another subject jump; this time back to the seven heads symbol of the first beast, a kingdom beast...

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Per God's Word, mountains are symbolic of regions of powers on earth. The seven heads are about seven regions on the earth which the beast kingdom will manifest upon. I believe it means the 7 continents, i.e., encompassing the whole earth. I don't see any nation left out of its zone of control. The woman will sit upon ONE of those seven heads, which will probably be the specific head that suffers the deadly wound that is healed per Rev.13.

Now the Scripture is going to do another subject jump, this time back to the subject of the second beast, a certain man...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Now the subject is back to the 2nd beast idea and we're shown it's about a 'king' as this 'beast' type. This beast king must be associated with the Bible references our Lord Jesus already gave us, back at Rev.13:2 from Daniel 7 about the old beast kingdoms, which mentioned 4 beast kingdoms. This verse is about the kings over those old beast kingdoms of Dan.7.

There was the old king of Babylon, Pharoah of Egypt, the king of Assyria, the king of Medo-Persia, and the king of Grecia. Those were the main beast kingdoms of OT history which God gave His prophets to write about the most. The one that was in John's days was emperor Domitian over the pagan Roman empire. The seventh king was still expecting in John's day, and is also still expecting today as the coming Antichrist.


11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The subject is still on the 2nd beast type of Rev.13, a beast 'king', a certain person. We're given another pointer to Satan with that idea of perdition, because remember, not even ANY of the old beast kings of history have even been assigned to perish in the lake of fire yet today. Only Satan as a false king is already sentenced to perish, so that perdition idea given with this is very important, and narrows the identity of this beast king right down to its nuts and bolts. Satan is this beast king that was, and is not, and will be the 8th beast king after Christ's thousand years regin when he is loosed one more time upon the earth to deceive the nations. Satan is OF the seven because he is given control over the pagan beast kings and kingdoms of history. The number seven represents completion per God's Word, and Satan will be this 7th beast king as the coming Antichrist.


12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

Now the subject is back on the kingdom beast with ten horns, and lo and behold we're shown those ten horns represent ten kings that will rule concurrent with each other (at the same time). We're also shown they won't even come to power until the 7th beast king shows up, and then they will together will give their power over to that 7th beast king, the Antichrist.

Considering the beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4, it is different in one respect, it had only SEVEN crowns instead of 10. The beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 has TEN crowns if you'll check. How does that fit within this? Why should we not forget that Rev.12:3-4 beast kingdom when interpreting this Rev.17 part?...

It's because the beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 which Satan first rebelled with represents the PATTERN for ALL the beast kingdoms of history, and the final one for the end of this world. The pagan beast kingdoms of OT history like Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, Egypt, Tyre, etc., all represent Satan's attempt to establish a world kingdom over the earth like the one that existed when he first coveted God's Throne. This is why we find the "king of kings" title applied to the king of Babylon and king of Medo-Persia back in the OT prophets. The true King of kings Title applies only to our Lord Jesus Christ. This should make it easier to grasp why this final beast kingdom given in Revelation by our Lord Jesus should cause your mind to perk up relating to Satan's first beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4. He's going to try to establish his version of God's Kingdom on earth in the last days prior to Christ's return. And if you look, that beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 is busy forming up today to cover all the earth and all peoples.

 

[Prentis]

i only know of two witnesses, the old testament and the new testament and 144,000 will cary the message,

Well, someone's made up their mind to the point of shunning anyone who doesn't see it!

Love ya brother, I just think we need to stay receptive to the Spirit and willing to expand our understanding if we want the Lord to speak to us.

Personally, I don't have the answer. But I know that the way to go is always humility and meekness!

Much love in our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Ben-Menashe]

 

[revturmoil]

LambofChrist said,

kaoticprofit I disagree that the man of sin will be authenticate himself as the abomination...not in a rebuilt temple, but in the Dome of the Rock or Al'Aqsa mosque. Scripture says he will sit in the temple show himself that he is god. We do you not accept this scripture?

I do accept that scripture. The word temple in 2 Thes. 2:4 is the same word used for a heathen shrine.
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)

2) any heathen temple or shrine
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3485&t=KJV
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=3485

Another thing.

In Revelation 11, the Apostle John was instructed to measure the temple. "But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months." (Rev. 11:2) These 42 months, or three and one half years, make up the time of the great tribulation, the time when the Assyrian antichrist will trample on the holy city, Jerusalem. The abomination will be set up in the outer courts, the court of the Gentiles, or on a wing of the temple. This is likely one of the Islamic sites already located there. It doesn't mean a temple needs to be rebuilt. The religious complex of the Dome or Al'Aqsa mosque is sufficient to fulfill this prophecy.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

For the word temple in verse 4, Vine's Expository dictionary of New Testament words say's,
Shrine:

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
The holy place...not a rebuilt temple!

Mark 13:14 (NIV84)
14 "When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
One translation of Daniel 9:27 is..
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

A better translation of Daniel 9:27. The word temple isn't used!
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
FYI...This covenant isn't a peace treaty.

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Sanctuary means "sacred place" not a temple.
And again I don't see the necessity of rebuilding a temple.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

People are saying that in order for this prophecy to pass a temple needs to be rebuilt so that animal sacrifes can resume only to have them cease!
I don't agree! But can admit I'm not absolutely positive of this.

Jesus said that not one stone would be left upon another. There still are stones upon another on the Wailing Wall which is the retaining wall to Herods' Temple. Maybe those stones have yet to be thrown down and maybe the cessation of the daily sacrifice is the end of the daily prayers that the Jews do every day at the wall. I don't think there's any proof that I know of that the daily sacrifice is animal sacrifices. The word sacrifice doesn't even appear in the original text of Daniel 11:31 or 12:11.

In Hebrews 9:25 the holy place is...
http://www.bluelette...rongs=G39&t=KJV
In Acts 21:28 and Mt. 24:15 the holy place is a little different...
http://www.bluelette...rongs=G40&t=KJV
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G5117&t=KJV

If Jesus in Mathew 24 wanted to indicate the "holy of holies" in Mathew 24:15 he would have likely used this word...bold is mine.

2665. katapetasma kat-ap-et'-as-mah from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen
(to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=2665

BUT HE DIDN'T!

The holy place in Mathew 24:15 is not the Holy of Holies but simply the surrounding area of it as described in Strongs #5117.

1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
a place (passage) in a book
2) metaph.
a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
opportunity, power, occasion for acting

Furthermore, if anyone was to sit in the Dome on the rock and say he was God the Muslims would kill him.

Why do you say that? Muslim's are waiting for their (false) messiah too! They would be thrilled to see someone whom they admired, died, and then returned again!

This wicked one is not Muslim. He doesn't show himself until the last 5 months of this time. He is the King of those who come from the pit in Rev 9. He is not the little horn or the prince of the covenant. He is still in the pit when they play out their part.
I perceive that you do not have a revelation of the pit. Few do.

I say the wicked one is a Muslim. But that's and entire discussion of it's own. Tell me about 'the pit'.

 

[veteran]

The "holy place" Christ was pointing out to His disicples upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 directly involves the altar inside the temple at Jerusalem.


Heb 9:25
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
(KJV)

The Hebrew 9:25 "holy place" is what's referred to in Exodus 30...



Exod 30:6-10
6 And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee.
7 And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it.
8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations.
9 Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
(KJV)

 

[revturmoil]

What's the matter Veteran? Can't see the difference???

You tend to lump all these things together just like you do with other words.

Holy place in Mathew 24 is 'topos' and it means....

1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
a place (passage) in a book
2) metaph.
a) the condition or station held by one in any company or assembly
opportunity, power, occasion for acting
When [sup]3752[/sup] ye therefore [sup]3767[/sup] shall see [sup]1492[/sup] the abomination [sup]946[/sup] of desolation [sup]2050[/sup], spoken of [sup]4483[/sup] by [sup]1223[/sup] Daniel [sup]1158[/sup] the prophet [sup]4396[/sup], stand [sup]2476[/sup] [sup]2476[/sup] in [sup]1722[/sup] the holy [sup]40[/sup] place [sup]5117[/sup], (whoso readeth [sup]314[/sup] , let him understand [sup]3539[/sup]

If Jesus wanted to be more specific he would have used the word 'katapetasma'....

2665. katapetasma kat-ap-et'-as-mah from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen
(to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=2665

Look at how many words there are for 'place' in the NT. And again look at 2665, "the holy of holies."

http://www.eliyah.co...n&isindex=place

But just like in the case of the word all, satan, and angel, you make your own blanket definitions and lump them all into one meaning. That's a big mistake.

It's a wonderful thing to have so many words in Greek and Hebrew to describe the authors intent. And sometimes there's a clear mis-translation of it in the KJV. (which has over 100 mistakes in it).

In his choice of words, Jesus was not being as specific as he could have. The word 'topos' for place indicates to me that Jesus is refering to the entire temple area "to include the holy of holies." The word katapetasma is specific to the holy of holies.

If these words all meant the same thing there would be no reason for the several other Greek words for place in the NT. = AH! But that 'hermeneutic' debunks your beliefs so why would you want to accept that???!!!

 

[veteran]

The Hebrews 9 Scripture is clear as to what place Christ was describing in Matthew 24. Not only that, but the "abomination of desolation" example from the Book of Daniel ALREADY... had an established blueprint pattern from what Antiochus IV did in 170 B.C. by going inside the Jerusalem temple to sacrifice swine upon the altar, and also setting up an idol abomination to Greek Zeus worship.


ANTIOCHUS
At last Antiochus, when checked at Alexandria, met the Egyptian king at Memphis, and "both spoke lies at one table," trying to deceive one another. In his capture of Jerusalem, guided by Menelaus the high priest "against the holy covenant," he took away the golden altar, candlestick, vessels of gold and silver from the temple, sacrificed swine on the altar, and sprinkled swine broth through the temple; his spoils from it amounted 1,800 talents.
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)

"Since the third son of Antiochus III was not in direct line for the Seleucid throne, he was sent to Rome as a hostage after his father's defeat by the Romans (189 BCE) . Fourteen years later (175 BCE) his older brother, Seleucus IV, secured his release shortly before being murdered by his own chief minister. Antiochus avenged his brother's death & claimed the throne instead of his nephew, Demetrius, who was a 12 year old hostage in Rome. When Ptolemy VI sought to occupy Palestine, Antiochus moved swiftly to defeat & claim control of most of Egypt & Cyprus (169 BCE). Despite these victories, however, Roman intervention on behalf of the Ptolemaic kingdom deprived him of all his territorial gains. His retreat (166 BCE) set the stage for the Jewish revolt led by Judah Maccabee (165 BCE).
Antiochus' lack of lasting military achievements was offset by his policy of Hellenization. He was not only a lavish benefactor of shrines to Greek gods across the eastern Mediterranean -- including the temple of Zeus at Athens --, in territories he controlled he actively promoted the cult of the living ruler founded by his father, representing himself as the manifestation of the supreme god, Zeus (hence the epithet epiphanes). Thus, he turned the advancement of Greek culture into a political tool to publicize his own claims of absolute power. And as the supreme god incarnate he assumed personal responsibility for all religious cult within his realm.
Soon after he assumed the Seleucid throne (175 BCE), Antiochus filled the vacant office of high priest of the Jewish temple state in Jerusalem (which his father had brought under Seleucid control a quarter of a century earlier) with a Hellenized Judean priest who took the Greek name Jason, but replaced him in 172 BCE with his brother Menelaus, on promise of greater tribute. To curry Antiochus' support, these rival priests completely Hellenized Jerusalem, promoting Greek culture & building a gymnasium for Olympic sport.
While Antiochus was conquering Egypt (169 BCE), Jason's forces recaptured Jerusalem & slaughtered supporters of Menelaus. Returning from Egypt (167 BCE) Antiochus sacked Jerusalem & rebuilt it as a Seleucid fortress. Torah observance was outlawed & the imperial cult brought into the Jewish temple itself with the erection of a statue of Antiochus as Zeus with a Hellenistic altar of sacrifice. Jews who resisted were subject to execution.

from: http://virtualreligion.net/iho/antiochus_4.html