The vast range of Greys between Black and White

[Willie T]

I think a lot boils down to many people being afraid to admit they just don't know some things.... for fear they will label themselves as "less righteous and Holy" if they do not swear they have been "led into all knowledge" by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Waiting on him]

I think a lot boils down to many people being afraid to admit they just don't know some things.... for fear they will label themselves as "less righteous and Holy" if they do not swear they have been "led into all knowledge" by the Holy Spirit.

Lol, I truly believe there’s gonna be a time when Jesus interprets all scripture to us directly. I believe He’ll even interpret the spaces between the words.

 

[friend of]

(Why in the world would God ever prefer us to be Cold

Because of the contrast that a stark lack of faith presents to a person. God only needs to give them a wake up call to realize how far from true life they are. Can't do that with someone who thinks they are saved but actually aren't and are just going through the motions when its convenient for them. At least with a cold nonexistent faith people can be made to realize how much they really need God.

 

[FollowHim]

Revelation 7:15 KJV
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Maybe it’s all a perspective issue?
Tecarta Bible

"day and night" appears to be a reference back to eternal, without a break. The idea that night exists in the Lords presence, suggests a source of light separate from Him alone. The Lord does not sleep, so the phrase only makes sense refering back to earth and the experience those brought out of the tribulation had been living under. Our understanding of night and day is the subjective experience of a planet rotating, which is not applicable to the Lord and His presence.

There is another thought that the new Jerusalem exists within a solar system, with a sun etc. but the Lord still outshines it all.
Outside the city there still would be night and day.

Perspective is certainly a limitation of language, and approximation to meet speaking to a specific situation limits how it is described.
The whole book of revelation is not chronological, but jumps around, so simple analogies are not helpful to follow.
For instance talking about a city as a woman, is a metaphor of influence and intention, and the authority this influence stands on.

Equally the book talks about the last day, yet goes back to periods prior to the final end. Such complexities can easily result in over emphasis on literal reading of the pictures rather than seeing the intentions and outcomes which are reflected throughout scripture.

 

[FollowHim]

Lol, I truly believe there’s gonna be a time when Jesus interprets all scripture to us directly. I believe He’ll even interpret the spaces between the words.

I actually think the opposite is actually closer to the truth. Scripture is full of pictures that apply to many situations and circumstances, and absolutes are more fluid than we like. A simple for instance is coming to Christ is an eternal rebirth by the Holy Spirit, except some walk away, seemingly the same as any other believer. Or Jesus forgives many lost sinners and condemns righteous appearing people, yet holds a standard stronger and more distinct than the pharisees could face.

I think these are eternal dilemmas about the difference between rebellion and perceiving and walking in rebellion which leads to repentance and reconciliation. We like saying God sees the heart, while admitting the heart is sinful and lost. Deception is equally subtle, the deceived convinced they are right to the degree of risking their own souls condemning the innocent to Hell.

So I think eternity with free will will not remove these dilemmas. Satan fell in eternity, so believing the eternal realities are simple and sorted, is just not facing what we know of the tensions of existence itself. Why are we sharing Christ throne if judgement is no longer required?

 

[Nancy]

It especially struck me that it seems the city was built there, mainly, because of the potential for $ that would (and did) come from that particular location. Even today, the "feel good" Mega Churches are never built out in pleasant, quiet country settings, but rather in the centers of commerce and wealthy populations.

So true abut the mega Church's. And seeing that Jesus said they thought they were "rich" and had need of nothing...commerce, lot's of money to be made.

 

[DPMartin]

And what about those, past, present, and future who. for various reasons (geographic isolation, premature death, mental incapacity etc.,) never get to see a Bible or otherwise never get to hear the Gospel Message?
Where do you place them in your 'only black or white' contention?

Its God's choice whether or not to reveal Himself to anyone or not. He could reveal Himself to anyone He choses to can't He? and it His prerogative to do so, isn't it? even in Israel when the Beloved Son of God was with them in the flesh, He said when asked by His disciples why parables:

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

so its whom its given to, which is God's choice even while people can hear Jesus speak clearly they still won't get it, let alone whom God doesn't chose to reveal His Word at all to. the message has reached the whole globe by the way and some countries out law it, even Rome out lawed it. its not about the world its about the faithful.

 

[bbyrd009]

See pages 18 and 19 of my blog
My voyage in search of the hidden treasure of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Ah, why?

 

[Mike Waters]

Ah, why?

Because I have nothing better to do.

 

[Mike Waters]

its whom its given to, which is God's choice even while people can hear Jesus speak clearly they still won't get it, let alone whom God doesn't chose to reveal His Word at all to.

So much for "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".
Do I sense a touch of hyper Calvinism?

 

[Base12]

See pages 18 and 19 of my blog
My voyage in search of the hidden treasure of the Kingdom of Heaven.

What you wrote on those pages is one of my biggest Pet Peeves regarding how folks interpret Scripture.

You went 'outside' of the Bible to look for more Enlightenment instead of letting the Word of God tell you simply what the word 'Hell' means...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

Those were the words of Jesus and He just spilled the beans on this whole 'Hell, Gehenna, Sheol, Tartarus, Hades, etc.' business.

It's so simple, even a Caveman could understand it...

Hell is where Children come from... and that means ALL OF US HERE.

In other words, we *all* had a previous life of being a rotten, filthy SINNER and we were deemed Unsaved and ended up here again. This is why life can seem more unfair for some than others. Each has a different 'sow' to 'reap' according to the Just Sentence handed out on Judgement Day.

What Jesus said what absolutely literal. Christians have always been TOLD what Hell means. Most Christians are told that those tossed into the Lake of Fire are 'tormented forever' or 'are annihilated'. Many have drank the Koolaid without a second thought as to if these things be True or not.

They never bothered to research it for themselves via the Bible.

Those tossed into the Lake of Fire pass *through* the Fire...

Ezekiel 20:26
"And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD"

There are many verses that explain this concept. Bottom line...

Option #2 is correct according to the simple words of Jesus.

I am not a Universalist as they haven't completed their homework yet, but they are closer to the Truth than most.

I get it though...

It's not an easy door to walk through. Once You realize that God Truly is Love, You will be hated and shunned like I am.

You will have constant insults hurled at you like this...

It is apparent that you DO NOT understand

1 Tim. 4[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

You are fulfilling the above prophecy!!

^^^
That is the typical response you will get from so called 'loving' people that have the nerve to call themselves a Christian.

But whatever. So I won't be 'buddies' with the hateful "Christians" in the World. So be it.

John 15:25
"But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause"

 

[Helen]

You won't be the only respondent to this thread who can only see the two extremes of black and white, nevertheless there remains the question of the "many mansions" in God's house, each of which has to be occupied by someone.

That has been one of my 'pet' subjects ....
( BTW maybe you should start the thread that you once had about "What are those 'chips' ( things that bug us ) on your shoulder".... we all have 'pet/favourite subjects and also subjects which irritate us )

I believe in the original "mansion" means places .

Jesus went to 'prepare A place for us' I believe it is a personal place that only we can fill. At that time...we will hear - " Well done thou good and faithful servant..." ...or we will not. As you know, I do not believe in any 'lost' salvation...but I do believe in a lost place/position.

( for me...this is the race that we run...and keep our eye on the prize )

 

[Helen]

[QUOTE="Willie T, post: 681989, member: 7611"
I guess this is one of the reasons I so detest the habit we have of labeling and pigeon-holing people into convenient little boxes, wherein we can safely and comfortably deal with them in the manner we have previously decided "that kind of person" deserves... be it bad or good.[/QUOTE]

Agree...its one of the things that bugs me most.

Im with you 150% on this...

 

[Mike Waters]

You went 'outside' of the Bible to look for more Enlightenment instead of letting the Word of God tell you simply what the word 'Hell' means...

No so.
I simply stayed within Dr Robert Youngs' Literal Translation which always uses the words Gehenna, Tartarus, and Hades in the twenty three other places where lazy translations use the word Hell in the New Testament.

 

[amadeus]

Speaking of Eyesalve...

John 9:6
"When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay"

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

 

[amadeus]

"day and night" appears to be a reference back to eternal, without a break. The idea that night exists in the Lords presence, suggests a source of light separate from Him alone. The Lord does not sleep, so the phrase only makes sense refering back to earth and the experience those brought out of the tribulation had been living under. Our understanding of night and day is the subjective experience of a planet rotating, which is not applicable to the Lord and His presence.

"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:11-12

 

[NayborBear]

2) Will the whole thing be resolved in an ‘Ultimate Reconciliation’?

I be more inclined to this option. Although, I would not have worded it as "Ultimate Reconciliation."

Daniel 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

And? In a little more detail?

Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As we can see here? EVERYONE is "judged" from the "Book of Life!"

Yes? Even those professing "eternal security!"

The ONLY ones' "exempt?" Is here:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Base12]

No so.

Yes you did. Go back and read Page 18 of your own writing.

You wrote about the word Hell being Pagan...

"The word was used to transfer a Pagan concept to Christian Theology"

Again, You took Mankind's so called 'Pagan Concept' and applied it to the Bible as if it were fact, rather than letting the Bible tell you what Hell means.

You even went on to imply that basically the Bible was not inspired by God, but rather tainted by 'limited knowledge' of the Biblical authors.

I noticed amadeus, Willie T and Helen liked your comment, so I'm assuming they agree that the Bible was not inspired by God, but rather tainted by 'limited knowledge' of the Biblical authors.

Oh well. I guess I now know where you folks stand now.

 

[marks]

I feel that to live for only the Black or the White of life, is to largely miss God. It is also my opinion that many of us totally misunderstand the "lukewarm" words. (Why in the world would God ever prefer us to be Cold in our understanding or delivery of His Word?)

Lukewarm is innoculated against the Gospel.

 

[marks]

As we can see here? EVERYONE is "judged" from the "Book of Life!"

And everyone who is not found written in the Book of Life is tossed into the Lake of Fire.

We are judged according to our works, but none who are not written in God's Book of Life will escape the Lake of Fire.

Much love!